Brexit Update
From 1st January 2021 there will be changes to the ordering process that some of our customers will need to be aware of. Please note that this only affects customers in the EU, there are no changes at all for people outside of the EU.
1. Firstly, EU customers will no longer pay UK VAT (20%) on their orders. This will reduce the price of our standard packs from £5.50 to £4.58 instead.
2. EU customers will now pay the VAT of their own country when the package arrives in their country, similar to how you would currently receive an international package (eg. from the USA or Australia).
3. You may have to pay a handling fee to your own Customs department, but this will vary from country to country. From experience, not all packages are caught by the customs people so some customers might find that the package arrives without any charges at all.
4. All of this may change again on July 1st when the EU's planned VAT OSS system comes in. At this point we would start charging you the correct VAT for your country as part of your order and you would not have to pay any internal VAT charges or handling fees before you receive your package.
5. There will be no changes to our shipping rates at this time, we will hold these until we can see what increases are put in place by the various postal services.
If there's any questions then let me know, but please don't start getting into a political rants about this. It's happened now so we'll all just have to wait and see what happens over the coming months. No matter what the people in suits decide, we'll still be making little soldiers and posting them out to people all over the world!
>:<
Good luck all
Thanks Leon.
Good to know.
Thanks Leon
start looking at my next order
:- 20% off nice. Germany has 19% tax so wonder what their Handling fees will be.
Knowing my luck Germans are usually quite proficient so my parcels will be caught ;D
Regards
Sean
Thanks kid !
Quote from: sean66 on 29 December 2020, 06:39:39 AM
Thanks Leon
start looking at my next order
:- 20% off nice. Germany has 19% tax so wonder what their Handling fees will be.
Knowing my luck Germans are usually quite proficient so my parcels will be caught ;D
Regards
Sean
Its not the import tax in the UK, its the £8.50 flat rate charge the post office take for charging you the 20% vat. So you get a £20 order come from abroad. they charge 20% of the value vat so £4 and then charge you £8.50 for taking the vat, so charges are well over half the order value
Quote from: Orcs on 29 December 2020, 08:31:08 AM
Its not the import tax in the UK, its the £8.50 flat rate charge the post office take for charging you the 20% vat. So you get a £20 order come from abroad. they charge 20% of the value vat so £4 and then charge you £8.50 for taking the vat, so charges are well over half the order value
The handling fee is a pain in the backside, we get hit with that regularly on some of our imports.
There might be some good news there though, the UK government are changing how they charge imports, so anything up to £135 in value should now have VAT applied at the point of sale and you won't have to pay any handling charges when it lands in the UK. Of course the question there is how many foreign suppliers are going to go through the hassle of adding VAT functions to their websites and then paying it to HMRC... I'd love to see the compliance estimates on that!
Under the new rules anything over the £135 would be dealt with as before (VAT + handling fee), and anything being sent to a VAT-registered business would come through without any charges at all, and those companies will record it as part of their VAT returns.
Many thanks for the update Leon however, this still leaves me here in Northern Ireland in the unique position of while still being part of the UK we are also still stuck with the EU rules and regulations. I can just see the PO here trying to charge UK VAT and make the charge on packages from the rest of the UK arriving here. it seems the Uk gov and the IDIOTS on the HILL(the NI Assembly for the rest of you ;D) do not seem to have got their acts together and as from Jan 1 we will have an Irish Sea border between here and the rest of the Uk involving a lot of extra paperwork and governing what can and can't be sent from The Mainland to here. It will be interesting to see how this will affect orders from Mailnad manufacturers of "Shineys" arriving here. (Rant over )
With the Ireland Uk thing I noticed that in the last week or so, there was a bunch of firms closed down for a period that handled cross border postage. I can imagine that they'll start up again in the next month or two to handle a 3 stage thing to handle parcels from UK to Ireland, and Ireland to Europe to try and avoid a whole lot of issues (and causing a whole lot more)
That's bad news, handling fees are 7.50 here i believe.
Quote from: Nirnman on 29 December 2020, 10:13:45 AM
Many thanks for the update Leon however, this still leaves me here in Northern Ireland in the unique position of while still being part of the UK we are also still stuck with the EU rules and regulations. I can just see the PO here trying to charge UK VAT and make the charge on packages from the rest of the UK arriving here. it seems the Uk gov and the IDIOTS on the HILL(the NI Assembly for the rest of you ;D) do not seem to have got their acts together and as from Jan 1 we will have an Irish Sea border between here and the rest of the Uk involving a lot of extra paperwork and governing what can and can't be sent from The Mainland to here. It will be interesting to see how this will affect orders from Mailnad manufacturers of "Shineys" arriving here. (Rant over )
I'm afraid we've not had any final guidance on NI as yet, they still seem to be figuring it out which is concerning given that this all comes into force in 3 days... As far as I was aware NI remains part of the UK for VAT so there shouldn't be any additional VAT on entry. I'll see what I can find out and let you know.
