We know all new Pendraken figures are made by converting existing Pendraken figures to minimise costs. Unfortunately Pendraken figures aren't quite right. The heads are a bit big. Cavalry's horses' legs aren't right. The modelling is unfortunately not that great, again, in order to minimise costs when making the originals. Pendraken has bought up the TB line range though, which are simply better figures. So why not make new figures by converting some of the TB line figures, getting a balance between cost of modelling and quality of miniatures? Would that be possible? Or would it take so much more time to model even by converting to that standard that it'd raise costs a lot?
Really? I prefer the newer Pendraken sculpts to the TB line ones. Each to their own.
This isn't something that we've ever considered to be honest. The TB sculpts are a different style to our own so I think it would cause more problems than solutions? We'd be asking sculptors to move away from their own styles and try to copy someone else's instead, along with using someone else's figures as a base/dolly.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
We know all new Pendraken figures are made by converting existing Pendraken figures to minimise costs.
I'm not sure where we've ever said that? The majority of our new sculpts are made using dollies, but that's basically just a mannequin that the sculptors can build on. The recent Greeks or Feudal Japanese were all brand new sculpts: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18228.0.html and http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18880.0.html Conversions are used from time to time where we want to adjust an existing figure slightly. That applies a lot with the Napoleonic ranges, where 80% of a figure is exactly the same and the sculptor just needs to change things like headgear, epaulettes, cuffs, belts, packs, coattails, etc.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
Cavalry's horses' legs aren't right.
All of the cavalry are built on existing horse dollies, as nobody wants to be sculpting a new horse every time! I've never seen a problem with the horses though, we've occasionally adjusted a leg or tweaked a pose, but generally folks seem happy enough with our horses?
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
So why not make new figures by converting some of the TB line figures, getting a balance between cost of modelling and quality of miniatures? Would that be possible? Or would it take so much more time to model even by converting to that standard that it'd raise costs a lot?
It's certainly possible but I don't think it's as easy as it sounds. Each sculptor has their own dollies and way of doing things, so we'd be asking them to start using someone else's dollies and to switch the way they sculpt to try and mimic another sculptor's style?
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
"Unfortunately Pendraken figures aren't quite right. The heads are a bit big. Cavalry's horses' legs aren't right. The modelling is unfortunately not that great"
I'm not sure many people would agree with your characterisation.
Leon, this is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. To confirm what you said, I've only sculpted a single line for you from scratch - the Italian CTV in the SCW range - and they were indeed originals using dollies that you provided.
Quote from: John Cook on 20 September 2020, 11:24:32 PM
I'm not sure many people would agree with your characterisation.
Hmmm, I wonder if somebody really means those words. People actually on this website are probably united on only three points: that 10mm is the Gods' own scale, that Pendraken do a a flagship job on them, and that their dice don't roll nerly enough sixes.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 20 September 2020, 11:45:57 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if somebody really means those words. People actually on this website are probably united on only three points: that 10mm is the Gods' own scale, that Pendraken do a a flagship job on them, and that their dice don't roll nerly enough sixes.
To hell with dice! Otherwise, I agree entirely.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 20 September 2020, 11:15:11 PM
Really? I prefer the newer Pendraken sculpts to the TB line ones. Each to their own.
You're not the only one.
Agreed
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
Unfortunately Pendraken figures aren't quite right. The heads are a bit big. Cavalry's horses' legs aren't right. The modelling is unfortunately not that great, again, in order to minimise costs when making the originals.
I do not see any major issues with the Pendraken range. I agree some ranges are older than others and in general the new ranges are better figures. Also there is the odd pose that could be more animated .
As for saying the modelling is not that great?? I suggest you look at the other 10mm manufacturers ranges:-
Figures from one range where many of the ankles are so thin they break off while painting them
One manufacturers Early Imperial Roman range where the archers are literally head and shoulders above the rest.
Single pose packs for most of their ranges.
Significantly more expensive
TB line are lovely figures, but they are slightly larger figures, but if that's what you prefer then stick with the TB range
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
We know all new Pendraken figures are made by converting existing Pendraken figures ...
For example, the Prussian SYW standard bearer and Prussian SYW Grenadier Officer?
Quote from: Dunnadd on 20 September 2020, 10:57:34 PM
Unfortunately Pendraken figures aren't quite right. The heads are a bit big. Cavalry's horses' legs aren't right. The modelling is unfortunately not that great, again, in order to minimise costs when making the originals.
