I am currently preparing a small force of British Guards for 1793-95. Their Grenadiers were detached as a combined unit. Does anyone know if they would have carried a flag? Given that they were drawn from all three Guard regiments it would appear unlikely
Not certain on the regs but it would be unlikley as they would be comimg from different regiments.
Thanks Ian. That was my view.
I don't know the answer but this leaves me wondering if the Guards Detachment which served during the AWI/American Revolution (1775-83) carried colours. The men in these units were selected by a draft from all three Foot Guards regiments so it seems unlikely to me that the colours of one of the regiments would have been taken to America.
Especially as one of the many German officers, Major-General Baron Friedrich Wilhelm von Lossberg, wrote, "They [the British] have their colours with them only when quartered, while we carry them with us wherever the regiments go... the country is bad for fighting. Nothing worries me more than the colours, for the regiments cannot stay together in an attack because of the many walls, swamps, and stone cliffs. The English cannot lose their colours, for they do not carry them with them."
There are possibly other 'precedents' (e.g., the SYW?) but, for me, this adds weight for concluding that a composite Grenadiers battalion in 1793 would probably not have carried the colours of any particular regiment. However, given that this is a guess, I would be very interested if anyone else has any evidence to conclude otherwise.
Didn't some of the Guards battalions have one flag per company, or was that later in the Napoleonic wars?
Mark
If it any help. The Guards contingent consisted of one understrength battalion from each of the three Guard regiments.
The combined Grenadier battalion consisted of 4 companies; 2 from the 1st Guards and 1 each from the other two regiments.
Just had a look in a couple of books, and going back to 1740s the Guards regiments had 1 or 4 flags per company, up to 1803 it appears (depending on which book you glance at). As each flag seems to have a different central device, you'd have to know which companies were used from within each regiment to be fielding the exact flags.
There is the caveat though that each regiment only fielded two flags in battle, and the flags used were determined by a rotational system.
Such is the arcane lore of British guards units!
Given this information I would also conclude that any composite guards battalion would not have taken colours into the field. However feel free to apply wargamer's zeal and what-if and add a flag or 4 to your force, especially if the battalion is to be fielded in a UK-based scenario.
Sources:
Flags and Standards of the Napoleonic Wars, Keith Over, Bivouac Books (1976) ISBN 0-89402-033-1 (lists all the different company flag devices)
Osprey Elite 81, British Colours & Standards 1747-1881(2), Ian Sumner, Osprey Publishing (2001) ISBN 1-84176-201-6 (notes to plate A, pg.52)
Mark
Quote from: Westmarcher on 06 November 2020, 07:40:26 PM
I don't know the answer but this leaves me wondering if the Guards Detachment which served during the AWI/American Revolution (1775-83) carried colours. The men in these units were selected by a draft from all three Foot Guards regiments so it seems unlikely to me that the colours of one of the regiments would have been taken to America.
Especially as one of the many German officers, Major-General Baron Friedrich Wilhelm von Lossberg, wrote, "They [the British] have their colours with them only when quartered, while we carry them with us wherever the regiments go... the country is bad for fighting. Nothing worries me more than the colours, for the regiments cannot stay together in an attack because of the many walls, swamps, and stone cliffs. The English cannot lose their colours, for they do not carry them with them."
There are possibly other 'precedents' (e.g., the SYW?) but, for me, this adds weight for concluding that a composite Grenadiers battalion in 1793 would probably not have carried the colours of any particular regiment. However, given that this is a guess, I would be very interested if anyone else has any evidence to conclude otherwise.
Interesting quote, I applied "wargamer's zeal" all of my units carry one 'flag', the Regimental Colour for the British. My Guards Grenadiers carry a Union flag ;)
Thanks all. The company flag is a non-starter given there were only 4 companies present. On balance I think I will go without a flag.
Quote from: Chad on 07 November 2020, 09:19:03 AM
Thanks all. The company flag is a non-starter given there were only 4 companies present. On balance I think I will go without a flag.
.... plus it always gives you the option of adding a flag at a future date should new evidence support this.
Quote from: paulr on 07 November 2020, 12:23:11 AM
Interesting quote, I applied "wargamer's zeal" all of my units carry one 'flag', the Regimental Colour for the British. My Guards Grenadiers carry a Union flag ;)
I'll be adding some colours to my own AWI units also, Paul. It is an interesting quote yet I'm still not sure what he was trying to describe. For example, I recall something was mentioned in Mark Urban's "Fusiliers" about the 23rd concealing their colours at the Yorktown surrender(?). The 9th also managed to hide theirs at the Saratoga surrender. Some more colours were allegedly hidden in Burgoyne's personal baggage. With individual regiments definitely taking colours with them to America I'm wondering where they actually kept them - if von Lossberg is correct, do we presume these were kept at regimental HQ (or with the baggage?) and only brought out for set piece battles like Guilford Court House, etc. (when the whole battalion would be present) and not during the actual day to day 'klein krieg' of skirmishing and out post duties, etc.?
I would be tempted to add a single Union flag, just to make it pretty.