We are designing support weapons for US Cold War(1980s) range.
TOW was an essential weapons system. If you had to choose which would it be?
Do you want it vehicle mounted - ie a MUTT ?
Or do you favour a ground mount with 3 crew ?
Which works best with CWC rules?
How were they deployed in real life?
If mostly on foot, then ground-pounders.
If mostly on vehicle, then in a jeep (or maybe an M113?)
If roughly 50/50, then both!
Edit: Just found my copy of Cold War Commander - there are entries in the main US army cold war list for TOW in infantry, jeeps and M150/M901s.
Edit 2: Although no idea what an M150 is?
In real life Lt Infantry and airbourne woul use ground and Jeep mounts. Armoured units mounted it on M113 the M150 varient- initally on the open mount,the M150 varient. then on the hammerhead as M901. So both ground and jeep mounts will be needed.
I knew you would want both! :)
Ground mount will come first.
In fact it may require 3 sculpts - ground with crew, jeep with seated figure and M113 with torso.
Just to be difficult (as always):
US airborne had TOW mounted on Mechanised Mules (4x4 quad bikes) fired whilst mounted to the 'Mule' but with 3 crew standing (or crouching) firing it. There was also a .50cl variant and a RCLR variant - although these latter were quickly discontinued as they were far from recoilless and tended to blow the 'mule' over when fired at the wrong angle (a great design fault!). Some of the images of the .50cl being fired are spectacular with the 'gunner' standing straight out at right-angles to the hull of the mule!
The 9th High Technology Light Infantry (a favorite of mine) also had TOW mounted on the frames of their Desert Patrol Vehicle (DPV), formerly called the Fast Attack Vehicle (FAV) - a fast-attack dune-buggy, also used by US Special Forces (in Gulf War 1). The TOW were designed to be fired mounted or dismounted, but as the FAVs had a tendency to roll over a lot (over enthusiastic crews being to blame), the TOW had special coupling devices that allowed them to disconnect with no damage in such circumstance. Like the 'mule' a recoilless rifle variant was also trialled but flipped the FAV over when fired (so was also abandoned - the Airborne & Infantry apparently didn't think to share their test experiences)
But I suspect that these will be 'special edition' sculpts for an additional development of the US range ;D
QuoteThe 9th High Technology Light Infantry (a favorite of mine) also had TOW mounted on the frames of their Desert Patrol Vehicle (DPV), formerly called the Fast Attack Vehicle (FAV) - a fast-attack dune-buggy, also used by US Special Forces (in Gulf War 1). The TOW were designed to be fired mounted or dismounted, but as the FAVs had a tendency to roll over a lot (over enthusiastic crews being to blame), the TOW had special coupling devices that allowed them to disconnect with no damage in such circumstance. Like the 'mule' a recoilless rifle variant was also trialled but flipped the FAV over when fired (so was also abandoned - the Airborne & Infantry apparently didn't think to share their test experiences)
DPV? Oh yes please. Although I wonder how hard they would be to make. Lots of empty space between the chassis & bodywork bars
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/US_Navy_020413-N-5362A-013_U.S._Navy_SEALs_%28SEa%2C_Air%2C_Land%29_operate_Desert_Patrol_Vehicles_%28DPV%29_while_preparing_for_an_upcoming_mission.jpg/640px-US_Navy_020413-N-5362A-013_U.S._Navy_SEALs_%28SEa%2C_Air%2C_Land%29_operate_Desert_Patrol_Vehicles_%28DPV%29_while_preparing_for_an_upcoming_mission.jpg)
Good for a Mad Max/post-apocalyptic wasteland setting as well!
To quote Leon "all votes will be counted"
Meantime Techno has his sights set on sculpting the basic 1983 era range of USA, Soviet, and a few possible additions to the Falklands Brits to equipt for Cold War.
We have not orders beyond that brief.
Having played moderns since the 1980's was ultramodern I've used TOW from a ground mount in my US army (some of which is approaching 40 years old...yikes) exactly zero times.
Certainly in the early 1980's in western europe I would have thought a heavy bulky weapon would have been used from a mobile mount so that you could "shoot and scoot".
I don't recall using ground-mount TOWs either in 40 years of gaming, even though you get tons of them in the Heroics & Ros US heavy weapons pack. Isis and/or other factions used them recently in Syria so they are around.
Priority of production should be:
Landrover+ Vigilant (oops sorry keyboard slipped)
M150 (M113 + TOW)
M901 (can also double up as M981 FISTV FOO vehicle)
M151 Jeep+ TOW
ground mount
VCI+TOW (Dutch)
Kraka+TOW (West German Paras)
Landrover 110+ TOW/MAPATS (IDF Paras)
Landrover 88 or 109 with TOW (some Arab states I think)
The Yanks - in my experience - like things mobile. They laughed at us humping the Milan.
