I've never really 'got into' 'computer' gaming... and never had an X Box or whatever!!!
But was remembering the 'early days'! Commodore 64 with cassettes! :o Or 'Arcade' machines in the Pub! 8)
Not thinking about 'Mario', 'Pac Man', etc just the more 'war' things... though 'Asteroids' counts!
Any fond memories?
I had a good one from Airfix! 'Dam Busters!' Rather advanced for the time. Multi role. From memory...(a LONG time ago!):
Pilot took off and flew.
Navigator moved round a map to get to target.
Flight engineer panel for revvs/speed.
Bomb Aimer to use the 'special' sights and drop the' Bouncing Bomb'.
Front and Rear Gunners for nightfighters and, maybe Flak posts.
I ACTUALLY completed the mission a few times! lol
'Down The Pub'... arcade 'Asteroids' was a 'fave'... and there was a similar style 'Tank Combat' thing which used to get a real hammering! On a holiday, there was a sort of 'Star Trek' space game which was pretty good, too!
When You Think... !!! LOL! ;D
I've been thinking and I'm struggling to remember the early computer wargames I played.
Back in the day we had an Atari console, and played 'tennis' and pac man, space invaders and a really simple adventure game - all of which came in cartridges. A few year later I had a BBC micro with a cassette tape drive, and remember 30 min game load times and attempting to copy games from my mates. But most of these games were arcade or adventure ones.
Towards the end of uni I got a first generation mac book, mono screen, built in track ball, and HD! Remember playing lots of Civilisation on this, which was pretty much a war game! Might and Magic was the adventure game at that time.
Later Age of Empires was a big favourite - but not a pure wargame.
I'm actually thinking I haven't played too many wargames on computers. Lately I've largely moved away from computer games (apart from the odd one on my phone) as I spend so much of my working day in front of a screen.
Does minesweeper count :D
"Arnhem" on the Amstrad CPC6128 was a big favourite of mine. Once I'd mastered it I could regularly rescue over a million paratroops from Arnhem :D
Arcades: Asteroids (rubbish)*, Battlezone - your tank game? (better), Defender (totally rubbish), Scramble (excellent), Donkey Kong (pretty good), Phoenix (not bad).
Computers before PC - no real 'war games'. Driving (Stunt Car Racer) and strategy (Populous, SimCity) games on an Amiga.
On the PC - First-person shooters: Doom 1 & 2, Quake 1 & 2, Half-life. Strategy: Command & Conquer & it's sequels, Warcraft I & II, Starcraft.
Still have Command & Conquer & Tiberian Sun installed on this PC - only games I still play, but not very often nowadays.
* My ability at these games, not the quality of the game
Missile Command was my favorite arcade game.
Also had Ancient battles on the PC in 1993
Arnhem comment - made me remember the Close Combat series - was this late 90s? The Market Garden one was my favourite. I remember spending stupid money getting the last version of the series from the US, game cost + shipping + import fees - about 3x retail price >:(
Combat Mission was another later one I played quite a lot, but it just became so time consuming having to move every squad at first person level, after spending an age checking for enemies.
Played a lot of Annals of Rome on the amstrad cpc
Quote from: fred. on 20 May 2021, 08:14:32 PM
Arnhem comment - made me remember the Close Combat series - was this late 90s? The Market Garden one was my favourite. I remember spending stupid money getting the last version of the series from the US, game cost + shipping + import fees - about 3x retail price >:(
Combat Mission was another later one I played quite a lot, but it just became so time consuming having to move every squad at first person level, after spending an age checking for enemies.
Sounds more like "Close Combat" than "Combat Mission" to me. Those plus "Company of Heroes," Blitzkreig" and "Steel Panthers" have eaten up more of my life that I care to remember :)
These days it's Valheim that occupies my time.
Close Combat was top down, real time, but pausable. It was squad level, but you dragged out command lines for units to move or fire along. And total force size was pretty manageable - 12-15 units IIRC
Combat Mission, was 3D (ish) view and often its fog of war meant viewing from first person was necessary. It was also turn based, you plotted all the moves then executed the turn, and then had to review it several times to see what had happened. I think a lot of the problems were down to scenarios that were just too big to practically play with the scale of the game and the FoW. This is a common wargames problem of stretching games to breaking point
My games of Close Combat had way more than 12-15 units a side and I played Combat Mission mostly zoomed out to the max. Different strokes for different folks, clearly :)
Perhaps different versions, this is the one I played the most the units are at the bottom left
(https://images.gog-statics.com/1937f35b72e7c24681f0f533365e09cf7e1896e7ba48e09f80597ecd189a6b51_product_card_v2_thumbnail_542.jpg)
Available for just over £4 now https://www.gog.com/game/close_combat_2_a_bridge_too_far
Oi! What's all this 'Early computer wargame' stuff about Close Combat? Some of us are still playing it!
