We had our annual boiler serviced yesterday and I had an interesting chat with the engineer about them being phased out. Some point of note:
- Heat pumps. You need a very big garden for the ones close the the surface (out garden is 6m x 20m approx) or to sink a big hole in the ground, which apparently is not too practicable around here.
- Heat exchangers. This is where it gets interesting! They are pretty big and take up a lot of space. Not too big an issue to be honest but...
- You really need solar panels on the roof to run the fan as it works 24/7 or near as damn it.
- You need what is effectively and old fashioned hot water tank/immersion heater to store your hot water for heating or washing.
- You need to replace all of our radiators with ones that are three panels rather than the current two. They stick out a lot apparently, which in a small house becomes a bit of an issue or...
- ... You have those wall mounted heaters you often see when on holiday that blow hot or cold air as required ...
- ... Under floor heating, which is not an option in our house as we have raised wooden floors on brick pillars.
- The water is heated to about 40C which is somewhat lower than most current boilers heat the water too (it's better to run them hot for life expectancy of the unit and to use less gas).
So with all of the above, I'm rather hoping they come up with good clean green hydrogen boilers!
Thanks for that. Pretty much as i thought. New-Builds, Re-builds could accommodate, but .. conversion of my 60s Bungalow out of the question.
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 04 November 2021, 09:01:06 AM
Thanks for that. Pretty much as i thought. New-Builds, Re-builds could accommodate, but .. conversion of my 60s Bungalow out of the question.
Not sure current style of New Build could accomodate it.
We had a smallish development of 3 and 4 bed executive homes round here (£650K upwards) built over the last 18 months.
They are relatively small houses and we had a look round the back of the show house when they were closed and the main part of the rear garden was 23' x 11'. The entire footprint of the house, garden and garage would fit into our front garden once and the back garden twice.
So no idea where they would put the heat pump. Also NONE have solar panels despite facing south.
So perhaps the answer is the same as my plan for the car. Replace it with a new one 12 months before they stop making conventional ones. Then hope it lasts you out.
We have one small water heater on the wall for the main shower (no tank - heat as use); anything else, we use a kettle on the gas cooker. Mind you, we have got three air-cons and four fans....
I've been looking at replacing my gas combi-boiler with an electric one for two or three years now. Cheaper to install, more expensive to run, partly because electricity is more heavily taxed than gas (go figure!).
So far, the gas engineer has managed to keep the gas one pottering along.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 November 2021, 10:18:26 AM
We have one small water heater on the wall for the main shower (no tank - heat as use); anything else, we use a kettle on the gas cooker. Mind you, we have got three air-cons and four fans....
Wouldn't think you have much use for central heating over there FK
That must explain its absence. The downstairs shower is unheated too; there are a few months of the year when it takes courage to wash one's hair early in the morning.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 November 2021, 10:18:26 AM
We have one small water heater on the wall for the main shower (no tank - heat as use); anything else, we use a kettle on the gas cooker. Mind you, we have got three air-cons and four fans....
I think it might be slightly warmer were you are kitty, than in the uk :D
I've been pondering this myself but just doesn't seem too practical at this stage. I hope the technology develops a bit more by the time our boiler gives up. Due to get it serviced so hoping the previous owners left it in good shape. Seems like it would require some fairly major renovation work to install geothermal/heat pump systems. Do need to sort insulation out though. We're able to keep the living room cosy enough but the rest of the house gets baltic unless we blast all the radiators which is a real waste of energy and even then you can feel a bit of cool air from the loft. Doesn't help either that we've a drafty hole in the kitchen ceiling where the shower has been leaking through though... X_X
Think I'll just invest in more coats, preferably unchewed.
The momentum has now been created for the technology to meet the task, which I am sure that it will. Motivations in cost / tax etc will rebalance that side of the economy. I heard a program the other day that said battery technology will improve over the next 10 years to give fast charge and long mileage batteries, but they think that in 10 years, the current materials will mean that battery technology will plateau.
Every car advert now is for electric and some car plants are getting the huge investment needed to gear up to meet future demand.
Economy 7 type heating has been around for decades, maybe that sort of heating will get a new life.
The whole thing is going to be expensive, but likely a huge boost to the economy and growth. The opportunities are there for respective countries to convert this to a technology export advantage.
I've lived in two houses with Economy 7 heaters and they were rubbish compared to gas central heating! Time to move either to Iceland (no problems there with geothermal heating) or back to Nigeria (no problems with being cold, quite the opposite).
Quote from: Steve J on 04 November 2021, 05:00:18 PM
I've lived in two houses with Economy 7 heaters and they were rubbish compared to gas central heating! Time to move either to Iceland (no problems there with geothermal heating) or back to Nigeria (no problems with being cold, quite the opposite).
