This may have been asked before ... but ... can units who have only Anti-Personnel (AP) shooting suppress armoured units? Played a game recently where we allowed infantry and MGs to shoot at AFVs, although they couldn't hurt the AFV without Anti-Tank (AT) rounds they could still cause suppression and then fall back effects. Is this correct?
From memory you can as follows:
6+ to hit, the AFV then gets roll armour saves as normal, then any failed saves need another 6+ just to cause suppression, no hits.
This was to replicate the effect of AP fire hitting visions slots etc. I've also read of instances of small calibre HE being fired at AFVs to make them thing it was artillery hitting them, causing them to skedaddle from their positions.
Hope this helps?
Don't know about Rules. But. from accounts... coming under ANY sort of Fire would indicate that AFV had become a visible Target... so do what? Pull back probably sensible. 'Something Evil,This Way Comes'.
Small arms fire would make Commander button up and could damage optics. Mortars, same. Depends on what 'suppression' rules import.
Reduced Situation Awareness... and Fear.
Interpret Your Rules... and if in a Group, Discuss.
Another one I remember reading from the Normandy campaign, was that if the crew heard small arms fire, they expected that the infantry might be closing with AT weapons, such as bazookas, PIAT's etc. So sensibly they would tend to pull back hopefully out of harms way.
There is also this about how German infantry tactics could possibly 'attack' a T-34:
QuoteThe infantry had access to armour piercing bullets. Riflemen were issued 10 rounds with S.m.K.H. bullets (Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Hart, pointed bullet with a hard core). Machine gunners had 100 such rounds. On command from the section leader, riflemen opened fire with these bullets from up to 400 meters and machine gunners from up to 1000 meters, aiming at hatches and vision slits to force enemy commanders to retreat into their tanks. This tactic would not disable the enemy tank, but it could blind it.
I can't speak for WW2, but later tanks were equipped with ranging machineguns.
There are anecdotes of less confident tank crews bailing out on hearing the rattle of machinegun bullets on the outside.
They "knew" what was coming next, and didn't want to stick about to experience it.
This allowed a cunning enemy to interdict enemy tank movement with its infantry machineguns.
You are correct Steve J.
You can use AP fire to attempt to suppress AFVs.
There is (apparently) a recorded case in Syria recently where a Insurgent HMG, using sustained close range fire from cover in a built-up area, not only activated all the reactive armour on the turret of a Syrian Gov. T62 but also it stripped off a lot of the external fittings, such as the aerials and smoke projectors etc, and the commanders hatch mounted HMG. With the reactive armour triggered or damaged the tank crew withdrew pronto as they were now vulnerable to close range ATW fire.
Mark
Steve H. Not certain, but think the .50cal Ranging 'MG' was single shot use. I could well be wrong. Sounds a bit 'mythic'. But... as said, once a very dubious tank crew knew that they had become a 'Target'...
The 50 cal Ranging gun fired in 3 round bursts, and was not counted as an MG. However I have seen a manual which in effect said ERA - use your 50 cal on it.
QuoteThe 50 cal Ranging gun fired in 3 round bursts, and was not counted as an MG. However I have seen a manual which in effect said ERA - use your 50 cal on it.
Why not just use the big gun?
Quote from: Raider4 on 30 December 2021, 02:54:38 PMWhy not just use the big gun?
Quite a lot less BANG! :)
Having watched vid of Chieftans, etc. firing, blast, etc. might indicate that after maybe a couple of rounds shoot... 'scoot' would be a preferable option. Ex Tankies, please correct! ;)
BKC IV Page 35 mentions it in the Calculating Firing Section, saying you can fire AP at Hard targets and AT at Soft targets, they will not cause casualties but can inflict suppression.
Just follow the normal process of To Hit, Save, Suppression, just don't remove unsaved hits.
Thanks all, very informative as usual.
Hi
My first 'trade' in the army was as a Chieftain gunner. The .50 ranging gun as mentioned above by m'lud Kermit, fired a burst of 3 tracer rounds after hitting a pedal on the floor of the turret (at the gunners feet). It was mainly used to estimate the range when firing High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds from the main armament (which had a maximum range of 8000 metres if memory serves, the HESH rounds that is, not the .50 ranging gun). HESH rounds fired at a lot less velocity than Amoured Piercing Discarding Sabot (APDS) rounds (using 'half bagged charges' as opposed to a full bagged charge for APDS) and were less accurate, hence the use of the ranging gun as you didn't want to waste HESH rounds when ranging in. I do remember talk at the time suggesting that enemy crew might as well try to get out when hit by .50 ranging rounds otherwise they were as good as dead. Hitting a target with a HESH round or an APDS round is VERY SATISFYING, and yes they mainly did hit.
Any half decent crew commander would be very unlikely to fire more than 2 or 3 main armament rounds from the same position.
By the way one of the things I find very annoying with BKC is using the abbreviation AP for 'anti-personnel', AP IS 'armour piecing'. :P
Cheers Paul
QuoteBy the way one of the things I find very annoying with BKC is using the abbreviation AP for 'anti-personnel', AP IS 'armour piecing'. :P
Cheers Paul
You are not alone
I get the AP = armour piercing.
But what two abbreviations for BKC would you suggest for attacks vs Infantry and Armour?
Quote from: T13A on 30 December 2021, 06:49:18 PMBy the way one of the things I find very annoying with BKC is using the abbreviation AP for 'anti-personnel', AP IS 'armour piecing'.
