Musing.
As a child, I saw a film... maybe 'Tobruk!' ? which involved flame throwers... and it horrified me. :o
But.. Airfix / Matchbox men always has flame throwers... so 'got used to them'.. but did not 'like'. :(
Later, well, a Churchill Crocodile was a definite table 'asset'... but... ;) :(
Then there was the iconic: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning!" 8) BUT, Falklands... >:(
NOW! :o Stick a sexy Blonde on a Dragon... and she can incinerate Bad Guys / execute prisoners / good guys... or anyone else... and 'Fine By Me!' :D (Even if it is not meant to be!). :o 8) :(
So. Any musings, chaps? There may be different 'levels'...
I will NOT be 'offended' by comments! ;)
Did once proof read a set of WWII rules where the author refused to inclued flame weapons. Also the RAF has never used napalm - because it's less effective than several alternatives.
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 May 2021, 08:28:00 AM
Did once proof read a set of WWII rules where the author refused to inclued flame weapons. Also the RAF has never used napalm - because it's less effective than several alternatives.
That wonderful and reliable source of wikipedia assures the reader that it was used by the RAF on 14 July 1944. I have read elsewhere of its use during WWII by the RAF. It may be that it was not used subsequently by the RAF. From what I have read
flame has more of a psychological use than practical use, except against defences if you can get close enough to use it.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 09 May 2021, 08:42:00 AM
That wonderful and reliable source of wikipedia assures the reader that it was used by the RAF on 14 July 1944. I have read elsewhere of its use during WWII by the RAF. It may be that it was not used subsequently by the RAF. From what I have read flame has more of a psychological use than practical use, except against defences if you can get close enough to use it.
Can't find that entry. The reason they didn't use wasn't moral but doubts about it's effectiveness against most targets.
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 May 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Can't find that entry. The reason they didn't use wasn't moral but doubts about it's effectiveness against most targets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm
The British De Havilland Mosquito FB Mk.VIs of No. 140 Wing RAF, Second Tactical Air Force on 14 July 1944
Ta La
Aye, agree that fire/flame/burning is horrible in "modern" movies.
Private Ryan - bunker busting and then not shooting the burning Germans as they scramble out, and in Fury - the young Lt. who shoots himself before he burns to death, and again not shooting the Germans when they've been hit with white phosphorous.
Both horrible examples.
Giant dragons burning 10,000 CGI troops - meh. Maybe because it's shown as an instant death. The red priestess burning people at the stake was pretty "urgh" though.
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 May 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Can't find that entry. The reason they didn't use wasn't moral but doubts about it's effectiveness against most targets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#Military_use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#Military_use)
Limited use, fighter bomber style interdiction.
Bomber Command preferred traditional incendiaries for their night raids.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 09 May 2021, 10:12:25 AM
Bomber Command preferred traditional incendiaries for their night raids.
That was for aircraft saftey, If they were hit in the bombbay with naplam abord there would have been a major fire before anyone knew about it.
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 May 2021, 10:24:27 AM
That was for aircraft saftey, If they were hit in the bombbay with naplam abord there would have been a major fire before anyone knew about it.
Was it a significantly greater risk than normal incendiaries or photoflash bombs?
In "D-day through German eyes" there are several reports of the RAF using White phosphorous, Often from Huri-bombers. The powder would spread easily through the firing slits of the bunkers and onto those inside, thus any hit on the bunker was effective. At worst it blinded the bunker with smoke, often it incapacitated the occupants. According to one report you could actually breath it in, causing burning from the inside out - horrible.
So i doubt their was any moral reason for the RAF not using napalm.
Being a liquid it could spread further, and could leak, so whilst a blast bomb or photoflash could possibly take a small fragment the naplam would leak.
While on this philosophical musing, I have a strange aversion to mini wargaming from WW1 onwards (although I own and play boardgames) which I used to rationalise as horrors of "real" war. But its totally illogical as flames (WRG flaming pigs, Mongol naptha carriers, medieval castle undermining, ...) and many other horrors existed in other eras if not quite as frequently as Hollywoods love of flaming projectile yet strangely wooden trebuchets might suggest.
Dragons though are pure fantasy although possibly more likely than me meeting sexy blondes.
Quote from: DecemDave on 09 May 2021, 11:58:01 AM
Dragons though are pure fantasy although possibly more likely than me meeting sexy blondes.
Our Welsh members have seen them even if only after many pints of beer. Other things - flaming pigs - for use against elephants, maddend bears and baskets of hornets in seige tunnels, baskets of snakes off the walls in segies. Thgiose are listed in WRG Ancients 5th edition seige appendix.
Though the Welsh members of the forum tend not to use such a complete, random,
freeform bastardisation of the language and spelling that some here utilise.....especially as those members are allegedly English.
Gimme fringing strength. X_X :'(
In despair - Phil.
Quote from: Techno II on 09 May 2021, 01:15:43 PM
Though the Welsh members of the forum tend not to use such a complete, random,
freeform bastardisation of the language and spelling that some here utilise.....especially as those members are allegedly English.
Gimme fringing strength. X_X :'(
In despair - Phil.
Least I put vowles in ! And stop gettin at moi cus I canna type
Is being burned to death intrinsically worse than dying slowly because your stomach has been sliced open by a gladius or drowning in your own blood because a musketball has shattered your shoulder and driven fragments of bone into your lungs?
Let's face it, death in battle is likely to be unpleasant in most eras, whatever the cause of death.
On a more positive note, advances in surgery and medicine mean people are more likely to survive wounds that would have been fatal in times gone by.
Pysclogically yes. All animals are scared of fire (see Phil I can be serious)
I recall reading somewhere that in WW2 flamethower operators were less likely to be taken prisoner as they were so hated by the enemy that they would be shot rather than allowed to surrender.
