Thought I'd document how I plan an army. Mostly 'cos I have no idea how other people do it.
1) Get an ideaThe promised Peninsula range made me think about a Spanish army. My Nappies are all late war, 1813-15, but I have a hankering for a white uniformed, funny Grenadier cap, regular Spanish force.
2) OrganisationTo the books! Spanish infantry bttn was 4 companies of 188 men - 3 bttns to a regiment; the first 2 companies of the 1st Bttn being Grenadiers. Pencil in 72 figures per bttn. Light bttns 6 companies of 130 - so 72 figures is not too bad either. Yes, I know Spanish regiments were understrength, but I like big bttns.
Make a note of any specific units I want included (for example I had to have the 1/2 regiment of the 14th Polish Cuirassiers), and anything I won't have. I usually eschew guard units (except for the Prussians and Russians when I only have guard) and I have an unreasonable dislike of hussars in favour of light dragoons, chevau legere or chasseurs. In this case I wanted the regular army, so wasn't fussed about guerrillas. The Irish regiments are possible, but not necessary.
3) Order of Battle For 1813, the natural place to look is Vittoria. However 5 regiments of Morillo's division were just 4,500 men. This works out at 90 figures per rgt - 30 figures per bttn (or 45 if you assume 2 field bttns). Nah. By then, there may well have been some "British Uniformed " troops - which is not what I want. Search, search, search - then the obvious answer is Romana's troops from Denmark in 1807.* OK, this doesn't meet my late war criteria, but appeals to me as a corps of regular Spanish troops. Also, no Irish. :(
This 15,000 man outfit was:
- Cavalry Rgts: Rey (634), Infante (615), Algarbe (572)
- Dragoon Rgts: Almansa (598), Villavicosia (628)
- Line Infantry: Asturias (2103), Princesa (1969), Guadlalhara (2069), Zamora (2096)
- Light Infantry: 1st Barcelona (1266), 2nd Catalonia (1164)
- Artillery: 4 foot batteries
There's a surprise! Romana's infantry seemed to be at full strength. 72 figures per bttn it is! 4) Can Pendraken do it?Make a quick survey of the Pendraken catalogue to see if the figures are available ... or there are suitable proxies. (E.g. No use wanting to do the Russian Guard Preob ... Probz .. chaps in mitres until Pendraken expand the range.)
5) RatioThe force was 10667 infantry (80%) and 2748 cavalry (20%)
My Napoleonic forces are usually 700-800 infantry, and the ratios of infantry to cavalry in Romana's corps is not out of bounds. Actually, scaling it down, the whole corps would only be slightly bigger (1008 infantry) than the standard, but I'm going to be good.
InfantryAt 72 figures per bttn 10 bttns seems to be the right amount. That would seem to be nicely 3 rgts of foot and one of light - but which ones?
Line Infantry wore white uniforms with different facings. Asturias (green), Guadlalhara (black), Zamora (purple), Princesa (Black)
Light Infantry dark blue uniforms 1st Barcelona (yellow), 2nd Catalonia (yellow)
I'll drop one of the black faced regiments, and it doesn't matter which light infantry rgt I choose.
Cavalry
To preserve ratio, the 720 infantry should give me 180 cavalry. Hmmm. Each regiment at about 600 should be 60 figures per regiment, so 3 regiments.
Cavalry Rgts: dark blue with coloured facings: Rey (red), Infante (white), Algarve (yellow)
Dragoon Rgts: yellow uniforms with Almansa (sky blue), Villavicosia (green)
ArtilleryFor the infantry and cavalry, I've modelled about 2/3 of Romana's corps. The same ratio for artillery would be 2.7 batteries ... call it 3.
6) Final OOBGeneral Romana
Infantry Rgts Asturias, Zamora and Princesa. Each 3 bttns of 72 figures including 36 Grenadiers in the 1st Bttns.
Lt Infantry 1st Barcelona (72)
Cavalry Rey, Algarve, Almansa Dragoons (60 each)
Artillery 3 x foot batteries.
Total 720 infantry, 180 cavalry, 6 guns.
