So, the first two Panzer IIIE are done, and the Balken Cross is tiny and on. They will do for 1940 theatres nicely!
(https://i.imgur.com/W1EQLBe.jpg)
Clank clank
(https://i.imgur.com/wAy2PuI.jpg)
Trundle trundle...
(https://i.imgur.com/XHQNd0u.jpg)
Rear end
(https://i.imgur.com/1jQynYt.jpg)
Just as an experiment, the German camo never shows up on black and white photos of the time, so just to try it out..
(https://i.imgur.com/NGuGiYq.jpg)
Yup
Looking good Will
Really lovely job on those, Will ! :-bd
Cheers - Phil. :)
Very nice Will 8).
Just to clarify, is the two-tone scheme just 1939-40? with post France 40 being just grey? Although few German tanks were used throughout the war, would it imply the need for tank fleets painted:
(1) Two-tone brown-grey for 39-40
(2) Grey for 41-42
(3) Autumn dapple 43-45
(4) Winter war white
(5) DAK desert yellow
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 17 March 2021, 04:43:12 PM
Just to clarify, is the two-tone scheme just 1939-40? with post France 40 being just grey?
<sharp intake of breath>
I've seen a few heated arguments - some very - about whether German tanks in France used the grey/brown camouflage on internet forums over the years.
As per the black+white photo above, it doesn't show up in pictures taken at the time.
To Lord Speedy - they look great! What paints did you use for the grey/brown please?
Thank you.
Vallejo Dark grey, black wash, dark grey highlights, then the camo is Vallejo Chocolate Brown.
The info I had was universal grey came in AFTER the Fall of France, but as we often know, I am wrong on a great many things.
According to my Blitzkrieg Armour Camouflage book by Zaloga - 'Grey and brown was adopted in 1935 the correct proportions were 1/3rd brown 2/3rds grey. On many vehicles it was never applied. Exclusive grey colour was officially adopted as an economy measure for the duration. It was mandated by Directive HM 1940 No 864 on 31st july 1940.
The grey colour that could vary to almost black as Pz1's serving with the Condor Legion in Spian were popularly called had been referred to as "Negrillos" - "The Black Ones
My Blanford by BT White states all German vehicles were a medium grey, in sunlight this appeared to face to a chalkier lighter grey
Panzer Colours again state a change fron brown grey to overall grey in late 1939 but speculates that this was to late for all vehicles to be changed for the Polish campaign. Most being don on refit afterwards.
It also satted that on exercises the vehicles got so covered in dust it oftn obliterated all markings and the base colour of the paintwork. It also suggests that being covered dust local to the area helped the vehicle to blend in .
Having visited numerous tank museums over the last 5-6 years I do not recall seeing any in a grey and brown scheme. Nor have I seen any photos where you could distinguish the pattern, although it could have been covered with dust.
However with that being said The Germans did use a Brown and grey colour scheme just before the war, and I doubt that all vehicles even in the Wermacht were studiously repainted , particularly when in the field.
In conclusion it seems that grey should have been the overall colour. It probably wasn't for quite a few if not most vehicles on the polish campaign, and I suspect undamaged vehicles did not get repainted for the French campaign.
So the plain grey or brown /grey colour schemes are probably both correct. The grey can vary from a light mid-grey, with or without a blue-ish tinge to almost black. So paint them as you like them . I don't think anyone will be able to prove otherwise.
P.S. they look very nice as they are.
You could have lead with that last line!!! ;D
These Panzer IIIs have come out quite well, Will. :-bd
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 17 March 2021, 09:16:50 PM
You could have lead with that last line!!! ;D
Where's the fun in that ;)
Quote from: Orcs on 17 March 2021, 06:10:05 PM
Having visited numerous tank museums over the last 5-6 years I do not recall seeing any in a grey and brown scheme.
Bovington had a Panzer II in grey/brown, or at least did the last time I went (>5 years ago).
Quote from: Orcs on 17 March 2021, 06:10:05 PM
So paint them as you like them . I don't think anyone will be able to prove otherwise.
Yeah, this.
Bovy do have a tendancy to use made up schemes though....
Quote from: ianrs54 on 18 March 2021, 11:15:09 AM
Bovy do have a tendancy to use made up schemes though....
Yes, their Caunter scheme is supposedly suspect.
It certainly is on the Matilda II in Salford IWM. Course we don't have the right paints anymore.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 18 March 2021, 11:15:09 AM
Bovy do have a tendancy to use made up schemes though....
I didn't say it was accurate, I just said it was there :)
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 17 March 2021, 06:08:49 PM
The info I had was universal grey came in AFTER the Fall of France, but as we often know, I am wrong on a great many things.