Quote from: petercooman on 29 December 2020, 11:48:38 AM
That's bad news, handling fees are 7.50 here i believe.
The fees are the nuisance in all of this, I'd hoped that something could be agreed as part of the deal but no luck unfortunately. But if VAT OSS comes in as planned then it's only a short-term issue and the handling fees won't be needed after July 1st.
Quote from: Leon on 29 December 2020, 03:16:24 PM
I'm afraid we've not had any final guidance on NI as yet, they still seem to be figuring it out which is concerning given that this all comes into force in 3 days... As far as I was aware NI remains part of the UK for VAT so there shouldn't be any additional VAT on entry. I'll see what I can find out and let you know.
The fees are the nuisance in all of this, I'd hoped that something could be agreed as part of the deal but no luck unfortunately. But if VAT OSS comes in as planned then it's only a short-term issue and the handling fees won't be needed after July 1st.
Leon, is there any knowledge what will happen to pick up orders? For example if i order a pickup at crisis (if it can take place) , would it also via the VAT OSS system? since it's after july?
Quote from: Nirnman on 29 December 2020, 10:13:45 AM
Many thanks for the update Leon however, this still leaves me here in Northern Ireland in the unique position of while still being part of the UK we are also still stuck with the EU rules and regulations. I can just see the PO here trying to charge UK VAT and make the charge on packages from the rest of the UK arriving here. it seems the Uk gov and the IDIOTS on the HILL(the NI Assembly for the rest of you ;D) do not seem to have got their acts together and as from Jan 1 we will have an Irish Sea border between here and the rest of the Uk involving a lot of extra paperwork and governing what can and can't be sent from The Mainland to here. It will be interesting to see how this will affect orders from Mailnad manufacturers of "Shineys" arriving here. (Rant over )
As far as I'm aware the VAT is the same, the issue is more around goods that have tariff requirements. So our food will be more pricy (that which we can still get from the companies not pulling out due to additional admin) but at least our 'shineys' shouldn't be any more expensive. One to keep an eye on as the details get sorted out.
Have you ensured that the Pendraken website conforms to modern standards (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55475433) though?
Quote from: petercooman on 29 December 2020, 04:31:11 PM
Leon, is there any knowledge what will happen to pick up orders? For example if i order a pickup at crisis (if it can take place) , would it also via the VAT OSS system? since it's after july?
Nothing confirmed yet, but I believe that we would charge you Belgian VAT on the purchase (as the sale happened in Belgium) and then we would have to complete a customs declaration at the EU/UK border to say how much product we sold. We'd then have to pay the correct VAT, either on the spot or they would invoice us for later payment.
I think the extra paperwork and charges will make Crisis very difficult for UK traders, as many of the smaller ones are not VAT-registered in the UK, so the Belgian VAT would be an additional expense that they do not usually have. They would have to either sell at their usual prices and pay the VAT out of their profits. Or add the VAT on top of their prices which could reduce the potential sales.
That latter issue is a problem for a lot of smaller UK companies now, as their larger competitors can remove the VAT from EU orders to make the product appear cheaper. And the smaller companies packages will still get caught by EU customs and get the additional charges added, making them a lot more expensive.
Quote from: Raider4 on 29 December 2020, 08:44:36 PM
Have you ensured that the Pendraken website conforms to modern standards (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55475433) though?
Thankfully Netscape had disappeared before I started college...!
It would be interesting to know how much money British wargame companies make out of selling to the EU
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 29 December 2020, 09:58:54 PM
It would be interesting to know how much money British wargame companies make out of selling to the EU
This year our EU sales have been about 15% of our turnover (UK is 70%, North America 12%, RoW 3%).
Quote from: Leon on 29 December 2020, 08:49:41 PM
Nothing confirmed yet, but I believe that we would charge you Belgian VAT on the purchase (as the sale happened in Belgium) and then we would have to complete a customs declaration at the EU/UK border to say how much product we sold. We'd then have to pay the correct VAT, either on the spot or they would invoice us for later payment.
I think the extra paperwork and charges will make Crisis very difficult for UK traders, as many of the smaller ones are not VAT-registered in the UK, so the Belgian VAT would be an additional expense that they do not usually have. They would have to either sell at their usual prices and pay the VAT out of their profits. Or add the VAT on top of their prices which could reduce the potential sales.
That latter issue is a problem for a lot of smaller UK companies now, as their larger competitors can remove the VAT from EU orders to make the product appear cheaper. And the smaller companies packages will still get caught by EU customs and get the additional charges added, making them a lot more expensive.
