I 've just seen that Warlord Games are releasing the following early next year, with a free sprue with Wargames Illustrated. No idea what scale the figures are as it doesn't say. Interesting that another company is offering smaller scale figures.
https://store.warlordgames.com/products/epic-battles-american-civil-war?_pos=1&_sid=935cb77c9&_ss=r (https://store.warlordgames.com/products/epic-battles-american-civil-war?_pos=1&_sid=935cb77c9&_ss=r)
Scale seems a little ambiguous at the minute, discussion on LAF suggests small 15s
13.5mm foot to eye. I kid you not!
Me and a few others were discussing yesterday and trying to work it out. Finally found the 13.5mm to the eyes. The bit we are still baffled by is 30 battalions meaning 3000 figs - 100 per battalion??
I think they would benefit from greater clarity in the way they marketed it - maybe needed to rush the ad out?? But another scale?
Richard
The rules are BP
Quote from: rct75001 on 20 December 2020, 10:37:40 PM
Me and a few others were discussing yesterday and trying to work it out. Finally found the 13.5mm to the eyes. The bit we are still baffled by is 30 battalions meaning 3000 figs - 100 per battalion??
I think they would benefit from greater clarity in the way they marketed it - maybe needed to rush the ad out?? But another scale?
Richard
Each battalion has 5 bases, 20 figures (2 strips of 10) per base, one of the bases is a command base.
Worth a look.
If there are 5 bases to the regiment, this is still going to be a big table game. If 1 base to a regiment, then significantly less so. I'm not sure I would want to paint or own 100 figure regiments even on a fast paint basis.
Size wise, they probably need to be seen in the flesh for gamers to decide whether they want to lock themselves into the scale and there also needs to be some certainty that other elements will follow shortly (cav, mounted and dismounted), surprising that these do not make an appearance as part of the initial line-up.
The best thing about this, with their advertising power, it will force our media to shine a light on the smaller scales and wargame shows will start to get the proper scale diversity going on, with both demo games and traders supporting smaller scales. About time too.
QuoteThe best thing about this, with their advertising power, it will force our media to shine a light on the smaller scales and wargame shows will start to get the proper scale diversity going on, with both demo games and traders supporting smaller scales. About time too.
I completely agree Norm.
As for them being 13.5mm to the eye, you might as well call them 15mm!
I've seen on another forum they are cast in strips with the figures joined at the upper arms.
Best wishes,
Martin
Another odd decision which seems to be more for commercial reasons than benefiting the hobby, but I suppose newcomers into wargaming might see it as a handy starting point to jump in? I can't get my head around the scaling though, why choose something as random as 13.5mm?! I've seen the updated images where it looks like they'll match up with Kallistra but I'd imagine that's more coincidence than any planned result.
But they're obviously a much bigger company than us so they must know what they're doing!
Quote from: Smoking gun on 21 December 2020, 07:43:52 PM
I've seen on another forum they are cast in strips with the figures joined at the upper arms.
They should be a breeze to paint.
For Union paint the whole strip black, paint the upper half of the body dark blue, paint the trousers sky blue, black on crossbelts, brown/gunmetal on muskets, dab of flesh on face/hands. Done.
For Rebs a bit more grey and butternut.
Quote from: Leon on 21 December 2020, 10:01:51 PM
Another odd decision which seems to be more for commercial reasons than benefiting the hobby, but I suppose newcomers into wargaming might see it as a handy starting point to jump in? I can't get my head around the scaling though, why choose something as random as 13.5mm?! I've seen the updated images where it looks like they'll match up with Kallistra but I'd imagine that's more coincidence than any planned result.
But they're obviously a much bigger company than us so they must know what they're doing!
I agree more with you first comment than your last ;)
Warlord do have history of acquiring figure ranges putting them into production, then leaving them rather isolated.
Great if either you are 15 and just getting into wargaming (as opposed to the mighty, ferociously endless despicable.......etc,etc) or just getting into the ACW. Otherwise there are more complete and more varied options elsewhere. As for epic - 2/3mm, 6mm or 10mm seems to be the best bet.
Quote from: Leon on 21 December 2020, 10:01:51 PM
Another odd decision which seems to be more for commercial reasons than benefiting the hobby, but I suppose newcomers into wargaming might see it as a handy starting point to jump in? I can't get my head around the scaling though, why choose something as random as 13.5mm?! I've seen the updated images where it looks like they'll match up with Kallistra but I'd imagine that's more coincidence than any planned result.
It is to stop people using their existing figures
The A5 sized Black Powder ruleset looks like a real winner, ideal for the gaming table. The current rules, although well organised and easy to read and play (see recent blogs from SteveJ) are hardback A4 making it a bit unwieldy unless used as a close assault weapon. The figures look like they match up well to Kallistra ACW. For a beginner this is a great set and perfect introduction, imaging being 12 years old and getting one of these for Christmas or a Birthday. For us grumpy old Grognards who are no doubt committed to our beloved metal ranges it does look like an odd decision, but then again we few Band of Brothers are not necessarily the target market.