7) Purchase plan 18 packs of NSP1/NSP2 for the line fusiliers
8 packs of NSP3 for the grenadiers
? Light infantry
8 packs of NSP16 cavalry
4 packs of NSP17 dragoons
2 packs NSP21 4pdr foot artillery
1 pack NSP23 8 pdr foot artillery
3 packs NSP30 limbers
3 packs NSP4 officers
1 pack NSP31 general
? Flags
Total cost ... let's not think about it. Just put together some batches and buy in sensible amounts monthly.
So that's how I do it. My Napoleonic Brits are Waterloo, Bavarians are Hanau, Prussians etc are Leipzig. I use the same method for other periods: 1944 German is a company of Pz Lehr, Carthaginians are from Lake Trasimene, ACW is based on Mill Springs.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_La_Romana%27s_division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_La_Romana%27s_division) [/list]
That was very interesting to read through. This is something almost all of us does in one form or another (multiple times) but a subject I have seen so little about.
Taking a project through all the decision points, from inspiration to research to choice of rules, choice of figures and, finally (finally !) the painted articles.
Thank you. Looking forward to see how others do this.
Phil
The big question in what is listed is "Can Pendraken do it?" If not then the whole Idea falls apart, at least in terms of 10mm.
Do you scrap the idea or do you then look for a different scale of figure to accomplish the idea? This is unfortunately what I have had to do.
The particular period I wished to do is now expanding in larger scales and will never be available in 10mm as far as I know.
1) Read/listen to something that peaks my interest (or reminds me that I'd previously been interested in it)
2) read/listen to a load more about it
3) start researching armies and ideas
4) source out period rules (if applicable)
5) put together some army lists for it
6) shelve it and hold off for a month to make sure it's something I really want to do
7) a) get side tracked by something else then come back to it down the line when it peaks my interest again. Return to step 1.
Or
7) b) despair that it's not doable in 10mm, spend some time looking for proxies and other manufacturers who may cover it, consider other scales, kick it way down the queue. Return to step 1.
Or
7) c) still interested so order an army pack and/or a few packs then get stuck into another ongoing project while waiting for it
8 ) get sidetracked by that other project for a while
9) order arrives, spend a little time sorting through and sticking to bases with blu tac
10) do a few bits from some other projects
11) return to step 1 and repeat
12) get interested in it again, paint up a few bases, then add to ongoing projects list.
13) after a few rounds of various projects get enough of this one done that it's getting close to a playable state
14) focus on it mostly exclusively for a while until in a playable state
15) play!
That's mostly my pattern. Interesting though with my latest purchase I managed to skip step 8 so far but haven't got to step 9 (just arrived the other day). Remains to be seen if it continues.
For me its:
1. See "must have" shinys
2. Buy "must have" shinys
3. Come up with a half-baked plan of what to do with the "must have" shinys
4. Realise I need more shiny's to complete plan
5. Read a book, watch a film, see a documentary about something entirely different
6. Remember "must have" shinys relating to this new thought
7. Switch to new project.
8. 5 years and 15 projects later remember this project.
9. Formulate new plan.
10. Need more figures. Original manufacturer has gone bust/ been bought out by a company that doesn't have the resources to manufacture and sell them/ is now only available from a market stall that only operates every third Tuesday and is based in Tajikistan.
11. Shelve project once more.
12. Two years later see new "Ooh! Shiny!" remember project and figures needed.
13. Buy additional figures.
14. Realise I have no idea of the detail of the previous plans.
15. Buy a set of rules that people are mentioning. Blu-tak figures to MDF bases. Play unsatisfactory game or three. Realise a) I don't like the rules b) I need more appropriate scenery (that no one makes) and c) I need to buy opposition figures because the person who bought the other half of the figures moved country/ continent/ hemisphere/ planet shortly after we bought the figures.
16. Shelve project for a couple of years.
17. Figures, terrain and rules suddenly available in the UK at sensible prices. Buy both sides, heaps of terrain and rulebook .... in a completely new scale.
18. Overwhelmed by the amount of stuff, lose heart and move on to new project.
Nicely thought out plan FSN :-bd
Though I suspect, purely from my own experience, that it may be modified somewhat as outlined by MMCV and Ithoriel.