Thankfully Netscape had disappeared before I started college...!
Ok, hopefully the impact will not be too bad, would be a shame to lose the uk traders at crisis! There's a lot of non uk traders that xome to crisis, but a lot of them are resellers. Would be a shame to see the manufacturers themselves stay away.
One point to remeber - on the customs declaration form for BKC/CWC/FWC and suplements don't forget to put publication on it, otherwise the customs will chare VAT. Got caught that way once.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 30 December 2020, 11:58:43 AM
One point to remeber - on the customs declaration form for BKC/CWC/FWC and suplements don't forget to put publication on it, otherwise the customs will chare VAT. Got caught that way once.
I'll make a note to check on that, it's done electronically through the Royal Mail system now so it should be OK.
I'm not worried in the slightest. Which has about the easiest to digest and sensible explanation of what the Brexit Agreement means for the consumer. See https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/12/brexit-deal-what-it-means-for-food-prices-consumer-rights-and-more/
Essentially prices of food and goods will not increase because no tariffs are being applied to goods or food traded between the UK and the EU, unless there are fluctuations in exchange rate/supply/demand, which has always been the case.
I predict that in twelve months time it will be as if nothing had changed.
Quote from: John Cook on 31 December 2020, 02:23:08 PM
I'm not worried in the slightest. Which has about the easiest to digest and sensible explanation of what the Brexit Agreement means for the consumer. See https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/12/brexit-deal-what-it-means-for-food-prices-consumer-rights-and-more/
Essentially prices of food and goods will not increase because no tariffs are being applied to goods or food traded between the UK and the EU, unless there are fluctuations in exchange rate/supply/demand, which has always been the case.
I predict that in twelve months time it will be as if nothing had changed.
Yep I totally agree John
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 29 December 2020, 09:58:54 PM
It would be interesting to know how much money British wargame companies make out of selling to the EU
I think a few of the company's will have roughly the same turn over as Leon mentions.
I know that GW has 2 shops in Nuremberg selling their stuff (1 is a GW)
So it'll be interesting to see how they manage. I find the German Wargaming scene
Was mostly Sci Fi or earlier wargaming. They seemed to shy away from WW1
And 2.
Tactica in Hamburg only really had 2 U.K. vendors the last few times I've gone
Regards
Sean
They will manage fine, I'm sure. Imports from UK will not attract tariffs and Mehrwertsteuer (German VAT) will be applied in accordance with EU rules, as it always has.
Every expert says it's not that simple.
We have chosen not to charge tariffs (which has it's own knock on), but the paperwork now has to be done. It's not just about the price of lettuce.
Every 'expert' has been predicting doom and gloom for the past four years and the media has been uniformly negative. They have all been wrong so far. The UK exports more to the rest of the world than it does to the EU and the 'paperwork' does not seem to be an impediment to that. I just don't see it as an issue. On balance I would have preferred we remained in the EU but it is what it is.
Quote from: John Cook on 01 January 2021, 02:19:37 PM
Every 'expert' has been predicting doom and gloom for the past four years and the media has been uniformly negative.
You haven't noticed the Murdoch and Barclay brothers press????
Quote from: John Cook on 01 January 2021, 02:19:37 PM
Every 'expert' has been predicting doom and gloom for the past four years and the media has been uniformly negative. They have all been wrong so far. The UK exports more to the rest of the world than it does to the EU and the 'paperwork' does not seem to be an impediment to that. I just don't see it as an issue. On balance I would have preferred we remained in the EU but it is what it is.
Hear him!
I'm a little surprised Techno hasn't issued one of his 'politics' warnings, all have been very civil so far...
Quote from: paulr on 02 January 2021, 01:48:55 AM
I'm a little surprised Techno hasn't issued one of his 'politics' warnings, all have been very civil so far...
Yes it has been very civil so I suppose that is why. The thing is it isn't really political per se, it's a bit more parochial than that and related to fears about the wargames business. But, I'm done on the subject except to say that I'm sure it is going to be fine in the end, people will get used to the new rules and regulations and I look forward to a trade deal with the US so I can buy stuff tariff-free from Good Ground and Tin Soldier.
Quote from: paulr on 02 January 2021, 01:48:55 AM
I'm a little surprised Techno hasn't issued one of his 'politics' warnings, all have been very civil so far...
I
have been keeping an eye on this.. ;)
Cheers - Phil :)
Quote from: John Cook on 02 January 2021, 02:08:08 AM
...I look forward to a trade deal with the US so I can buy stuff tariff-free from Good Ground and Tin Soldier.
I'd be on board with that but it would need some substantial changes from the previous TTIP agreement we were looking at in 2016.