You are absolutely right on this point and have done your research. Sometimes the answer is 'nobody knows' but not in this case.
I wouldn't trust any paint scheme applied by museums and the claims by Zaloga, and others, that the Wehrmacht painted its vehicles overall dark grey by 1940 is based, apparently, on faulty analysis of black and white period photographs. The trouble is that in period monochrome imagery, as you point out, and demonstrate in the monochrome shots of your nicely executed models, the two colours are almost indistinguishable and the finish appears to be a uniform tone.
The two colours are very dark. The brown is close to Vallejo Chocolate Brown, and although Vallejo Black Grey is probably closer to the grey colour, I find Vallejo Basalt Grey is plenty dark enough for miniatures, particularly after a wash of black, and dry-brushing.
Here are a couple of authoritative articles on the subject of Wehrmacht camouflage and anything else is, frankly, speculation. The Kfz.der Wehrmacht site is especially useful on all things to do with German army vehicles.
https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage
http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/Miscellaneous/Camouflage_finish/camouflage_finish.html
The dunkelbraun Nr45/dunkelgrau Nr46 scheme was ordered on 12 July 1937. It applied to all vehicles, except motorcycles and some staff cars which were solely dark grey. This two-tone pattern remained the prescribed scheme until 12 June 1940, after which dark grey became the prescribed universal colour for all vehicles.
Having said all that I have to confess that, on the basis of mistaken received wisdom, my early Wehrmacht tanks and vehicles are uniformly dark grey.
Nice feedback, thank you.
Cracking as usual :-bd
Cudders
Two more Panzer IIIE
(https://i.imgur.com/yL9xidt.jpg)
Menicingly on the prowl
(https://i.imgur.com/nlufHTd.jpg)
Maybe we will go this way
(https://i.imgur.com/9N4C81V.jpg)
And we HAD to have some recon!
(https://i.imgur.com/NntFhS9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nAUm2C7.jpg)
Which way round does it go?
(https://i.imgur.com/vfdV15p.jpg)
Here we go here we go
(https://i.imgur.com/nUwed7x.jpg)
Nice work Will 8).
I like those lots ! :-bd
Cheers - Phil. :)
:-bd =D> :-bd
Panzer IVd
(https://i.imgur.com/JRmlDmi.jpg)
Drat, did not notice the flock!
(https://i.imgur.com/gdutLrr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hSaWfIW.jpg)
And motorcyclists!
(https://i.imgur.com/MPTDN43.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TvKdCrI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jpvgdmh.jpg)
More good stuff
GRV136 Panzer IIC done and added to my Western European theatre Germans - what a model
(https://i.imgur.com/hYkUhOT.jpg)
Can see where the idea for the Dalek came from
(https://i.imgur.com/uIT7KZl.jpg)
Trundle trundle
(https://i.imgur.com/Dxvzn3I.jpg)
It looks soooo cool, thank you Leon
(https://i.imgur.com/58RoTs9.jpg)
Love the hatch details
(https://i.imgur.com/hBfuCtK.jpg)
Dakka
(https://i.imgur.com/200sQbi.jpg)
Now some French
SOMUA S35s
(https://i.imgur.com/ZaNJkMB.jpg)
Looking mean
(https://i.imgur.com/Ne5IgHG.jpg)
Really impressive figures, must not put off painting these for so long
(https://i.imgur.com/7QgmO3s.jpg)
Back view
(https://i.imgur.com/wWz846N.jpg)
Quite a tank
(https://i.imgur.com/Ax55S6D.jpg)
Here they come
(https://i.imgur.com/FcN0nih.jpg)
Renault R35s
(https://i.imgur.com/Kt75ffa.jpg)
Not sure a one man turret was the best plan
(https://i.imgur.com/KHsxWtX.jpg)
Here we go
(https://i.imgur.com/rYW0AMH.jpg)
Back view
(https://i.imgur.com/h0LwEFp.jpg)
Allez
(https://i.imgur.com/NQDg03a.jpg)
Waiting for trouble
(https://i.imgur.com/o9IC7Cj.jpg)
Mean and moody, might risk the Panhard next.
(https://i.imgur.com/LCZ9Vtm.jpg)
French infantry
(https://i.imgur.com/Ai9934O.jpg)
Ready...
(https://i.imgur.com/zzaRlPs.jpg)
Good news, they're on home soil
(https://i.imgur.com/rP856nr.jpg)
Few more squads to go after this
(https://i.imgur.com/b3aJeIp.jpg)
Come up quite well
(https://i.imgur.com/xBJg6L3.jpg)
Moving on
(https://i.imgur.com/DLp03gZ.jpg)
Hold the line, they'll never get through here!