First 'wargame' I had was on a 'tweaked' ZX-81 c1983/4? It was an Ancient Imperial Rome game with written command input, and combat results were fed back as numbers and I think the odd 'won/lost/retreat/follow up' written report. There was a map but for reference only to show which bit of Europe/Africa/Middle East you were being slaughtered in. No graphics. I've still got the ZX-81, and the game audio cassette , but foolishly threw away the analogue b/w tv it worked with because I had forgotten why I was keeping it and binned it about ten years ago. :(
Rectory Road in the 60s, Oxford University's computer (the size of your house) used to run Star Trek, you had to fly round zapping Kingons (on paper, as screens weren't invented yet). Does that count?
It had to run 24 hours a day, so everyone would troop back there after the pub for their 'shift'. It's where my Mun and Dad met my godparents.
When I left home in the early 80's I flatted with a fellow wargamer who had a Apple II+ along with a whole swag of SSI wargames and other programmes. The Apple took pride of place in the main room and we wasted/spent a lot of evenings playing everything from "Fighter Command" to "Wizardry"......some great memories of those times!
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 20 May 2021, 10:10:36 PM
Rectory Road in the 60s, Oxford University's computer (the size of your house) used to run Star Trek, you had to fly round zapping Kingons (on paper, as screens weren't invented yet). Does that count?
It had to run 24 hours a day, so everyone would troop back there after the pub for their 'shift'. It's where my Mun and Dad met my godparents.
Oooh! I did that in the early 70's in Edinburgh. Plotters, acoustic couplers, and punch tape for the security code to access it.
I remember having Balance of Power on my Atari ST. I didn't play it all that much (I could never really get into computer wargames), but the idea was that you managed either the US or USSR and the idea was to gain power and influence by working through other countries via insurgence, political manipulation, economic support etc. The danger was that a misstep could increase the chance of nuclear confrontation. If you got to defcon 0 (or was it 1?) a nuclear war was triggered, I remember if that happened you got a simple text box telling you that you weren't going to see explosions or anything exciting as we don't reward failure.
Battlezone was rather good; I was sorry it didn't develop a second generation (that flying saucer should have dropped an infantry squad).
C64 Raid on Bungeling Bay. Arcade in style but conceptually a wargame. Excellent.
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 20 May 2021, 10:10:36 PM
Rectory Road in the 60s, Oxford University's computer (the size of your house) used to run Star Trek, you had to fly round zapping Kingons (on paper, as screens weren't invented yet).
We had something called 'Star Trek' on the school Research Machines 380Z. I never got to play it, but there were minmal graphics, and it seemed to be sort of an extended game of battleships?
Quote from: fred. on 20 May 2021, 08:14:32 PM
Arnhem comment - made me remember the Close Combat series - was this late 90s? The Market Garden one was my favourite.
Ahh, reminds me that we had Operation Crusader by Atomic Games. Basically an Avalon Hill type wargame on the screen (minus the hexes). Played that with a pal in London, connecting to each other's computers via modems to transmit the turn orders. Think that was a fore-runner of the Close Combat series?
I would categorise my early computer wargaming days as taking place when I used my Amiga 500 (upgraded to 1000), when constant changing of floppy disks was often the order of the day. Games included:-
Powermonger - a game set in a fictitious medieval world where you set off with a small band of followers to conquer 'the world,' upgrading weapons and recruiting more followers as you struggle towards this objective. One of the useful lessons it taught me was that if you don't obtain and maintain sufficient supplies to feed your army, it will desert.
Waterloo and Austerlitz: By Peter Turcan. Self explanatory. This is what I seem to recall:- Formations (Corps and Divisions) had to be ordered into action by orders delivered by 'riders' who might take longer than you estimate they will do so or fail to deliver them due to getting lost or becoming casualties themselves. Frustrating at first but quite an enjoyable frustration. On the successful delivery of an order there would be a delay whilst Corps commanders ordered Divisions to move (in Austerlitz, I was convinced Bernadotte was programmed to be particularly tardy in carrying out orders). The timing of manoeuvres and assaults therefore had to be planned well in advance. Whilst Corps and their component Divisions were represented, lower level formations were represented by blocks of roughly a 1000 men which could form line, column or square (so, in Waterloo for example a French Division would comprise of 4 units) - a feature that worked well and which helped me accept the concept of standard size units on the war-games table that did not have to be representative of the varying strengths of real life battalions (if that makes any sense).