A DVD documentary that I watched recently about the SS in Normandy told of a Churchill Crocodile crew being summarily shot after capture.
Back to napalm, the RAF carried it in inventory for a very long time; they tended to practise with it off in other peoples countries where it could go unnoticed.
They used it to help burn out the Torrey Canyon supertanker which was on its way to Phils when it had an unfortunate navigational moment.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 May 2021, 01:12:50 AM
Back to napalm, the RAF carried it in inventory for a very long time; they tended to practise with it off in other peoples countries where it could go unnoticed.
They used it to help burn out the Torrey Canyon supertanker which was on its way to Phils when it had an unfortunate navigational moment.
Oh Lord... I 'sort of' remember that but I was a small kid! Did she qualify as a 'Supertanker'... or 'just' Big tanker? All that ordnance used...and little 'real' effect. Don't think it was tried again... from what I can recollect.
Makes you wonder what 'the Seas' were like during WW2... esp. the Med? :o
Hmm. As an ex 'Environmental Studies' student, (Not a good one!), just wonder if WW2 shows up much on such things as 'Peat Cores' , 'Ice Cores' or 'Tree Rings'? Damn... wish I'd thought of that when looking for a dissertation project... a Long time ago! ;D Not my bag, now. :(
Quote from: Techno II on 09 May 2021, 01:15:43 PM
Though the Welsh members of the forum tend not to use such a complete, random,
freeform bastardisation of the language and spelling that some here utilise.....especially as those members are allegedly English.
Gimme fringing strength. X_X :'(
In despair - Phil.
Wel meddai, y dyn yna! Rhaid i rywun achub yr iaith Saesneg rhag y Sais!
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 10 May 2021, 04:54:59 AM
Oh Lord... I 'sort of' remember that but I was a small kid! Did she qualify as a 'Supertanker'... or 'just' Big tanker? All that ordnance used...and little 'real' effect. Don't think it was tried again... from what I can recollect.
Makes you wonder what 'the Seas' were like during WW2... esp. the Med? :o
Hmm. As an ex 'Environmental Studies' student, (Not a good one!), just wonder if WW2 shows up much on such things as 'Peat Cores' , 'Ice Cores' or 'Tree Rings'? Damn... wish I'd thought of that when looking for a dissertation project... a Long time ago! ;D Not my bag, now. :(
She was big, I always assumed supertanker big but it's not something I ever looked at in detail! Biggest spill to date then and an equally big environmental disaster :(
Don't know about tree rings etc for WW2, interesting thought. Someone must have studied it?! I know there's an apocryphal story about steel quality decline due to the radiation uptick but I've seen any actual evidence for that :)
Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 May 2021, 07:01:02 AM
She was big, I always assumed supertanker big but it's not something I ever looked at in detail! Biggest spill to date then and an equally big environmental disaster :(
Don't know about tree rings etc for WW2, interesting thought. Someone must have studied it?! I know there's an apocryphal story about steel quality decline due to the radiation uptick but I've seen any actual evidence for that :)
The steel thing is very specialised.
A few scientific instruments (MRI scanners from memory) benefit from low radiation steel.
Raised background levels after the WW2 tests - but moreso the various cold war tests mean we can no longer make stuff as low as prewar cast steel.
This may have a lot to do with the recent stripping of warship wrecks in the Java Sea.
The un-salvaged bits of the scuttled High Seas fleet in Scapa Flow was another valuable source of pre-testing steel, some of it was used by NASA
Apparently the steel making process uses so much air that the background radiation is 'concentrated' to some extent
Torrey Canyon was a supertanker in her day - about the same size as an Atlantic class container ship. Mid to small today.
Quote from: paulr on 10 May 2021, 07:25:16 AM
The un-salvaged bits of the scuttled High Seas fleet in Scapa Flow was another valuable source of pre-testing steel, some of it was used by NASA
Apparently the steel making process uses so much air that the background radiation is 'concentrated' to some extent
See that's about all I know as it's been mentioned anecdotally - I should probably have just looked properly and read about it :D
Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 May 2021, 09:54:00 AM
See that's about all I know as it's been mentioned anecdotally - I should probably have just looked properly and read about it :D
Well there is a 1st time for everything !
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 10 May 2021, 04:54:59 AM
Hmm. As an ex 'Environmental Studies' student, (Not a good one!), just wonder if WW2 shows up much on such things as 'Peat Cores' , 'Ice Cores' or 'Tree Rings'? Damn... wish I'd thought of that when looking for a dissertation project... a Long time ago! ;D Not my bag, now. :(
I recently found there was a world wide drought in 1947, after a freezing 1946 winter, where harvests other than in America fell by as much as half. The US was able to step up and send the world surplus grain and fertiliser (and extend it's hegemony). For students of climate change WW2 showed the perils of giving people unlimited energy to burn....
Bizzarely, the most detailed account is in a US Coast Guard Appropriation Bill of 1947!:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tn00AAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA62&lpg=RA1-PA62&dq=1947+harvest+failure&source=bl&ots=4lIJyJje3n&sig=ACfU3U0ElK3D29JdPvH9b2fxnyG0yZcjeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_4euN877wAhUymVwKHRvkCcQQ6AEwEXoECA4QAw
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 10 May 2021, 10:14:35 AM
Well there is a 1st time for everything !
But where's the fun in that!
It's well known I have NO sense of humour :'( :'(
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 10 May 2021, 12:47:25 PM
It's well known I have NO sense of humour :'( :'(
And I repeat, where's the fun in that?!
:D
At least the High Seas Fleet turned out to be useful for something after all, I guess.