Don't take the reaction in the above posts too personally. Good honest opinion and ideas is and must surely be welcome on the forum. However, perhaps being more specific regarding the Pendraken ranges you were looking at would help us to see what's on your mind? It is a rare thing to find any figure 'quite right' in the whole figure market regardless of scale (e.g., Baccus 6mm horses are way too small with the riders looking as if they are sitting on dogs, 18mm AB Figures Napoleonic infantry and Eureka SYW infantry bayonets are way too long being as long as the figure's legs, etc.). That is nature of wargaming figures - features are exaggerated and not in perfect proportion and subject to different sculptors' styles. I'm currently painting Pendraken AWI and 'yes' some of the heads and hats are slightly large but they are good sculpts nevertheless imo. I'm not a fan of those Pendraken standing horses with 4 straight legs - you see that a lot throughout some ranges (no doubt same sculptor, Leon?) - even one bent leg would have been good. I love the charging pose in the SYW range - dynamic and robust - I would be happy if the cavalry had no standing horses at all but, heh ho. But we all have poses we dislike (years ago I started a topic on the very same subject). Still, I'd be interested to know what figures you had been looking at because generally in the ranges I've been making my purchases, I find the level of detail to be very good.
As an artist I can tell you the worst order you can get is to do some art in someone else's style.
I've occasionally had painting orders to do figures "like someone else's" and it's the worst type of commission.
So I can assure you asking a sculptor to sculpt figures in the style of someone else is gonna end badly!
Quote from: sultanbev on 21 September 2020, 12:59:37 PM
As an artist I can tell you the worst order you can get is to do some art in someone else's style.
I've occasionally had painting orders to do figures "like someone else's" and it's the worst type of commission.
So I can assure you asking a sculptor to sculpt figures in the style of someone else is gonna end badly!
Tom Keating and Wolfgang Beltracchi did all right painting in someone else's style (apart from the prison time I suppose!)
But I have no problems with Pendraken figures as they are thanks.
Quote from: Gwydion on 21 September 2020, 07:34:55 PM
Tom Keating and Wolfgang Beltracchi did all right painting in someone else's style (apart from the prison time I suppose!)
But I have no problems with Pendraken figures as they are thanks.
+1 to Gwydion (and welcome to the Forum- I like your sense of humour). ;D For Forum newbys +1 is our equivalent of social media "like".
Quote from: Westmarcher on 21 September 2020, 09:32:42 AM
For example, the Prussian SYW standard bearer and Prussian SYW Grenadier Officer?
Don't take the reaction in the above posts too personally. Good honest opinion and ideas is and must surely be welcome on the forum. However, perhaps being more specific regarding the Pendraken ranges you were looking at would help us to see what's on your mind? It is a rare thing to find any figure 'quite right' in the whole figure market regardless of scale (e.g., Baccus 6mm horses are way too small with the riders looking as if they are sitting on dogs, 18mm AB Figures Napoleonic infantry and Eureka SYW infantry bayonets are way too long being as long as the figure's legs, etc.). That is nature of wargaming figures - features are exaggerated and not in perfect proportion and subject to different sculptors' styles. I'm currently painting Pendraken AWI and 'yes' some of the heads and hats are slightly large but they are good sculpts nevertheless imo. I'm not a fan of those Pendraken standing horses with 4 straight legs - you see that a lot throughout some ranges (no doubt same sculptor, Leon?) - even one bent leg would have been good. I love the charging pose in the SYW range - dynamic and robust - I would be happy if the cavalry had no standing horses at all but, heh ho. But we all have poses we dislike (years ago I started a topic on the very same subject). Still, I'd be interested to know what figures you had been looking at because generally in the ranges I've been making my purchases, I find the level of detail to be very good.
The only ones i've bought have been dark age, medieval and fantasy (and ironically for someone criticising them, i've bought a tonne of them) , but tbh they all look pretty much the same - all have the same faults - arms and faces that just don't look believable and don't look like any effort went into sculpting them, hands that are just a blob with three or four lines pressed into it, horses whose legs don't look remotely like any real horse's legs, either in shape or in the way they bend (not sure why you think the running ones are any better than the standing ones in that respect), arms and legs that are too thick if they've any clothing on them etc. To be fair some look ok painted in a unit if you don't look at them too closely (though i'm often guessing when painting, and having to interpret what is meant to be what, as the detail isn't great, and they never look great).