I agree about Economy 7 Steve - expensive and not flexible enough for the British climate.
We have also been looking at boiler replacement technology - Ground Source is no-go for us (garden too small and we live on a very rocky hill, with Roman mines in it - so too risky) and there is also the space required to house it and the cost was/is eye-watering especially with the added installation elements.
Solar is an option but not reliable enough and not sufficient roof space to really deliver the required watts. Likewise wind-turbines - we were advised against it as the vibrations (when attached to a roof or wall) can be very strong.
It's a bit like the electric car problem - we have no off-street parking, so nowhere to safely charge an electric or hybrid vehicle.
Living in a City going forward will require a massive shift in infrastructure if the climate-change requirements are going to be even partly met.
Quote from: Norm on 04 November 2021, 04:54:35 PM
The whole thing is going to be expensive, but likely a huge boost to the economy and growth. The opportunities are there for respective countries to convert this to a technology export advantage.
Its going to be at our personal expense, and I suspect our economy will suffer more than those who don't bother. What's the point of us paying through the nose for this technology and all its disadvantages - when we create about 1% of the greenhouse gas.
Unless the USA, China, Russia , and India and the other big CO2 producers come aboard. The whole thing is fairly pointless
Quote from: Orcs on 04 November 2021, 06:49:10 PM
Unless the USA, China, Russia , and India and the other big CO2 producers come aboard. The whole thing is fairly pointless
Worse than pointless since some of us will be faced with very limited and expensive choices. Once again the ruling class who all live in big houses seem to forget that those (5million?) of us who are flat dwellers wont be able to charge up electric vehicles or switch out gas boilers without massive effort by the freeholders/managing agents to make it so or prevent total chaos. And as any flat dweller knows its near impossible to get those folks to do anything let alone anything complex or difficult. heat pumps Hah!
And while I am on a rant, for those inclined to glue themselves to road surfaces, a big problem for those of us in modern super well insulated flats with solar gain windows is the unbearable heat in summer. my bedroom doesn't dip below 23C with all windows open in middle of night from April through September. Several of us are trying to get Aircon fitted (freeholder says no) .
The only significant climate change reductions would come with a big decrease in the human (and meat eating pet) population and thats even less likely.
Oh, the big reduction will come, alright. It'll be bloody and mean the end of everything good, but if that's the way we choose to do it....
it'll
Quote from: Steve J on 04 November 2021, 05:00:18 PM
I've lived in two houses with Economy 7 heaters and they were rubbish compared to gas central heating! Time to move either to Iceland (no problems there with geothermal heating) or back to Nigeria (no problems with being cold, quite the opposite).
I had economy 7 heating in my flat. I had been there about 6 months and calling in with the meter reading each time i got the vastly overestimated bill.. The third bill was actually a reading by the meter man. When I got the bill I had no usage at all on the peak rate. I thought that was strange.
When the next overestimated bill came I gave them the meter reading again, and noted that the peak rate had not changed. The eter was in a huge cupboard that I had converted to a painting area. The next time the meter was due to change from off peak to peak I sat and watched it. The relay gave a loud click as it had always done and the small needle that showed what tarrif you are on flickered and dropped back to off peak.
So the meter was not switching over. I was only paying off peak. Each quarter I gave them the meter readings and they duly sent me a bill with zero off peak charges. This continued for over a year. I thought they must notice some time. I then found out from the TV that in the case of a faulty meter they could only charge me 1 years back payments based on previous usage, so there was no advantage to me notifying them as I was already on a years back payments.
I duly submitted the readings each quarter, the meter was read once a year by the meter man and 5 years later I sold the flat, and they still had not noticed.
Quote from: DecemDave on 05 November 2021, 08:28:03 AM
And while I am on a rant, for those inclined to glue themselves to road surfaces, a big problem for those of us in modern super well insulated flats with solar gain windows is the unbearable heat in summer. my bedroom doesn't dip below 23C with all windows open in middle of night from April through September. Several of us are trying to get Aircon fitted (freeholder says no) .
Passive House type insulation would deal with that. The council in Huddersfield managed to get some built, and they didn't cost anymore than normal houses to build, but their energy bills are ~£100 a year.
Yes, indeed, the human race is well into Overshoot, the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet is ~600,000,000 humans, and that is on a fully functioning planet. Latest UN data shows only 3.5% of the planet's surface is untainted by human activity, so even that figure is moot.