Me too. I write anti-personnel as A/P rather than AP in the BKC lists I've written in an attempt to distinguish.
QuoteI get the AP = armour piercing.
But what two abbreviations for BKC would you suggest for attacks vs Infantry and Armour?
Inf and Arm? S and H for soft and hard? Anything but AP for anti-personnel. I have to stop, for a fraction of a second, every time.
I believe usual descriptions for small arms ammo are 'Ball' and 'Tracer' (Ba / Tr?) . AP is always an Armour Piercing round. Hope helps. :)
T13A. Good info! Curious about ammo for ranging .50... why did it stop at 3 rounds? Surely belt fed not a clip?
Back in 70s, I used WRG Rules for 'Modern' Microarmour... comment seems to confirm rules. I did think they were great for Armour... but pathetic for Infantry.
WRG. 'Western' 120s, 105s firing APDS were Deadly... never bothered with other amo and 'Russian' sb 115s... much less so.
Not being 'in the know', I cannot see why the change to smooth bore guns... except, maybe barrel life / cost and computer / laser ranging?
My understanding is that smooth bore is much better for fin stabilised discarding sabot.
It also allows for missiles to be fired.
Thge ranging gun fired in 3 round clips. Prior to it's introduction crews fired 3 main rounds - one up, one down and one on in that order. Given the balistic drop on the L7 was 2m in 3000 I suspect that the over and on rounds would both hit. On WRG rules I used to use a squadron of Scorpions as HESH in those rules had KO as a result.
Quote from: fred. on 30 December 2021, 08:36:40 PMI get the AP = armour piercing.
But what two abbreviations for BKC would you suggest for attacks vs Infantry and Armour?
S - soft
H - hard
Quote from: T13A on 30 December 2021, 06:49:18 PMBy the way one of the things I find very annoying with BKC is using the abbreviation AP for 'anti-personnel', AP IS 'armour piecing'. :P
The whole "what do we call non-armour piercing fire?" has been debated long & hard Paul and to-date nobody has managed to come up with a good 2 letter alternative. I am open to options :)
Spearhead uses AT & AI :-\
AI being Anti-Infantry I assume?
But our Anti-personell also covers expulsive ammunition rounds, so will damage more than just infantry (ie. other Soft targets) ... tricky
You mean like trucks that are neither Infantry or Personnel ;)
Well as I and flamingopig0 suggested, H for Hard (armour, bunkers, etc) and S for Soft (infantry, heavy weapons, gun crews, jeeps, trucks and lightly built buildings)?
Just a thought.
Not familiar with BKC in its latest iteration but it looks like the author might have used standard NATO/UK MOD abbreviations for which AP is the acronym for a number of things including armour-piercing and anti-personnel. The UK MOD, at least before I retired in 2010, followed NATO protocols but had the addition of APers for anti-personnel, presumably to avoid confusions. NATO standard;D
Maybe Hard Fire (HF) and Soft Fire (SF) might work, but still not 100% convinced myself.
If it needs to be two letters, how about HT and ST - Hard Target/ Soft Target?
Quote from: Ithoriel on 01 January 2022, 02:03:31 PMIf it needs to be two letters, how about HT and ST - Hard Target/ Soft Target?
That would be better if, as you say, it has to be two letters.
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 01 January 2022, 04:22:05 PMThat would be better if, as you say, it has to be two letters.
Have a look an UK MOD Acronyms and Abbreviations. If it isn't in there, I'd say it doesn't exist. There must be one in there for what is needed. Basic natures include Armour Piercing (AP), Anti-Personnel (APers), Anti-Material (AM), Anti-Personnel Anti-Material (APAM), Armour Piercing High Explosive (APHE), Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary (APHEI), White Phosphorous (WP) etc, etc., before you get onto specific types of anti armour natures an so on.
I'm not a BKC user but I would have thought the ammunition nature and the weapon system, and its ability to defeat the target type, was the key feature, not the target per se.
Perhaps I don't understand the issue properly.
Quote from: John Cook on 02 January 2022, 09:38:24 AMHave a look an UK MOD Acronyms and Abbreviations. If it isn't in there, I'd say it doesn't exist. There must be one in there for what is needed. Basic natures include Armour Piercing (AP), Anti-Personnel (APers), Anti-Material (AM), Anti-Personnel Anti-Material (APAM), Armour Piercing High Explosive (APHE), Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary (APHEI), White Phosphorous (WP) etc, etc., before you get onto specific types of anti armour natures an so on.
I'm not a BKC user but I would have thought the ammunition nature and the weapon system, and its ability to defeat the target type, was the key feature, not the target per se.
Perhaps I don't understand the issue properly.
It is about using easily understood and unambiguous terminology- I suspect that to most people AP means armour piercing.
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 02 January 2022, 03:24:35 PMIt is about using easily understood and unambiguous terminology-
Tell that to Phil Barker!
AP to me is Armour Piecing
QuoteAP to me is Armour Piecing
and me
Quote from: Orcs on 02 January 2022, 04:49:45 PMTell that to Phil Barker!
I was reading DBMM online and the computer asked me if "I wanted this Indonesian document translated"- and that isn't made up.
Acronyms smacronyms ... don't think anyone I've ever used hasn't had another meaning. Who watched the recent Doctor Who series? What the Flux ... or did I misread that title?