The fantasy are probably the most rushed out and "that'll do"(as if fantasy figures don't have to look good) of the lot, but there isn't a single pendraken figure that comes close to making me think "that's a really nice figure". And most new figures just look like conversions of the existing ones. The medievals and dark age are pretty poor, but when i see previews of figures of other periods, no noticeable difference there either. The diversity of figures is amazing- it's a pity the figures are disappointing - and i've long since given up expecting any improvement in new releases.
When i get Pendraken i'm generally thinking "well they're cheap and there's not much variety available in 10mm fantasy or medieval figures for that troop type" rather than "these are really nice figures, i want some of those".
I will certainly buy some of the TB line from Pendraken ( i bought some from TB line before they went out of business) - and it's pretty clear Pendraken's business model of churning out a wide range of not very good figures beat the TB Line's of spending a long time making really great sculpts, but I can't pretend Pendraken's own line of figures have ever inspired me much.
Just take a look at the Pendraken medieval European figures and the TB Line ones (I did screenshot photos of two similar types to post, but then remembered i'd have to upload them to some other website, then html them in)
Quote from: Orcs on 21 September 2020, 04:31:43 AM
I do not see any major issues with the Pendraken range. I agree some ranges are older than others and in general the new ranges are better figures. Also there is the odd pose that could be more animated .
As for saying the modelling is not that great?? I suggest you look at the other 10mm manufacturers ranges:-
Figures from one range where many of the ankles are so thin they break off while painting them
One manufacturers Early Imperial Roman range where the archers are literally head and shoulders above the rest.
Single pose packs for most of their ranges.
Significantly more expensive
TB line are lovely figures, but they are slightly larger figures, but if that's what you prefer then stick with the TB range
There are certainly worse 10mm figures (Warrior miniatures have no detail at all, and Magister Militum aren't great either), and you likely have a point on TB Line being a bit bigger than Pendraken's main line but I'd certainly prefer 12mm scale modelled a bit better. Every figure scale has had scale creep to some extent - and GW's warmaster fantasy range bizarrely had some armies modelled in true 10mm, and others a bit better modelled in 12mm.
I have never been able to believe that anyone would buy those figures from Warrior.
Some of the older dark age/medieval stuff is certainly not as nice as more recent bits. I have a few from the Early Medieval, Norman, and Arab ranges in my Crusades armies and they're definitely not as detailed and dynamic as other ranges, as well as being a bit smaller and more dainty looking proportions. But that's been the exception in my experience with Pendraken models, especially when looking at newer ranges.
The TB Line models are very nice, and I believe Leon put a lot of work cleaning them up and I'm looking forward to the Islamics coming out. There is a couple of mm size differences in them though as mentioned before.
The Pendraken Late Medieval range looks a lot nicer than the earlier ones, I'm guessing it has some more recent sculpts in it, and they do come out quite nicely. They stand up well against other 10mm medieval manufacturers in my experience.
There are many other ranges that I've had figures from that are very detailed and well done, better than anything else I've seen at 10mm (or even some 15mm). The LoA range springs to mind, as well as the Aztecs, though there's plenty more.
I'm surprised at your assessment of the figures as I'd always seen Pendraken as taking the time to get the quality right. I recall a few cases where figures have gone back to the scuptor because something wasn't quite right when they were previewed, as well as ensuring to have the same sculpter cover similar ranges for compatibility where possible.
Are there any "true 10mm" figures that you've been particularly impressed with as opposed to the ones creeping up towards 12mm?
Having an extra couple of mm to work with does probably allow the sculpter to put in a fair bit more detail, but then there's the compatibility issues with other 10mm figures and some of the ranges have done a superb job at getting details into such a small space.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 22 September 2020, 12:09:59 AM
The only ones i've bought have been dark age, medieval and fantasy ....
Thanks for taking the trouble to respond - that's more helpful and makes more sense to me (initially I thought you were comparing the two ranges of one manufacturer with well over twelve ranges from another). As my own area of interest doesn't really go further back than the 16th century, I confess I'm not as qualified as other forum members to comment on the earlier period ranges. The TB figures look good and better than some of the Pendraken ones, imo (e.g., the Dark Ages Norman cavalry horse do look quite odd, in my view). To be fair some of the TB ones are not without their flaws either, imo - some of the spears and lances are a bit thick (and some hands are blobs with lines on them also) but I can see why Pendraken acquired the TB Line ranges. There are art critics today who find fault with Michelangelo's David and that is some 17 feet high but we are talking about 1cm high figures (and sculpted by guys who will probably admit to not having Michelangelo's level of skill). So, whilst I agree that as customers we should be allowed to express our opinions on the quality of the product on this forum and to make suggestions on how it might be improved, perhaps we shouldn't be too harsh bearing in mind that the product will rarely be seen closer than a metre's distance. It would be interesting to hear your views on the quality of, for example, the SYW, AWI and League of Augsburg ranges. As mentioned, as well as continually seeking to introduce new ranges, Leon also has an ongoing 'programme' of re-visiting some older ranges to re-vamp them so I'm sure your feedback will continue to be welcome.