I wouldn't worry about heat pumps too much, this civilisation will not make it that far before all the gas boilers pack up - the technology on this website will be far more useful:
https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/obsolete-technology.html
particularly relevant to this discussion:
https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/02/heating-people-not-spaces.html
Interestingly many places in Japan still use the old "heat the person" style of heating. Most homes are designed to deal with the hot and humid summers to escape the heat, and being quite small don't tend to have heating and cooling systems. So in winter tend to wrap up in the house and gather around radiant heat sources like kotatsu tables, which are basically a table with a heater underneath and a blanket over it.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58fd82dbbf629ab224f81b68/1580374659620-2HKIFNE3HQRDWWMHCOWV/family-kotatsu.jpg?format=1000w)
Thankyou for that, didn't know about them. The future of wargaming and painting tables are now secured in a post-collapse world 8)
There's also a Spanish version called a mesa camilla which is similar but more raised for chairs. I'm sure other warm weather cultures have similar ones.
I am tempted to make one out of an old table if I can find a suitable heater at a reasonable price. Don't think my western legs could handle sitting on the floor at a low table for any significant length of time, though probably less heat escape on a low floor one than a raised chair one. I've seen people make them out of Ikea coffee tables and old blankets. It's just getting a suitable heater that works in a confined space without risk is the expensive part.
Quote from: mmcv on 05 November 2021, 05:11:46 PM
There's also a Spanish version called a mesa camilla which is similar but more raised for chairs. I'm sure other warm weather cultures have similar ones.
I am tempted to make one out of an old table if I can find a suitable heater at a reasonable price. Don't think my western legs could handle sitting on the floor at a low table for any significant length of time, though probably less heat escape on a low floor one than a raised chair one. I've seen people make them out of Ikea coffee tables and old blankets. It's just getting a suitable heater that works in a confined space without risk is the expensive part.
Whats wrong with an electric blanket?
Quote from: Orcs on 05 November 2021, 05:16:49 PM
Whats wrong with an electric blanket?
It might work, but it's a slightly different system since then it's heating the blanket and radiating the heat from that, whereas these systems have a heater on the underside of the table typically that create a warm zone beneath the table that the blanket helps trap. With an electric blanket a lot of the heat would be wasted on the bits draped over the table (there's usually a double table top with the blanket sandwiched between them) so wouldn't be as effective.
Looks like there's a similar concept in Afghanistan - a Korsi, according to SultanBev's article above.
You are a supernova!
I'm not that bright...But I do explode ( >:()* from time to time. ;)
Cheers - Phil. :)
*...Now where shall I put my rant about Von's brand new mobile phone ?.....EIGHT blanking hours to receive a text message "with your one time pin number..valid for 20 minutes"....Gimme strength..... :'( :'( :'(
"pin number" - urgh! KILL!
Are all kittys this pedantic ? :'( :'( :-*
Personal Identification Number number .... as opposed to House Number number .... Account Number number .... so many numbers in our lives today we need to identify which we are talking about :)
Techno Towers doesn't have a number...(Just a Welsh 'name').....The road doesn't even have name.
We do have a postcode which covers goodness knows (12?) how many properties over about 3 miles.
Fine by me. :P
Cheers - Phil ;)
Ok Phil - so your are a name and NOT A NUMBER
But I am a number...
My number is 4.
Quote from: Techno II on 06 November 2021, 02:57:41 PM
But I am a number...
My number is 4.
Dread to think of the gruesome fates of previous 3... ;)
Gas boiler gave out. After about 8 weeks (landlord nagged) its being replaced today. God knows what he'll want to put the rent up to next year.
Flat is absolutely freezing with doors and windows open While they work.
Had ours serviced today, thankfully still in pretty good shape. Expensive boiler work is the last thing we'd need.
Was discussing the new policy of replacing Gas with heat exchangers, etc. with a relative. Apparently, the new Radiators must not be situated under windows! That is totally OUT for us!
B****y Crazy! >:(
I can't imagine where they could go, other than under a window, in most of our rooms.
QuoteWas discussing the new policy of replacing Gas with heat exchangers, etc. with a relative. Apparently, the new Radiators must not be situated under windows! That is totally OUT for us!
B****y Crazy! >:(
I can't see how the heat exchanger would know the location of the radiators.
Could be in error. Looking up on Google, no mention apart from traditional placing under windows being un-necessary with double glazing.
However... radiators from heat exchange system might need to be significantly larger. Less water needing to be heated but with greater surface area to give same heating.
Basically, Heat Exchangers rely on having to heat less water as they don't have the 'oomph' of a gas boiler.
Our radiators are 60s... single bank of pipes, thick metal.
Many more recent radiators are 'double' banked and thinner metal.
For same output... radiators in a heat exchange system might need to be 'triple' banked. Therefore 'wider' and maybe more of them.
I don't know. Just do NOT want the things!