Quote from: Leon on 02 January 2021, 04:00:54 PM
I'd be on board with that but it would need some substantial changes from the previous TTIP agreement we were looking at in 2016.
Whatever the benefit for aged wargamers such as myself I am sure that overall any trade deal would be massively to the advantage of the US and in particular their more rapacious corporations.
Quote from: John Cook on 31 December 2020, 02:23:08 PM
I predict that in twelve months time it will be as if nothing had changed.
I agree, everything will mostly carry on as before, after the initial teething troubles are worked out/around.
There will be unintended consequences (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331) though.
Today's quote:
"For you, Tommy, ze picnic is over".
Brexit: UK driver has ham sandwiches confiscated at Dutch border
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331)
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 02 January 2021, 06:37:49 PM
Whatever the benefit for aged wargamers such as myself I am sure that overall any trade deal would be massively to the advantage of the US and in particular their more rapacious corporations.
I'm no longer so confident about that hormone-treated beef.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/760fc0041624e199fcb139f9a7ef87edbbcb61b4/0_0_5000_3333/master/5000.jpg?width=300&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=e491e02c1755f71093b6627c6ee15286)
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 12 January 2021, 06:27:14 PM
I'm no longer so confident about that hormone-treated beef.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/760fc0041624e199fcb139f9a7ef87edbbcb61b4/0_0_5000_3333/master/5000.jpg?width=300&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=e491e02c1755f71093b6627c6ee15286)
The really frightening thing is that the guy only ate chicken
It's all very well Jay Kay saying that's not a picture of him...But I'm not convinced ! :D
(Don't think I've ever heard anything by Jamiroquai.......I probably wouldn't like it, anyway. ;))
Cheers - Phil :)
First order got across the 'Brexit Border' into Bavaria
and no handling fees or tax ;)
a very chilly -13 here this morning. -4 in my garage :o
but new figures for a new project and hopefully into the painting competition.
Regards
Sean
History demonstrates that when countries focus on nationalism very poor decisions are made. [With thanks to the Tim Traveller, who has now moved to France to protect his freedom of movement.]
Quote from: Leman on 11 February 2021, 07:37:29 AM
History demonstrates that when countries focus on nationalism very poor decisions are made. [With thanks to the Tim Traveller, who has now moved to France to protect his freedom of movement.]
I worry that the "solution" worked out for the Ireland/Northern Ireland/GB border is going to unravel very quickly.
As we have made our USP Financial Services, I am a little concerned that Amsterdam has overtaken London as Europe's biggest share trading centre. Odd as Frankfurt or the Paris Bourse/Euronext were touted as the major competitors. Brexit is surprising lots of people.
The English language, I expect.
Not really a surprise to me now I live over here. The Dutch have a way of organising things so that they run as smoothly as possible without tying it all up with too much red tape and formality. Couldn't believe it when the Maori was thrown out of the New Zealand parliament because he wasn't wearing a tie. Mark Rutte is seen as often without one as with.
I've always the Dutch to be generally pretty relaxed and cool about things. Until they're not. At which point you find an excuse to be elsewhere pronto.
Quote from: Raider4 on 11 February 2021, 10:50:56 PM
I worry that the "solution" worked out for the Ireland/Northern Ireland/GB border is going to unravel very quickly.
I worry about a return of violence and the lack of concern seemingly shown by the British public at large
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 13 February 2021, 10:21:50 PM
I worry about a return of violence and the lack of concern seemingly shown by the British public at large
I'm wary that talk of brexit matters can get a tad uncivilised so not intending to raise any hackles, this is just my "local" perspective.
I'd say there's a general sense here that the government would be glad to be rid of NI, and most of the UK wouldn't really care (except maybe Scotland?). It has certainly pushed the case for a United Ireland forward a few years and made a lot of people who were previously ambivalent or soft unionists look at it more seriously. There's been a lot of concern that hard unionists will make serious trouble, there's been a fair bit of "chatter" amongst hardliners and threats against those working the new border ports. The leading unionist party (DUP) have seen a massive popularity drop as many of their core blame them for the issues and are flocking to the even more hard-line unionist party (TUV). This is likely to result in SF taking the first minister position in the next election and treating that as a mandate for a border poll, provided the DUP don't try and collapse the executive like they and SF did for three years pre-covid. I suspect uniting Ireland would end up as complicated and messy as brexit mind you and the calls for immediate border polls are irresponsible without a plan for what it would look like and proper discussions on how it would work given the differences between the North and South. Still, definitely a risk of some violence this riot season...eh I mean summer...given the anger amongst unionists towards what they perceive as a betrayal and a push away from Britain towards Dublin's orbit.