The box certainly does fit in with the ideal Xmas or birthday present for a kid, with everything oyu ned in a box, bar the paints of course. Mind you when I was young, we would have played with the figures as is and not worried about it at all. The smaller rulebook does look to be useful and I imagine they might release it seperately at some point in the future.
The game in a box is a good point, and I think I read that the figures are cast in blue and grey plastic so giving you two sides straight away.
I have seen Warlord stuff in museum gift shops so they are clearly thinking wider than established gamers.
The size of these figures is odd, they look close height wise with Kallistra, but very skinny compared with them. But some Kallistra figures are really big - I've not seen their ACW so don't know about those.
When the Wargames Illustrated comes out it would be wonderful if some kind would with an extensive ACW collection could provide some comparison shots.
As for scale, a gander for 15 minutes out the window should evidence the fact we're a fairly diverse species. Commercial reasons seems to be the most obvious reason but they may have decided that was as small as they could mass produce in plastic (injection or whatever they use) to get the detail they want. Hopefully there will be a few other manufacturers they fit with.
Quote from: Leon on 21 December 2020, 10:01:51 PM
But they're obviously a much bigger company than us so they must know what they're doing!
I work for a very large multinational company - The general consensus of opinion in our department is they haven't got a clue what they are doing.
The latest change in our departent is costing £28K month in extra overtime, and left 10 of us twiddling our thumbs looking for something to do most of the time. A colleague and I each had about 4 hours of actual work each in the last set of 7 x 12 hour nights!. The rest of the time we were reading training manuals and watching presentations. which tend to blur into one another at 2 am.
Quote from: Leon on 21 December 2020, 10:01:51 PM
Another odd decision which seems to be more for commercial reasons than benefiting the hobby, but I suppose newcomers into wargaming might see it as a handy starting point to jump in? I can't get my head around the scaling though, why choose something as random as 13.5mm?! I've seen the updated images where it looks like they'll match up with Kallistra but I'd imagine that's more coincidence than any planned result.
But they're obviously a much bigger company than us so they must know what they're doing!
I'm not convinced that necessarily follows.
In my experience when working for a design consultancy, the bigger the company, the less clue they had about anything. Most people seemed to care about getting promotions and career advancement rather than the project itself! To say they were risk averse would be an understatement...
A minimum of 2,400 figures for £90.00? That's roughly £0.75 for 20 figures. That is a very powerful incentive. And that ignores the Black Powder based rule book, scenery items, etc., which are also included.
Personally I wouldn't want 2,400 figures to paint or 100 figure units. I want more flexibility for basing, to form my own unit sizes and possibly figure pose. I wasn't very impressed with the artillery sculpts.
So if I was starting ACW afresh, I'm not convinced I would go for this. But if, say, Warlord starts to sell the pack contents individually in future (e.g., like individual sprues), I think that would be a more attractive option for the main stream wargamer with Kallistra also benefiting because of their close compatibility.
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 22 December 2020, 08:02:08 AM
It is to stop people using their existing figures
That might be true, it might not.
Having seen the comparison pics of a strip next to Kallistra's "12mm" ACW they match almost exactly - certainly no problems on the battlefield, and if anything the only difference is that the lead is a bit "chunkier" and the plastics have a bit more realistic proportions.
I suspect Warlord have realised sweeping games of 28mm with a thousand figures a side are WAY beyond most of the hobby, and that this is a very easy way to expand into a market they otherwise can't touch.
The cost to figure ratio is eyewateringly good - I'm not sure even Commission's very nice 6mm MDF are as cheap, and I suspect we might see tooling come up for other periods on this....
Good concept. Unfortunately it is about 40 years too late, and the wrong scale, to interest me. I suspect, thought, that it is aimed at the younger, newcomer, market, rather than gamers who've been at it for half a century or more.
For something that's a bit bigger than Pendraken's (and Cracker Line, which I have mixed with my Pendrakens) ACW line, the sculpts are no where near as good. I'll stick with my 10mms for ACW, thanks. They might be cheap, but the quality is really lacking. I've seen better 6mm sculpts than those.
Just had an email (twice) from Warlord, the figures do look rather nice. Problem with ACW is that it's one of the most boring periods to paint, at least for the USA,
Quote from: John Cook on 23 December 2020, 12:47:53 PM
Good concept. Unfortunately it is about 40 years too late, and the wrong scale, to interest me. I suspect, thought, that it is aimed at the younger, newcomer, market, rather than gamers who've been at it for half a century or more.
It's definitely aimed at a "one stop shop" approach to push something akin to GW, IMO - it's the "Warlord Hobby" as it were.