Sounds a bit to organised for me, I tend to work on impulse.
Quote from: mmcv on 18 July 2021, 09:15:05 PM
1) Read/listen to something that peaks my interest (or reminds me that I'd previously been interested in it)
2) read/listen to a load more about it
3) start researching armies and ideas
4) source out period rules (if applicable)
5) put together some army lists for it
6) shelve it and hold off for a month to make sure it's something I really want to do
7) a) get side tracked by something else then come back to it down the line when it peaks my interest again. Return to step 1.
Or
7) b) despair that it's not doable in 10mm, spend some time looking for proxies and other manufacturers who may cover it, consider other scales, kick it way down the queue. Return to step 1.
Or
7) c) still interested so order an army pack and/or a few packs then get stuck into another ongoing project while waiting for it
8 ) get sidetracked by that other project for a while
9) order arrives, spend a little time sorting through and sticking to bases with blu tac
10) do a few bits from some other projects
11) return to step 1 and repeat
12) get interested in it again, paint up a few bases, then add to ongoing projects list.
13) after a few rounds of various projects get enough of this one done that it's getting close to a playable state
14) focus on it mostly exclusively for a while until in a playable state
15) play!
That's mostly my pattern. Interesting though with my latest purchase I managed to skip step 8 so far but haven't got to step 9 (just arrived the other day). Remains to be seen if it continues.
what is this step 15 ! you mention :o
Regards
Sean
For my most recent armies (Greek and Serbian for Balkan Wars 1912-1913; Hungarians and extra Austrians for Hungarian War of Independence 1848-1849) the process has been more the other way around. For the latter it was something like:
1. Get interested in major yet obscure conflict with very little information available in English.
2. Teach self enough Hungarian to read the Hungarian sources as well as those in German.
3. Spend three years researching 15 major battles and writing scenarios for them. (Drafts of most are in the files of the BBB group.)
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
4. Play them all repeatedly using proxy armies or a mate's excellent Pendraken forces. (Lots of AARs on the BBBBlog.)
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
5. Construct army list of troops needed for all the scenarios.
6. Find excellent painter who is booked up for a year (Richard Morrill - highly recommended).
7. Do uniform research.
8. Send figures and uniform instructions to painter, wait 15 months for beautiful armies to arrive. (Sorry - had to go 6mm as I already had the Austrians in that scale.) On parade here:
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2021/03/6mm-hungary-1848-army-on-parade.html
9. Do further research, rewrite scenarios accordingly.
10. Publish book on the war (two more in the works).
https://www.helion.co.uk/military-history-books/hungary-1848-the-winter-campaign.php
11. Spend another year or more doing final playtests of the scenarios for publication of wargame campaign book ... (in progress now).
For the Balkan Wars it was a bit easier. This was primarily Prof Konstantinos Travlos's project. He did all the research in the Greek and Turkish sources and most of the work on the scenarios, resulting in his fine campaign book, "Bloody Big Balkan Battles!":
https://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/Big_Bloody_Balkan_Battles_Scenario_Book_PDF_and_Print_Bundle
As you can see, there's a lot of emphasis on the play. For me, it's all about getting troops on the table in interesting historical situations and getting to make interesting decisions. Beautiful armies are important too, but I won't necessarily let the game wait for the right armies.