(https://i.imgur.com/lP52Pbu.jpg)
Pretty sexy, but can they fight!!?? ;)
V/R,
Jack
Very nice, I particularly like the camouflage on the French tanks.
I've sometimes thought about doing WWII for the "Battle of France" period; basically attracted by the "Heath Robinson" appearance of the tanks.
I'm also very taken with the basing, what did you use for the green bushes on the tank bases? I used some Woodland Scenics "Briar Patch" for my tree bases and it was a nightmare to work with. It was very crumbly and it was like trying to glue down Shredded Wheat. The stuff is probably fine for 28mm, but just broke up when trying to use small quantities.
Faller dark green clump folliage, watered down pva under and over
QuoteFaller dark green clump folliage, watered down pva under and over
Thanks, I'll look out for some of that; gives a nice dense look.
Finishing off the French starter set https://www.pendraken.co.uk/nbkc-fr-nfrench-starter-army-4278-p.asp
Just need a company commander stand now (and many other things).
Infantry
(https://i.imgur.com/9AIOblS.jpg)
Get them lads!
(https://i.imgur.com/3wPXDVI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3hS3AN2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/l9jpXED.jpg)
Anti-tank guns, mortars and machineguns
(https://i.imgur.com/llGKQr6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4o3WVOc.jpg)
Added suport is always good!
(https://i.imgur.com/vLtEQzN.jpg)
Badly sited mortars?
(https://i.imgur.com/kcYc9tG.jpg)
Truck and Panhard armoured car
(https://i.imgur.com/VmSZ0rm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M6mdDLe.jpg)
Which way are we going?
(https://i.imgur.com/wksRifp.jpg)
Doesn't matter, the armoured car has a reverse driver!
(https://i.imgur.com/aYlrDIQ.jpg)
Liking the infantry, especially the basing. The mortar crews are brave (of deaf) being in front of the tubes!
Quote from: fred. on 23 April 2023, 07:49:31 AMThe mortar crews are brave (of deaf) being in front of the tubes!
Certainly not the drillbook position. Also having 2 ATG as close as those 25s would be frowned on. Excellent painting.
Knew there was a stand of French infantry missing, so here it is based up.
(https://i.imgur.com/7T01TXd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/u4wn9yV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E3LKwB1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Oz3vxsK.jpg)
French command stand, with attached anti-tank rifle, as no one else needs them!
(https://i.imgur.com/UPdnbks.jpg)
Bone jaw, my nome is...
(https://i.imgur.com/7UD90gG.jpg)
'Allo! 'Allo!
(https://i.imgur.com/uBRQ0p5.jpg)
The red top on their kepis is there, honest!
(https://i.imgur.com/1LRecep.jpg)
Two higher officers, an RTO, a staff car and an anti-tank rifle
(https://i.imgur.com/rrO3b38.jpg)
The whole French force*.
(https://i.imgur.com/VEgYD5n.jpg)
*WHo am I kidding? Yes, it will inevitably grow.
Well done. Those bases look great as well.
Second French command stand for BKC
(https://i.imgur.com/cVGnTJ2.jpeg)
Calling all the heroes?
(https://i.imgur.com/i4IUWw5.jpeg)
Had fun with the basing
(https://i.imgur.com/nuWx2tq.jpeg)
Second Panzer II, loe this model.
(https://i.imgur.com/0SnlZ97.jpeg)
Got to get some command teams at some point
(https://i.imgur.com/qbv1ztF.jpeg)
Hot exhaust
(https://i.imgur.com/OG2uf6d.jpeg)
Brrrmmm...
(https://i.imgur.com/sA5fl5v.jpeg)
Oh, and esxtra hit markers!
(https://i.imgur.com/LN6wBcC.jpeg)
I like the French command stand - a car always seems appropriate for these!
If you are taking photos of die holders, I really do think you are swerving painting caunter on your tanks!
Swerving, more like running away like Brave Sir Robin! ;D
Although I did find the official diagram for the paint scheme vehicle in question last night.
Get on with it! It's just triangles of colour. In 10mm there is quite a bit of leeway.
And it won't be as bad as Airfix using completely the wrong colours on their Matalida box for decades ;D
QuoteAnd it won't be as bad as Airfix using completely the wrong colours on their Matalida box for decades ;D
Airfix:
Matilda_Airfix.jpg
Bovington:
Matilda_Bovington.jpg
I thought this had been throughly debunked as the colours. It's it Mike Starmer who has reserched and written on this topic?
I'm just pointing out that if Airfix have it wrong they're not the only ones.
Looks like Bovington have done a repaint
https://tankmuseum.org/tank-nuts/tank-collection/matilda-ii
But they link to the Tamiya kit which is also in blue!