Pacific Islands: Modern armoured warfare in the Pacific to re-conquer an archipelago occupied by North Korea. Lots of missions against Soviet era armour with your mixed force of Abrams tanks and M113 variants.
F-117 Stealth Fighter: Covert missions flying deep into enemy territory to destroy terrorist camps, ambush planes carrying terrorist leaders, photograph or destroy installations, etc., avoiding enemy radar contacts, anti-aircraft defences and fighter patrols. The manual was really instructive as I recall giving loads of detail on how the different types of radar worked (doppler, etc.) and how best to avoid being spotted, attack tactics, air-to-ground, air-to-ship and air-to-air ordnance. Plus you learn about basic flying (stall speeds, etc.). One highlight I particularly recall was the interception and assassination of a terrorist leader in his private Soviet made plane deep 'within enemy territory' (Iran?). Although armed to the teeth with air-to-air missiles, I somehow managed to blow up his plane with a short ranging burst of only 3 rounds from my 1000 round cannon. Pure luck, of course, but surely up there in the highest traditions of stealth and covert operations!
Cossacks!: I'm really into the realms of PC gaming now with this one but one of my favourite computer games. Main lesson from this one was the light bulb moment when I fully understood the value of cavalry raids deep into enemy territory to destroy the enemy's economy and ability to wage war.
Quote from: Raider4 on 21 May 2021, 08:08:00 AM
We had something called 'Star Trek' on the school Research Machines 380Z. I never got to play it, but there were minmal graphics, and it seemed to be sort of an extended game of battleships?
I can remember something similar running on the room sized IBM at work (which had less power and far less storage than a modern budget phone!). Paper tape in and printouts out with pics made up using the O X ! _ type characters. In those days, bosses didnt get paid overtime but we did. :d
I had but never got on with (teeny blurry graphics) some of the original John Tiller series but the first PC game to really hook me in was the original Total War Shogun. (c.2000). Now I have a steam pile which thankfully is mostly digital or it might overwhelm the plastic and lead piles of minis. But I fondly remember repeatedly defending a mountain top with spearmen and archers until my general had so much reputation that AI units ran away when he approached! Now I get routinely thrashed by the AI in most games beyond standard settings. They are clearly genetic descendants of my table game dice.
1983 Stonkers
Sinclair ZX Spectrum was mostly platform jumpers, first person shooters or maze runners, but did have a "real time strategy" game called Stonkers which also had logistics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonkers)
and a playthrough Video https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=4913 (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=4913)
1987 Xtrek
"The first of these remote display games was Xtrek. Based on a PLATO system game, Empire, Xtrek is a 2D multiplayer space battle game loosely set in the Star Trek universe. This game could be played across the Internet, probably the first graphical game that could do so, a few months ahead of the X version of Maze War".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_online_games#X_Window_System_games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_online_games#X_Window_System_games)
Xterk was a star trek dogfighting game with phasers, photon torpedoes and 4 styles of spaceship (Federation, Romulan, Klingon and something else).
It was popular coffee break entertainment at the University of Kent's computer labs.
We once organised an inter-university game against Loughborough, but found that current network technology couldn't maintain a smooth game (What kids today call "lag").
Thinking back, I also recall having a game UMS Universal Military Simulator, that allowed you to create a 3D landscape, units from any era, and use a set of preinstalled to fight battles. It was very basic line art and highly stylized, but was an attempt to simulate table style wargaming on the computer. This was very different to most early computer wargames, which tended to concentrate on recreating particular eras and battles, often with a focus on decent graphics (at least as far as is possible back then), in fact, I can't recall anything with similar ambitions since. I think that it was well ahead of its time and I found it quite difficult to play, perhaps because I find computer wargames hard work anyway, but also because it was trying to achieve an awful lot given the limitations of computers back then. Still, you have to admire their ambition, I believe it went through a few iterations and upgrades before finally disappearing and it might be interesting to see what could be achieved on similar lines with modern computers.
Quote from: KeithS on 21 May 2021, 01:54:29 PM
Thinking back, I also recall having a game UMS Universal Military Simulator, that allowed you to create a 3D landscape, units from any era, and use a set of preinstalled to fight battles ....................
............... it might be interesting to see what could be achieved on similar lines with modern computers.
Here it is now .... ?
https://agrabbagofgames.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/screen-shot-2021-03-16-at-8.45.26-pm.jpeg (https://agrabbagofgames.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/screen-shot-2021-03-16-at-8.45.26-pm.jpeg)
I used to play 'Lords of Midnight' which could be eon by either role play or military victory.
In the 1980s on a PDP11/44 we had a sort of fantasy adventure game which I seem to recall required throwing axes at dwarves, and "twisty, turney passages, all alike."