1. Read/listen to/watch something that peaks (or reawakens) my interest
2. Do some initial research into the period/conflict/battle
3. Look at current rules we use, can any be used or adapted
If no, think really hard about the desire to do the period/conflict and see if there are any great rules available for the period (e.g FK&P)
4. Do some test games using cardboard cut outs and Junior General top down views
5. If test games are successful run a test game or two for regular gaming group
If popular enough (or I'm extra keen on the period e.g. Sail age naval) continue
6. Do further research and identify a battle or campaign to base the forces on
7. Plan forces for BOTH sides (or more e.g Eastern Mediterranean 1911 - 5 navies)
8. Identify suitable figures/models from manufacturers with great reputations (e.g. Pendraken), that are compatible with existing terrain (or require limited additional terrain)
9. Plan order, cast around to see if anyone else wants to order anything from the same manufacturer
10. Ponder while continuing current project
11. Commit and place order for it all (postage to the other side of the world is a less expensive in bulk)
12. Complete current project while waiting for order to arrive
13. Sort order on arrival into suitable batches to allow playable forces to be available as soon as possible
14. Paint first few batches
15. Get a game or two in with the painted figures
16. Continue project until completion, getting bigger games in (resuming at step 1 hopefully when approaching completion)
The above is my 'normal' approach and a number of possible projects have faltered at step 3 or 5 :-\
Other projects take a different route. My AWI project jumped to step 6 in 1976, got to step 3 in the 1990s, then got to step 8 in 2013 and reached step 16 in 2017 ;)
My second AWI project started step 1 in late 2017 and readily passed both steps 3 and 5 reaching step 16 in 2018 :-[
Step 3 is getting harder and harder to pass as we now have forces and rule sets we haven't used in years :(
My recent BBDBA projects have avoided steps 3-5 #:-S
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 19 July 2021, 07:11:48 AM
2. Teach self enough Hungarian to read the Hungarian sources as well as those in German.
Seriously impressive dedication.
I'm currently struggling to re-learn enough Latin and medieval French to read HYW chronicles directly as translators were rarely military folks or wargamers and its useful to check key phrases. As an example on why see the endless ink spent on interpretations of the archer positions at Agincourt.
As to the OP: I get interested, collect figures (sometimes for decades) and then something like a film/TV series will re-ignite interest. Then its off to whatever books/mags I already own and on from there to sources when I need more. Its amazing what is now available on t'internet thanks to wonderful work by Google and the world's universities and museums. And less nobly through Kindle/Scribd,..... I rely on the WRG series/Ospreys/Funckens etc and newer stuff from re-enactment groups for painting colours. If I take my latest Verneuil 1424 project, I probably spend as much dosh and time on the book side than on the figures. [As an aside this is partly because there are very different versions of the event in some French and Scottish sources] . And I will peruse fora like this one or SoA and various blogs for inspiration on how other wargamers have "done stuff".
Its 10mm that broke the logjam and got me more into the paint and on table stages because its just so much quicker to build something that looks a bit more like an army than in 28mm.
What you have done fsn is more or less how I do it. If you are going to use a historical OB it is the logical way I'd say.
1. Idea.
2. Research Phase.
3. Planning Phase.
4. Buying Phase.
5. Painting Phase.
6. Play game/s
Research is fundamental in my view, without it no planning is possible. In my experience everything depends on getting Research and Planning right.
The last historical OB I did in this way was a Culloden project about three years ago, sparked by a visit to the site, but I have a Talavera project which got no further than the Planning Phase and came to a halt ten years ago, until Pendraken decided to produce a suitable range so it is now between Phases 4 and 5.
My Jena Project has been at Phase 3 since 2014. I have a feeling I will need to use Magister Militum figures for this one.
Quote from: pierre the shy on 19 July 2021, 12:58:34 AM
Though I suspect, purely from my own experience, that it may be modified somewhat as outlined by MMCV and Ithoriel.
To a point. I have army lists for the ECW and WWI (1914 and 1917) which I probably created in 2013. I tend to purchase everything before I paint so once I've done with Nobby's Year of Napoleonics I have a few hundred Japanese to address.
Quote from: Chad on 18 July 2021, 08:57:07 PM
The big question in what is listed is "Can Pendraken do it?" If not then the whole Idea falls apart, at least in terms of 10mm.
Do you scrap the idea or do you then look for a different scale of figure to accomplish the idea?
I usually scrap the project but do the research. I have army lists for Kadesh, just waiting for Pendraken to catch up. Yes, I could go elsewhere, but Pendraken has (until now) had enough to keep me interested.
Quote from: John Cook on 19 July 2021, 09:11:49 AM
If you are going to use a historical OB it is the logical way I'd say.