I do not really understand the problem here. As this is something that is just a matter of taste.
The early medieval and dark age models for example, are perfect (in my opinion) for pimping out a board game. Where you need a lot of information available easily and at glance, so that you don't need to Ben Dover whenever you are planning a move.
Sometimes more detail is less in a sense.
Also some gentleman here made saxons with the dark ages line, and these look splendid?!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P9hhZ9e9iFY/U58XO89JmkI/AAAAAAAACdc/c9ZWZvEIKco/s1600/DSCN7598.JPG)
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=435596
I'm not quite sure how to respond to some of this, I suppose the obvious question would be which 10mm figures do you like from other manufacturers? Or is there a particular sculptor whose work you like? I'd consider our sculptors to be some of the best working in this scale and I've always thought that our figures compare very well with any other manufacturer out there.
The AWI, the League of Augsburg, the Aztecs, Greeks, etc are all fantastic little figures and I don't think anyone else has put out better ranges in 10mm? The Van Dyck ranges are a level above ours but the time spent sculpting those wouldn't be viable for a business to run and they're a couple of mm taller than other 10mm's.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 22 September 2020, 12:09:59 AM
The fantasy are probably the most rushed out and "that'll do"(as if fantasy figures don't have to look good) of the lot, but there isn't a single pendraken figure that comes close to making me think "that's a really nice figure". And most new figures just look like conversions of the existing ones. The medievals and dark age are pretty poor, but when i see previews of figures of other periods, no noticeable difference there either. The diversity of figures is amazing- it's a pity the figures are disappointing - and i've long since given up expecting any improvement in new releases.
This seems odd as the Fantasy have got some of the most detail of all our ranges? The extra work that Techno put into them was fantastic, down to runes carved into Dwarven axes and there's even some graffiti on the Wood Elf tree stump I think. The Medievals and Dark Ages ranges are much older now and will probably get the revamp treatment at some point, as I'm not completely happy with them myself, especially the Norse.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 22 September 2020, 12:09:59 AM
... and it's pretty clear Pendraken's business model of churning out a wide range of not very good figures beat the TB Line's of spending a long time making really great sculpts, but I can't pretend Pendraken's own line of figures have ever inspired me much.
Again, we've never said that anywhere and that's clearly not our business model. We've spent years fine-tuning the sculpting team to get the best people we can and we've spent £1000's replacing ranges that we felt weren't up to standard. If the model was just to churn them out regardless of quality then we'd never have bothered replacing those figures for a limited return on the investment.
Leon, at this point I think you're wasting time responding to someone who's frankly speaking bollocks.
Quote from: Nick the Lemming on 22 September 2020, 05:19:55 PM
Leon, at this point I think you're wasting time responding to someone who's frankly speaking bollocks.
But then customer goodwill is the most important asset of a business and the most valuable customer is the one who voices their complaints because then you know what is wrong. I made a comment on the 6mm Yahoo group about the H&R WWII infantry, which I thought were old and tired, having been first cast in the 1970s; it seemed to have a galvanising effect. No doubt Leon will take a view. Personally I am here for the Korean range because everyone I spoke to said that Pendraken was THE range to buy; so far I have no complaints and can confirm the quality and may diversify into other periods. Presumably if there are better products people will adjust their purchasing accordingly and sales figures will show the result.
Nick
My sentiments exactly. Leon, Nil Bastardum Carburundum.
I think he's entitled to his opinion but it would not seem to be one shared by others here. I suspect Leon's sales are secure in the meantime.
I want some TBLine Islamics to round out my Haradrim Army, they are large enough to fit with other fantasy stuff I have. I wouldn't use them with my historical stuff because either they'd be seven foot tall or my current troops would be five foot tall.
Quote from: Chad on 22 September 2020, 05:45:44 PM
Nick
My sentiments exactly. Leon, Nil Bastardum Carburundum.
To quote. The Toasters' album "Illegitimis non carborundum"!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 22 September 2020, 06:37:46 PM
I think he's entitled to his opinion but it would not seem to be one shared by others here. I suspect Leon's sales are secure in the meantime.