Regardless, between NI and Scotland, and shifting opinions amongst younger generations, I'd not be surprised if the UK ceased to be as a political entity in my lifetime, or at least shrunk considerably. Even the future of the monarchy is looking uncertain these days.
Quote from: Leman on 13 February 2021, 10:01:08 AM
... Couldn't believe it when the Maori was thrown out of the New Zealand parliament because he wasn't wearing a tie. Mark Rutte is seen as often without one as with.
The Speaker had surveyed members late last year and the feedback was that ties should still be required, he had to enforce the existing rules...
Standing orders committee met that evening and made ties optional #-o
I think it's not a lack of concern by the UK populace abut N.I , but a lack of understanding of the historical and religious context behind the divisions. Particularly where most of society in the UK has little to do with religion in any form. People do not see why they can,t get along and much of the senseless killing seemed to be almost at random.
To fight by SF to be taken as serious force then refuse to take your place as an MP does seem daft. Particularly when the Labour Party orriginally only had one MP and managed to get great changes in only 24 years. ( i.e. The welfare state).. We are now 22 years since the Good Friday agreement and 37 years since SF got their first MP and they do not seem to have chafed anything.
Is it not also an issue true that the para militaries of both sides have continued as criminal gangs?
Quote from: Orcs on 14 February 2021, 08:33:40 AM
I think it's not a lack of concern by the UK populace abut N.I , but a lack of understanding of the historical and religious context behind the divisions. Particularly where most of society in the UK has little to do with religion in any form. People do not see why they can,t get along and much of the senseless killing seemed to be almost at random.
To fight by SF to be taken as serious force then refuse to take your place as an MP does seem daft. Particularly when the Labour Party orriginally only had one MP and managed to get great changes in only 24 years. ( i.e. The welfare state).. We are now 22 years since the Good Friday agreement and 37 years since SF got their first MP and they do not seem to have chafed anything.
Is it not also an issue true that the para militaries of both sides have continued as criminal gangs?
Yeah that's a fair appraisal. To be honest even many of my generation and especially younger have a hard time understanding it as the country is becoming more secular and mixed. As a kid growing up from a Protestant background I could count the number of Catholics I met on one hand. But as an adult many friends, colleagues and family are from Catholic backgrounds, though very few of them practicing. Typically those who are genuinely religious tend not to be particularly hard line politically in my experience, though that may not be true across the region. I do hope this shift in secularism and global perspective continues. Certainly politically we've seen a moderate non sectarian party grow to become the third biggest, and I suspect if more of my peers actually bothered to vote rather than spouting nonsense about it not making any difference we'd see that swing even more.
I'd say the sectarian divide is largely a non issue amongst a growing swathe of the population, particularly amongst younger and more educated and affluent areas. In truth religion is only really paid lip service by many of the sectarians these days, being more an issue of "tradition" and "culture". The political divide between unionist and nationalist is the real underlying division.
You're completely right about the paramilitaries being criminal gangs. They always were criminals but past attempts to legitimise it as freedom fighting and the like doesn't really hold water. Now they present themselves as "community leaders" which is a euphemism for extortion racketeers and drug dealers, and will punish those who step out of line. This primarily happens amongst the poorer areas and estates, so sadly keeps a segment of the population stuck in the past and continue to be brainwashed about their respective traditions and small perspective.
I do think SF approach of absenteeism has done more harm for them than good, as they could have provided a counter balance to the DUP in Westminster in any number of matters, particularly where social matters were at stake, but with both of them pride is more important than sense.
Oof that ended up more of an essay than intended!
In other news, it seems Boris has ditched his idea of a bridge between NI and Scotland and instead is going to build a tunnel. Though how exactly it'll avoid the munitions dump in the middle I don't know.
"Though how exactly it'll avoid the munitions dump in the middle I don't know."
Isn't that the one thats full of mustard gas?
(Couple of good posts by the way on the situation in NI)
Quote from: sultanbev on 14 February 2021, 01:48:26 PM
"Though how exactly it'll avoid the munitions dump in the middle I don't know."
Isn't that the one thats full of mustard gas?
(Couple of good posts by the way on the situation in NI)
Thanks :)
Yep, Beaufort's Dyke, the one full of all the dumped munitions from the world wars as well as nuclear waste up until the fifties...could end badly!
This will be an exciting spring for me re Brexit. I left the UK 10 years ago to move back to the old country. Every year I've still had to fill in my tax return for Her Majesty, stating that "nothing to declare, nothing to pay, not in the UK anymore". Easy enough with self assessment. Let's see if this year the system realises that I am not really a subject anymore :)
Also realised over the weekend that in the UK you can cash out your pension when you are 55. Which august milestone I did reach two months before the UK parted ways with Europe. I wonder what is going to happen now to my meager savings in the coffers of the pension scheme. Perhaps I can transfer it to a UK bank account and from there to Pendraken :D
Cheers,
Aksu
I wouldn't bother filling in a self assessment return if I were you.