I'm not above a little tweaking with history. For example the 1813 Prussian Guard Light Cavalry had one sqn of dragoons, one of uhlans, one of hussars and one of cossacks. My version doubles up on the uhlans and dragoons 'cos to my eye it looks better and I hate hussars and there wasn't a suitable Cossack proxy. Having said that if I really, really, really wanted Irish regiments in my Spanish army, I'd abandon Romana and look elsewhere.
Part of the reason I started this thread is 'cos I have been watching the YouTube channel "Napoleonic Wargaming", particularly his "Start Collecting" series.
I like the chap but it's just so many
no, please don't do thats for me.
Quote from: fsn on 19 July 2021, 05:42:48 PM
I'm not above a little tweaking with history.
I can't do that, I really can't. I have to stick to the OB I've chosen, exactly. It might even be a form of OCD :(
Quote from: fsn on 19 July 2021, 05:49:47 PM
Part of the reason I started this thread is 'cos I have been watching the YouTube channel "Napoleonic Wargaming", particularly his "Start Collecting" series.
I like the chap but it's just so many no, please don't do thats for me.
How does that saying go "Friends, don't let friends start in 28mm".
Came here to start a new thread, but this one's close enough.
My title was going to be "How do you get started with something new".
That new project or new campaign, where none of the group has any prior investment.
As an example, I'm part of that generation that grew up close to WW2.
* Grandparents, Uncles / Aunts and Dad's workmates who'd been involved.
* WW2 films on the box almost every Sunday afternoon.
* Commando and Warlord comics.
* Toyshops brimming with Airfix kits and figures.
I played with WW2 stuff as a child, but never got back into it for various reasons.
* Available "Serious" rules were a nightmare (1980s-2000), or massive lists of kit, or excessively generic.
* Challenge of picking the theatre of operations, and years of conflict.
* Decision of playing with a Platoon, Company, Battalion, Brigade, Corps or Army.
* All the complexities of the many arms of service at higher levels of command (I can just about cope with Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery).
* And the experience of a few invitations to game with armies and rules that just didn't feel right. (Germans can't lose / Last tank standing is the winner / Hours spent spotting / Vehicles everywhere, and hardly anything else).
I'm mentally prepared for another look now, though many of the above challenges remain.
I have a few rulesets that look suitable, each addressing a different level of command and generally offering a game with realistic demands on terrain, figures and time.
However add in the new factor - Indecision..
This may be a sensible reaction considering the size of my lead pile.
I wonder how the rest of you take those first steps.
1. This looks interesting.
2. I could get the models I need.
3. There are sensible rules.
4. OK Let's do this.
Quote from: John Cook on 19 July 2021, 11:01:39 PM
I can't do that, I really can't. I have to stick to the OB I've chosen, exactly. It might even be a form of OCD :(
Don't feel bad.
There are so many histories to choose from.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 09 September 2021, 01:34:56 PM
...
* Decision of playing with a Platoon, Company, Battalion, Brigade, Corps or Army.
...
Hi Steve,
deciding how to get into a new period is always difficult.
I would suggest the above is the key decision you need to make as it drives just about everything else.
I have a few basic concepts which help me.
Post 1918, everything is 1 figure equals 1 person. 1 vehicle equals vehicle.
I go for a platoon or company sized infantry force, with a troop or squadron of armour plus support - AT, AA, artillery, recce. I try and stick to historic OOBs. Not every unit makes it onto the table, but I can have a change - the late war Brit may be supported by Churchills, Shermans or Cromwells. The early war Germans may find their armour is Pz I, Pz II, Pz III, Pz IV or Pz35t's. All adds to the fun. I've never been persuaded by WWII where one vehicle represents a troop or a squadron or a regiment. One of the reason I chose 10mm is that you can give your vehicles "reasonable" ranges and they can duel it out without their gun barrels clinking together.
1700-1914 I stick to Brigade/Division at about 1:10 ratios.
Pre 1700 I'll stick to 1:10 where it's sensible to do so (e.g. a Roman Legion.) OK, I have some Medieval skirmish figures, but that's because of an article in the Military Modelling Annual 2 (I think).
1914-1918 I have no idea.