Now I have see TOW in prep positions, but the signature blast would counsel a mobile mount.
However, circa 1983 we don't yet have MUTT in the Pendraken MT section. and Phil wants to wrap up the figure sculpts- perhaps a head/torso figure for M113?
As I said its Leon's call.
A quicksearch gives the mass of a ground mount with a TOW missle fitted is about 90 kg. each missle is 25kg (a bag of cement. not sure how far I could lug one of those).
I can't see a crew of 4 wanting to carry one of those very far. Thats what Dragon was for.
For the M150 use the M125 from the vietnam range as the base and sculpt a TOW launcher on a pillar mount with a figure. If done right it can then be used on the back of a jeep when that gets done.
Good idea. Could be used on most 4x4 types as well
Many thanks for this. Leon has responded by prioritising the MUTT. I have recommenced the only TOW sculpt will be vehicle mounted, and the M47 Dragon will be Phil's next project.
Mutts would be very nice.
Short wheelbase Landrovers too for the Danes, and I suspect others too:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/a7/15/0ca715fcf51e26e01c7c23b932eaf71d.jpg
The Landrovers with 106mm recoilless rifles would be appreciated too.
That picture is ideal for the sculpt. Not sure what you would do for different uniformed figures.
On and the moubnt list at the top is missing the YP408. I didn't kow that the AMX VCI was fitted with a TOW launcher.
Certainly not in French service and i suspect the Dutch had replaced theirs by the time the TOW was introduced. It is on one of the WG Jaguars (not aircraft).
Yes, both AMX and YP408 had TOW versions. Not many of the AMX though.
https://weaponsystems.net/system/77-AMX-PRAT
Notb seen that one before. Proposed head and torso would work there.
Quote from: Rhys on 07 February 2022, 09:10:25 AMThat picture is ideal for the sculpt. Not sure what you would do for different uniformed figures.
On and the mount list at the top is missing the YP408. I didn't know that the AMX VCI was fitted with a TOW launcher.
Dutch YPR-765 prat carried dismounts for their TOW as well as the mounted variants (which were armed with an Emerson TOW Under Armor "Hammerhead"-turret similar to the one of the M901 ITV).
I've used both in one of the big 6mm Cold War Commander games - the Defense of Hannover game. Having the dismounted TOW was helpful, in dense cover and a fixed defensive position (defending a steep riverbank against an amphibious East German river crossing).
The Dutch had serious amounts of TOW armed YP-765 PRAT's in their mechanised brigades by the mid 80's - 3 platoons of 4 YP-765 PRAT's in each YP-765 equipped mechanised battalion's combat support company:
https://www.orbat85.nl/reference/unit-organisation-and-equipment.html#painfbat-ypr (https://www.orbat85.nl/reference/unit-organisation-and-equipment.html#painfbat-ypr)
As well as a separate brigade level Anti-Tank company with no less than 6 platoons of 4 YP-765 PRAT's:
https://www.orbat85.nl/reference/unit-organisation-and-equipment.html#paatcie (https://www.orbat85.nl/reference/unit-organisation-and-equipment.html#paatcie)
The YP-408 equipped units had slightly less numbers of TOW's, but these were being phased out in favour of the YP-765 by 1985:
https://www.orbat85.nl/reference/unit-organisation-and-equipment.html#painfbat-yp
I've used them to "rough up" a few Warpac regiments on the table over the years using MSH rules in 6mm ;)
Thanks for that Danish Landy/TOW picture too, clearest one of that system I have seen.
We've had the M151 Jeep sculpted now so that'll be going down to Phil this week for the TOW to be built on the back. We'll do it as a basic model as well with the roof section.
Beyond that we can look at adding other TOW options down the line. We'll also go through the master moulds and find the recoilless rifles that we've had for about 4 years and finally get those sorted out...!
I'll keep an eye out for it !
Good to hear about the Mutts.
I need those with LMGs (.30 cal), 60mm mortar, 106mm RR, and radio for my early, US Armored Cav units from the 1950s+.
Of course, the M38 Jeep, and/or Mutt, with a Davy Crockett nuclear weapon launched from a recoilless rifle.
A tripod ground mount with the 5 crew would be nice too, for those carried by M113 APCs.
In the 1950s and early 1960s, NATO was outmatched by the Soviets, so tactical nukes were believed to be the only way of stopping the Warsaw Pact hordes.
These little "pocket-nukes" were surprisingly underpowered, and were meant primarily to kill and incapacitate the the enemy's troops, but largely leave their armored vehicles unharmed.