Far as I'm aware you can ionly cash out private pensions -the govt one you have to wait for, but you will get it.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 16 February 2021, 07:35:44 AM
Far as I'm aware you can ionly cash out private pensions -the govt one you have to wait for, but you will get it.
:- not too sure on this, in 12 years time who knows where the pension date will be.
Regards
Sean
99.99999999999% certain Ian's right on that !
I don't think there's anyway you can get your State Pension early..(or cash in a lump sum)....and of course, the State Pension 'age requirement' is going up and up. :(
Like Sean says....goodness knows where it will be in 12 years time.
Cheers - Phil. :)
Luckily i have a Military pension.
that I'm already getting. 55 next month so that goes index linked (just in time for my final divorce bill) ;D
Regards
Sean
Quote from: Techno II on 16 February 2021, 07:52:28 AM
99.99999999999% certain Ian's right on that !
I'm always right - NOT
Got my state pension from 06/01/2020, I was 65 in May 2019. The original ages for pesions were set so that most people would never get them - average age of death for males in 1906 was 65 1/2, and women 59 ish.
I'm fairly sure those under 40 will never see a state pension as it's predicted to run dry in the next 15-20 years even as they raise the retirement age more and more.
Just have to focus on building up workplace and private pensions and save what we can for the future (assuming interest on savings ever becomes a thing again...).
I'll try not to be political here. I really will :)
The state pension pot will only 'run dry' if political will desires it to run dry.
There are simple ways to take care of everyone to a basic level if we are willing to elect governments that want to.
It is a policy decision, not a an immutable fact of life.
Private pension funds have a very chequered history.
Indeed.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 16 February 2021, 07:35:44 AM
Far as I'm aware you can ionly cash out private pensions -the govt one you have to wait for, but you will get it.
Aye, and the first 25% is cash free!
The rest isn't though - according to an online calculator the rest is taxed at about 40% :Ph :Ph :Ph :Ph :Ph
'tax free', not 'cash free'. Doh!
Quote from: mmcv on 16 February 2021, 08:57:18 AM
I'm fairly sure those under 40 will never see a state pension as it's predicted to run dry in the next 15-20 years even as they raise the retirement age more and more.
Just have to focus on building up workplace and private pensions and save what we can for the future (assuming interest on savings ever becomes a thing again...).
Not sure what you are alluding to. It might well be the case that the real value of the pension declines but politicians have always used the NI income as additional general tax rather than having it squirrelled away in a distinct pension savings arrangement. [As is well known, a businessman acting in the way politicians have done would be put in jail]. The reason for Automatic Enrolment arrangements has much to do with changes in pension provision and moving risk from the employer to the employee. Business also got an opportunity to boost profits. 20 years ago the switch from defined benefits to defined contribution was not a big issue except that businesses needed to put 16% of payroll into pensions; what they actually did was put 6% into pensions and pocketed the difference. Eventually the government woke up to the fact that long-term they were going to get a heap of Social Security claims from the elderly who either had no private pension or a very limited one. Hence now there is a minimum requirement for 9% through compulsory arrangements.
I agree with your general premise that it is better to act on your own. I did: I put money into Equitable and bought bank shares. <Yes, truly I did, I am not making it up.> Safest investment approach you could have. What could go wrong? So don't take any money advice from me!
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 16 February 2021, 03:03:52 PM
Not sure what you are alluding to. It might well be the case that the real value of the pension declines but politicians have always used the NI income as additional general tax rather than having it squirrelled away in a distinct pension savings arrangement. [As is well known, a businessman acting in the way politicians have done would be put in jail]. The reason for Automatic Enrolment arrangements has much to do with changes in pension provision and moving risk from the employer to the employee. Business also got an opportunity to boost profits. 20 years ago the switch from defined benefits to defined contribution was not a big issue except that businesses needed to put 16% of payroll into pensions; what they actually did was put 6% into pensions and pocketed the difference. Eventually the government woke up to the fact that long-term they were going to get a heap of Social Security claims from the elderly who either had no private pension or a very limited one. Hence now there is a minimum requirement for 9% through compulsory arrangements.
I agree with your general premise that it is better to act on your own. I did: I put money into Equitable and bought bank shares. <Yes, truly I did, I am not making it up.> Safest investment approach you could have. What could go wrong? So don't take any money advice from me!
Was just an article I remembered reading: https://citywire.co.uk/funds-insider/news/state-pension-fund-running-out-warns-government-actuary/a1082316.