1. This looks interesting.
I am notoriously butterfly in my interests. I pulled together a Spanish-American war set after buying a book about it in a sale. I stumbled upon an OoB for the Japanese air fleet at Midway and found I had to recreate the Akagi air force. Pendraken brought out giraffes and I had to emulate the exploits of Colonel Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. This is probably why I have 41 different periods/conflicts.
2. I could get the models I need.
I try and stay with Pendraken. If it hasn't been blessed by the Dark Lord, it isn't going on my table! All praise the Dark Lord and his munificence! This is why I don't have chariots, for example.
3. There are sensible rules.
As for rules, I write my own. As a solo gamers this means they're probably not as complex as others, as I tend to be able to say "hmmm... 5 or 6 and it's good."
4. OK Let's do this.
Research, purchase plan, purchase, paint, play!
Quote from: fsn on 09 September 2021, 08:44:01 PM
(Excellent content clipped for brevity - available above).
1. This looks interesting.
I am notoriously butterfly in my interests. I pulled together a Spanish-American war set after buying a book about it in a sale. I stumbled upon an OoB for the Japanese air fleet at Midway and found I had to recreate the Akagi air force. Pendraken brought out giraffes and I had to emulate the exploits of Colonel Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. This is probably why I have 41 different periods/conflicts.
This is the dangerous "corridor of uncertainty".
I've several boxes filled with figures for projects that never saw the light of day (Various reasons).
I've now learned to exercise great caution, and ensure all elements are present before committing.
If not, It gets whacked to the cover boundary with a "stick o' rhubarb".
Quote from: fsn on 09 September 2021, 08:44:01 PM
2. I could get the models I need.
I try and stay with Pendraken. If it hasn't been blessed by the Dark Lord, it isn't going on my table! All praise the Dark Lord and his munificence! This is why I don't have chariots, for example.
The key piece of due diligence.
If you can't buy the models, you can't do the game.
Sometimes proxies help, especially at the smaller scales, but if it's genuinely unavailable, the project is off.
Quote from: fsn on 09 September 2021, 08:44:01 PM
3. There are sensible rules.
As for rules, I write my own. As a solo gamers this means they're probably not as complex as others, as I tend to be able to say "hmmm... 5 or 6 and it's good."
This is a tough one.
Some rules read and are presented beautifully.
They may even enjoy support of an enthusiastic social media crowd.
Occasionally this crowd are "the club" shilling for the commercialised set of their house rules.
More often, the rules simply incorporate mechanisms that we have grown to hate, or perhaps they play with all the grace of a punctured spacehopper.
It doesn't help that so many blog reviews are written on the basis of a single read through the rules.
I've concluded that I am a poor judge of which rules will play well, and which won't.
Quote from: fsn on 09 September 2021, 08:44:01 PM
4. OK Let's do this.
Research, purchase plan, purchase, paint, play!
Once you've mentally greenlit the job, it's time to commit.
Place an order, and get painting before the next big thing erases it form your "to do" list.
Quote from: fsn on 09 September 2021, 08:44:01 PM
3. There are sensible rules.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 10 September 2021, 08:57:42 AM
This is a tough one.
Some rules read and are presented beautifully.
They may even enjoy support of an enthusiastic social media crowd.
Occasionally this crowd are "the club" shilling for the commercialised set of their house rules.
More often, the rules simply incorporate mechanisms that we have grown to hate, or perhaps they play with all the grace of a punctured spacehopper.
It doesn't help that so many blog reviews are written on the basis of a single read through the rules.
I've concluded that I am a poor judge of which rules will play well, and which won't.
This is indeed the tough one, hence my steps 3-5
Quote from: paulr on 19 July 2021, 08:00:20 AM
3. Look at current rules we use, can any be used or adapted
If no, think really hard about the desire to do the period/conflict and see if there are any great rules available for the period (e.g FK&P)
4. Do some test games using cardboard cut outs and Junior General top down views
5. If test games are successful run a test game or two for regular gaming group
If popular enough (or I'm extra keen on the period e.g. Sail age naval) continue
There is no substitute for getting some bases of some sort on the table and giving the rules a try or three...