Sort of proprietary scale (doubt Kallistra figures on their radar?), in incredibly cheapness, might tempt other scale gamers in anyway but that's secondary, as it will pick up everyone who isn't invested elsewhere in scales and rules...
Nick, I thought the figures looked pretty decent - their proportions look a bit thin, 'cos they're injection moulds and just won't have the chunky heft of lead.
Ian - would like blue with your blue?
Just had a look at the Warlord Wednesday email, where they are now previewing a wagon and dismounted cavalry. It also appears that the buildings and the like can be bought separately, eg the Seminary and cemetery gates for Gettysburg about E28. I have seen a painted up comparison photo with Kallistra of the Union artillery. To be fair the sculpts are pretty crisp and appear to paint up well. They also looked noticeably bigger than Kallistra and I would hazard probably closer to Peter Pig's original ACW range.
Andy
Hmm, the side by side shots I'd seen (Nick Eyre of Northstar & from WI) looked *very* closely compatible with Kallistra.
Although I suspect Kallistra are on the big side of 12mm and Peter Pig's old ACW on the small side of 15mm, so maybe there's a fair overlap...
The Kallistra figures looked pretty close sizewise so they should be fine to mix in. The tricky bit is that the plastics are a much slimmer casting/sculpt style so they'll look smaller when lined up next to a chunkier metal figure.
My own ACW collection is 100% Peter Pig. The figures are actually 15mm from sole of foot to eye-level and so are larger than both Kallistra and the Warlord figures. The same topic is being discussed on the Peter Pig forum and side by side comparisons of the Kallistra and Warlord artillery crews appear to show Warlord to be marginally taller. Also, the Kallistra artillery sculpt appears to be more accurate and of far better quality. The Warlord mounted cavalry figure is also slightly taller. Overall, I think they are fairly compatible.
https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=3032.15 (https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=3032.15)
I mentioned previously that Warlord's offering is effectively less than £0.75 for 20 figures. But what you are actually getting for that amount of money are two plastic strips sculpted to depict 10 figures joined together. As this actually only requires 1 mould per strip and not 10 separate moulds per figure, it makes me wonder if the same method could be used for smaller scale figures.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 23 December 2020, 06:57:45 PM. ]
. But what you are actually getting for that amount of money are two plastic strips sculpted to depict 10 figures joined together. As this actually only requires 1 mould per strip and not 10 separate moulds per figure, it makes me wonder if the same method could be used for smaller scale figures.
Indeed GW did this years ago in 10mm for both Warmaster in metal and the Battle of Five armies in plastic. Now I think about it the BoFA box was very similar idea to this offering from Warlord, it contained loads of figures, some terrain and rules, all at a bargain price. The problem was the figures weren't that great, they were pretty small for 10mm, and lacked in detail.
But strips of 10mm figures is definitely a thing, and some of the newer Warmaster manufactures are making figures this way. Strips are good for getting a close ranked line, and a quicker to paint, as you are really only painting 2 sides of the figure, not 4. But they aren't so good for more irregular formations.
This is probably why the dismounted cavalry are cast in pairs, and there appear to be five different pairs, presumably to be based up with varying gaps and in different combinations.
The pairs probably work better for dismounted cavalry in a more skirmish style formation - but single figures would have been better. Often you can cut apart pairs of figures, I've done it with metal ones, but it really depends on the degree of overlap, if its just weapons cutting apart is easy enough, but if it is more, you end up with flat spots where the overlap was.
I've been looking at the cost of these, as there are all sorts of numbers bouncing around.
In the big box (£90, 2400 figures) a figures is just less than 4p each, or £1.13 for 30.
In the brigade box (£20, 300 figures and 3 guns) a figure is just under 7p, or £2 for 30
So the big box is very good value, the other boxes are around half the price of metals (Kallistra if bought in their deal are around 16p each) but you are getting much less variety of poses.
I don't like strips. Old Glory 10mm infantry come in strips and are not really compatible with any other 10mm range.
Agree. I am using some ACW Old Glory and had to cut them apart and do some filing and cutting. I have them mixed with my Pendraken and Cracker Line,
I tried to grind the base down so they wouldn't be too tall, but ended up softening them with the heat where they were squatting. And the Old Glory muskets are terrible.
Skirmishers and generals are not too bad and I have 2 bags of cavalry that I haven't done yet. But no more Old Glory.
I have OG Marlburian and SYW and Napoleonics in strips, they paint up fine and quick, I will be interested in the ACW box set from Warlord, the whole shebang in one go appeals to me. It's the usual though if you don't like it don't buy it, all down to personal choice. :)
I'm not daft on strips myself because you are forced into using a fixed base width (I've experienced these with 6mm Irregular Miniatures - like Old Glory, these also have thick bases and were tricky to cut). The Warlord offering is far too wide for my tastes. But if pitched at a fairly popular width (whatever that is), say, 30mm per strip (I guess you might get 5 Pendraken size figures on this?), it could be interesting to use this kind of thing to form the bulk of your close order infantry units, with the remainder augmented by metal sculpts (e.g., command, cavalry, skirmishers, artillery crew, etc.)