But yes, always best to diversify a bit, rather than relying on a single source of income.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 16 February 2021, 03:03:52 PM
[As is well known, a businessman acting in the way politicians have done would be put in jail].
But they do - several large companies have underinvested in their pension schemes while taking large dividends, leaving their pension funds empty.
And they don't. They walk off and start another company.
NI contributions have never been a hypothecated tax.
Quote from: Gwydion on 17 February 2021, 12:57:41 AM
But they do - several large companies have underinvested in their pension schemes while taking large dividends, leaving their pension funds empty.
And they don't. They walk off and start another company.
NI contributions have never been a hypothecated tax.
Taking money, using it for purposes other than originally stated and then expecting future payments from different individuals to cover liabilities arising from the investment of the first is known as a PONZI scheme. Individuals have been put in jail; I have yet to hear of any politician being similarly treated. Unfortunately, messing around with pension money, such as doing a Maxwell [a phrase coined for a £500 million instance], is frequently excused as making poor investment decisions. I have worked at a company that suffered such an indignity; the CEO got booted out but the cost to him was limited to the loss of position (and, IMHO, his bloated and inappropriate remuneration package). Those who get away with it cast an unpleasant shadow on the many hard working ones who do not earn telephone-number salaries.
Hypothecation has never been accepted by HM Treasury, which is another instance of Governments insisting we do as they say rather than do as they do. A pity they could not think like the
Government Pension Fund of Norway.
The CITYWIRE article just indicates that the government is going to struggle to balance the books, which is hardly a surprise. Having to make difficult decisions is why politicians are there.
And we are getting way off topic.
Predictions like this have been around for the past 20 years, probably longer. This article says nothing new. It goes on to explain that "If the system is to continue to cover the current form of state pension and other benefits, then either the fund's income has to rise or expenditure has to be controlled". Brilliant! Who would have thought it. That has always been the case and I think even the dullest GCSE maths student would come to the same conclusion.
National Insurance contributions are used to pay benefits, including the state pension, and the NI fund may be in deficit, in balance or in surplus from year to year. Deficits are made good by money provided by the treasury. There is no question that benefits cannot be paid.
Any surplus, after benefits have been paid, has always been used for other purposes, most recently, I think, propping up the NHS but it is usually invested, typically to help reduce national debt. Legislation allows this and it too has always been the case. There is nothing unusual or illegal about it.
Quote from: mmcv on 16 February 2021, 08:57:18 AM
I'm fairly sure those under 40 will never see a state pension as it's predicted to run dry in the next 15-20 years even as they raise the retirement age more and more.
Just have to focus on building up workplace and private pensions and save what we can for the future (assuming interest on savings ever becomes a thing again...).
I expect it may well become means tested or they will just not increase it each year so it will gradually become insignificant.
the problem for the Younger ones is that interest rates are almost non existant, so its hard to make the pot grow. What the youngsters need is a reasonable level of inflation to up the interest rates and the pay settlements.
Otherwise they will have to work till they drop, unless they somehow manage to get on the housing market
Quote from: Orcs on 18 February 2021, 09:02:46 AM
I expect it may well become means tested or they will just not increase it each year so it will gradually become insignificant.
the problem for the Younger ones is that interest rates are almost non existant, so its hard to make the pot grow. What the youngsters need is a reasonable level of inflation to up the interest rates and the pay settlements.
Otherwise they will have to work till they drop, unless they somehow manage to get on the housing market
Yeah I was fortunate enough to be able to get onto the housing market and now in the position of moving to a new house (though it's had its fair share of roadbumps and we still haven't got a date and stamp duty deadline is looming) so at least have some form of assets. But I reckon improving healthcare and longer lifespans will see people working well into their seventies becoming the norm in the not too distant future.
National Insurance benefits are, and always have been, funded on a "pay as you go" basis. I think it was Bevin himself who made the remark that the great secret about the National Insurance Fund is that there is no Fund. It was intended to reassure workers that their NICs were safe and being kept for the purpose intended.
Calls for a separate ring fenced fund fail to understand the issues involved in government finances. A government cannot just leave a vast amount amount of public cash lying around. There will be calls for these monies to be invested and there arises the question "invested in what"? Private sector pension funds are required to have a certain proportion in Government bonds ("gilts"), so should the Government invest in gilts?
This would give rise to the Government issuing gilts to itself and paying the proceeds into the Consolidated Fund ("CF"), where it would still need to be invested to ensure that taxpayers' interests are looked after. To avoid this circular activity the monies might just as well be paid into the CF and meet the liabilities from the CF as they arise; which is what happens now.
Despite its name the Government Pension Fund of Norway is funded by oil revenues not citizens' pension contributions.