My favourite though was an Arnhem game on the Spectrum ZX. Used to have to load it on a cassette player. :-X
(https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/games.snapshot/3850/127360-Arnhem.jpg)
Quote from: KeithS on 21 May 2021, 01:54:29 PM
Thinking back, I also recall having a game UMS Universal Military Simulator, that allowed you to create a 3D landscape, units from any era, and use a set of preinstalled to fight battles. It was very basic line art and highly stylized, but was an attempt to simulate table style wargaming on the computer. This was very different to most early computer wargames, which tended to concentrate on recreating particular eras and battles, often with a focus on decent graphics (at least as far as is possible back then), in fact, I can't recall anything with similar ambitions since. I think that it was well ahead of its time and I found it quite difficult to play, perhaps because I find computer wargames hard work anyway, but also because it was trying to achieve an awful lot given the limitations of computers back then. Still, you have to admire their ambition, I believe it went through a few iterations and upgrades before finally disappearing and it might be interesting to see what could be achieved on similar lines with modern computers.
I remember that one. A flank attack was no better than a frontal one. I stopped playing what I realised that.
There was another C64 cassette game that I played a lot. Something like 'Fighter Pilot' or whatever! Blue sky. Flat green land... but you could crash into it just out of boredom. lol. ;D
Take off... hunt down intruder on a map. Shoot it down...actually NOT that easy, given the graphics and responses ! Cannon only... don't think it shot back! lol. Then find refueller tanker or somehow find airfield from map as no screen topography! And land... 8)
Spent quite a lot of wasted 'youngness' doing that for a year or two... too much 'overdraft' for much else! LOL!
Bought a couple of other 'Combat Flight' cassettes... but didn't work!!! >:( ;D
May as well mention... others may 'relate', lol... MY Only attempt to become a 'Computer Programmer'! Spent 2+ days keying in commands from a mag for a very basic C64 'Snake' game.
IT RAN!!! :o ... For about 2 1/2 seconds... >:( >:( >:( End of carreer. :'( :'( :'(
Just think... maybe ONE mis-key... and I didn't invent Windows, Google... or make Dragons 'Fly'! :( LOL!!!
Von wouldn't allow a computer in the house for years, as she worked with them all day.
Nearest I got to any of the arcade games was Asteroids in the 'social club' at the BT exchange in Guildford.
I was really good at that provided all the controls were all buttons....I even held the high score. :)
Put me on a different machine, that had a joystick control , and I was absolutely bloody hopeless !! ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil. :)
Quote from: fsn on 21 May 2021, 09:44:29 PM
In the 1980s on a PDP11/44 we had a sort of fantasy adventure game which I seem to recall required throwing axes at dwarves, and "twisty, turney passages, all alike."
Sounds like Colossal Cave - spent many an hour playing that!
Quote from: fsn on 21 May 2021, 09:44:29 PM
In the 1980s on a PDP11/44 we had a sort of fantasy adventure game which I seem to recall required throwing axes at dwarves, and "twisty, turney passages, all alike."
Rogue: Or its successor Hack.
Everything done using ASCII symbols. o Orc, O Ogre.
All fun and games until you encounter the rust monster.
Even today, old school developers refer to a class of games roguelike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike)
I can 'vaguely' remeomber 'THEM' saying that computers would :
Make every thing cheaper... :)
Give you more leisure time... :)
'ThEY' Didn't mention 'Staff Cuts', 'Hours Reductions', 'Part Time Staffing', 'Wives/Partners working to pay household costs'... 'child care'... etc.
(About the same time as you could 'eat a meal' off a CD! ) LOL!!! ???
Didn't want to have anythiing to do with 'computers'... then 'Spread Sheets', ' Data Bases' and 'Scanners' made things SO much simpler...
...'Monkey Work'.. ;) Then away goes what's left of the 'staff 'apart from 'lifting / carrying'!... and THAT could be 'automated'... apart from' errors'...
which can be 'written off' as 'acceptable' due to cost reductions. :o
'Skynet' is Redundant too! :o There is daytime TV! :d 'We've Had It, Chaps'..'.'Fix Bayonets!' :o
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 22 May 2021, 12:15:57 PM
I can 'vaguely' remeomber 'THEM' saying that computers would :
Make every thing cheaper... :)
Give you more leisure time... :)
'ThEY' Didn't mention 'Staff Cuts', 'Hours Reductions', 'Part Time Staffing',
That is more leisure time!!
'Airwolf' cassette game was a 'Fail'... 'fly' into a 'cave' ??
But.. You DID get the 'Mindworm'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z_ESg4U-4g
:d :d :d