If a good quality plastic product in 10mm was released, what is the maximum gamers would be prepared to pay 'per foot figure'? No more than half the price of a metal sculpt? A third? A quarter?
p.s. In case it wasn't clear, when I said, "it makes me wonder if the same method could be used for smaller scale figures" I meant plastic figures.
After a long-ish think:
ACW offerings like this have great potential for a beginner.
ACW has 2 teams only with a fairly standard uniform for the bulk of the figures.
Not too many horses involved.
Popular historical setting for a large English speaking nation.
Simple painting will be good enough.
In fact another company run by a young American offered something quite similar some years ago.
I thought it was a great beginner offering with pre-coloured figures, choices of box size and ready to play rules.
Alas the company folded after a year or two - so clearly had not "cracked the market".
This opens the Pandoras box to the dark arts of marketing.
I've seen those perfume ads - don't try to convince me there's science involved.
Much as I'm a cynic, I understand the marketing chappies are looking for new markets, and like to identify a target demographic.
This is where I get lost in a fog - and explains why I will never be a competitor to Pendraken, Peter Pig, Baccus6mm etc.
At this point I try to guess the target demographic for this range.
* Non gamers - good luck, you are treading where young American chap failed - through I accept that Warlord have a lot more marketing OOmph.
I do question which non-gamers would visit the Warlord website, or wander into a wargame show and make their way to the warlord stand.
* Gamers who think "I always wanted to get into the ACW".
This shopper is already engaged with the hobby, and might be attracted by the attractive price offering.
On the other hand and engaged gamer has odd (annoying) requirements - who else makes troop in this scale? where are the Iron brigade? what about cavalry? How about some western theatre troops? dismounted cavalry?
* People who want to make dioramas of key points in specific battles (Do they have this sort of thing in glass cases at the battlefields?)
The odd scale, and fairly static poses may be a problem here.
On the other hand, if you want to depict a big muster before a battle, they might be ideal.
To summarise:
Yes there are non-gamers, but do they want to game, and if so would ACW be their first choice? I thought the cool kids were all about goblins and space marines - now with added pirates.
Yes there are gamers who might wish to branch out to ACW, but an odd scale in a box may reduce the attractiveness of this offering.
The rules on the other hand are a stroke of genius.
I'd imagine Black Powder (plus a bit of Glory Hallelujah) would fit into a slim A5 volume.
IF:
They dump all the "fluff and photos".
They re-write it in modern English, and stick to "Just the rules" rather than musing on the sort of 'gentleman' who doesn't field full teams with his caissons.
I love Black Powder as a toolkit, but find the writing style and lack of indexing infuriating.
I also cut my OG infantry apart and mounted them individually. I do like OG cavalry though. My OG are confined to Kingdom of Jerusalem and Ayyubids at Hattin and I also have a Hastings collection using Pendraken's Saxons and Normans. I find them significantly 'better fed' than OG, particularly the cavalry. I tend to keep my armies to one manufacturer as much as possible. On a positive note the concept of a boxed set, with terrain and rules, is a good one potentially, particularly for historical scenarios, like Hougoumont at Waterloo or Rorke's Drift for example.
of interest is also the fact hat Warlord do not doe a 28mm ACW line in plastic, while Perry do ..... so they can launch this without any impact on their 28's other than the signal it may send that other periods may follow, but as a single tester product in the market, it looks a safe trial for them and any sale is a sale that is new money.
My little wooden men are 96 figure units - 12 strips of 8. I know they are flat, and thus a bit easier, but the secret is to paint them as a strip, especially if you undercoat with the jacket colour.
So spray grey, and use a wider brush than you might think to do all the legs in one go by painting them as a stripe, etc. You'd be surprised how quick they get done
Quote from: John Cook on 24 December 2020, 02:25:52 AM
I don't like strips. Old Glory 10mm infantry come in strips and are not really compatible with any other 10mm range.
Well they have worked exceptionally well in my 10mm SYW Prussian army, both the strips of musketeers and the individual cavalry. My Prussian grenadiers and fusiliers are Pendraken and work well when based as if a four figure strip, one behind the other, ie 8 figures on a 25mm square base.
Well I was going to put a couple of my facebook photos in, but as usual some millenial thought it would be a great idea to revamp facebook and now I can't find anything other than complete bloody strangers wanting to be my friend. WTF is wrong with these people?
The IT dept has to justify it's existance don't you know.....
Quotecomplete bloody strangers wanting to be my friend. WTF is wrong with these people?
I agree, why would anyone want to be your friend? :d