The Norwegian Government Pension Fund Global was established in 1990, primed by oil revenue in a deliberate attempt to maintain a national benefit from North Sea exploitation rather than binge on it. It has a massive investment portfolio and is disinvesting from oil and gas.
It is not just a 'pension' fund despite the name, and is designed to smooth out economic fluctuations and provide a continuing benefit to all Norwegians when oil runs out (or becomes a legacy energy source).
However, the Norwegians do have a huge advantage in that there are nowhere near 65 million of them, with a substantial number of elderly, unemployed and under 18s/21s. Plus what did the UK do with its oil and gas revenue other than give it to Sid?
The NI you pay won't cover the pension for most people.
Most importantly they can't invest it to pay later, because it is needed to pay pensions for those already retired. Their NI payer for the generation above and so on. Mostly because the first people to get it obviously couldn't have paid in while they were working.
The etymology of the word "currency' roots in the same as "current" (as in water,not bun), meaning to flow. An important function of government is to keep the money moving. Its generally accepted that a small government annual deficit is a good thing, as it pumps money into the economy.
Quote from: Gwydion on 20 February 2021, 12:14:05 PM
The Norwegian Government Pension Fund Global was established in 1990, primed by oil revenue in a deliberate attempt to maintain a national benefit from North Sea exploitation rather than binge on it. It has a massive investment portfolio and is disinvesting from oil and gas.
It is not just a 'pension' fund despite the name, and is designed to smooth out economic fluctuations and provide a continuing benefit to all Norwegians when oil runs out (or becomes a legacy energy source).
Jolly clever these Norwegians.
If only we had a similar sized pool of financial expertise.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 13 March 2021, 10:08:32 AM
Jolly clever these Norwegians.
Aye, and they generate > 95% of all their electricity using hydro power.
Would love to go to Norway one day.
Although I remember it being described to me in ~1990 as "a gloomy land where beer costs £4 a pint" . . .
£6 a pint nowadays.
Quote from: Raider4 on 13 March 2021, 11:27:14 AM
Aye, and they generate > 95% of all their electricity using hydro power.
Would love to go to Norway one day.
Although I remember it being described to me in ~1990 as "a gloomy land where beer costs £4 a pint" . . .
Even so I can't imagine its worse than the pubs in my home town
What 'tees' me off is......Why ?...When it's cold....Do they switch on the enormous fans (Three ? miles away from us, on top of a hill) when it's cold ?
The oiks never switch them on, in the Summer, when we could use a cooling breeze.
What a complete waste of electric power.
(I know...I've used the same joke, before. ;))
Cheers- Phil :)
Quote from: Techno II on 13 March 2021, 12:37:48 PM
(I know...I've used the same joke, before. ;))
Cheers- Phil :)
JOKE - what JOKE :'(
You complete, and utter Muppet ! ;) ;D ;D ;D
(Heck....I've missed the updated 'Honours' list, for FAR too long.).....
Nominations, anyone ?
Cheers - Phil :)
Quote from: Techno II on 13 March 2021, 12:56:12 PM
You complete, and utter Muppet ! ;) ;D ;D ;D
(Heck....I've missed the updated 'Honours' list, for FAR too long.).....
Nominations, anyone ?
Cheers - Phil :)
µI nominate techno for 'most likely to get a trip to emergency care' again
Signature chaged with Royal Consent - thanks Phil n :P
Quote from: Raider4 on 13 March 2021, 11:27:14 AM
Aye, and they generate > 95% of all their electricity using hydro power.
Would love to go to Norway one day.
Although I remember it being described to me in ~1990 as "a gloomy land where beer costs £4 a pint" . . .
I went one December. (Kristiansand - easy and cheap to reach in normal times via the LegoLand airport in Denmark). Its certainly chilly but far from gloomy. My general experience is that smaller cities are less gloomy than the big capitals in every country I've ever visited. My main recollections are drinking in a kind of mini indoor shopping mall which became one giant pub so people kind of sat outside but were actually inside and eating giant steaks from Rudolf's mates.
Spent many months in Norway over the years during my time in the Air Force, beer in the 1990s was £6 a pint , thoroughly enjoyed it all over, Norwegians are similar to us lovely people in the main.Food horrendously expensive as is pretty much anything although the things you can get with spare bottle of spirits...... :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) superb.
I spent 7 winters in Norway as a Royal Marine, bloody cold, expensive beer and no women anywhere near the places they sent us lol
But you volunteered to join the armed forces.
Are you suggesting,"You shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke," Leman?
Hello Leon,
Do you have any news about the OSS system and and our prefered miniature supplier shipping procedure ?
Thank you,
Michel.
Sorry, I just see it has already been answered in an other post ! :o
Thanks anyway 8)
Michel.
Not sure I see the joke. Do expostulate.