I want some TBLine Islamics to round out my Haradrim Army, they are large enough to fit with other fantasy stuff I have. I wouldn't use them with my historical stuff because either they'd be seven foot tall or my current troops would be five foot tall.
I've bought a lot of Pendraken figures myself and I'm certainly not trying to get people not to buy Pendraken. I was just hoping to get figures with a bit more clearly defined detail and hat look a bit more impressive, though, as some posters have pointed out, that'd probably require a bit of scale creep to 12mm scale rather than pure 10mm, like with the TB Line figures
Quote from: FierceKitty on 22 September 2020, 02:42:36 AM
I have never been able to believe that anyone would buy those figures from Warrior.
I bought some vikings once many years ago to see what they were like, as some of thier stuff is ok. i still have them. they are lead weights in the hulls of my 20mm plastic tanks. :)
We always appreciate feedback, never any worries on that front. I'm just not sure what the solution is here though, as moving to TB's size/style for future releases alienates everyone who buys our usual sculpts, so it's not really a viable move to look at. We might look at converting some of the TB stuff into other Ancients/Middle Ages ranges though, that's an easier conversation to have with the sculptors.
Leon, I suspect the solution is to continue to produce high quality true 10mm figures :)
As you have indicated some of the older ranges will be reviewed in due course :-bd
Those in the market who want high quality true 10mm figures and exceptional service will continue to keep you and the team busy :!!
Those who want high quality 12mm+ figures may have to look elsewhere :-\
PS Dunnadd, thanks for taking the time to comment and provide some more detail on particular ranges
Perhaps the solution is to sell and promote the TB Line range as a different scale, if that is what they are. There is no useful comparison of different scales except to note the obvious as has been done in this thread: that larger scales can and should incorporate more detail. And, yes, there's every reason that smaller scales should appear chunkier.
12mm has its attractions and is gaining some interest, even in plastic. But we all know that as attractive as it might be to allow 10mm to morph into 12mm, 12mm might just as easily scale-creep to 15mm.
It might be better to remember why 10mm is such a good scale. And TB Line is just another, different good thing.
The thing there is that I don't think the TB's are 12mm. I've stood them next to ours and the difference is minimal, it's one of the reasons we bought the ranges up. If they'd been incompatible with ours then we wouldn't have bothered.
On the 12mm plastics, I've not seen those next to our figures yet but the WWII vehicles being produced are 10mm / 150th scale and match up with ours fine. There's been a few pics posted on Facebook so far where they look almost exactly the same size.
Quote from: Nick the Lemming on 22 September 2020, 05:19:55 PM
Leon, at this point I think you're wasting time responding to someone who's frankly speaking bollocks.
Wot he said...
The PSC 10mm Modern stuff is compatable with the Falklands range,,,,,so your Chefey is needed NOW Leon ;)
Quote from: Leon on 23 September 2020, 01:57:19 PM
The thing there is that I don't think the TB's are 12mm. I've stood them next to ours and the difference is minimal, it's one of the reasons we bought the ranges up. If they'd been incompatible with ours then we wouldn't have bothered.
I don't think TB are necessarily 12mm, they are a bit bigger and chunkier than the standard ranges in some of their proportions, but it's only really noticible with the cavalry. With the infantry it's pretty minimal and I've happily mixed TB infantry with Pendraken and other manufacturers on the same base without issue:
e.g.
(https://i.imgur.com/C1KtFcc.jpg)
As mentioned before, some things are a bit chunkier with TB, especially the spear shafts.
I don't mix the TB and Pendraken cavalry as the size difference of the horses is just a bit too much, unless you were mixing say a heavy knight on a large charger on a base with retainers or light troops riding smaller horses. Though actually most of my medieval cavalry is from MM, which sits somewhere between the two in size and chunkiness. Looks really well on separate bases though and not so far off in size that it looks wrong on the table the way full 12mm would.
Some cavalry pics I took for Paul when he was planning his 100YW project:
(https://i.imgur.com/wbmtFyL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cmp6P5L.jpg)
If I hadn't it all packed away I'd compare TB against the fantasy range, which is 12mm I believe?
I've got loads of the TB Islamics, and a few of the Teutonic medievals. I also have loads of Pendraken, plenty of Magister Militum, loads of GW Warmaster, and plenty of other 10mm figures, from all sorts of eras and ranges. One of the key things I have found is few manufacturers are fully in scale / size across all of their ranges. This isn't too surprising with the breadth of ranges and the age of ranges, and different sculptors. With 10mm a mm here or there is quite obvious - but then in 28mm this happens even more.
I found most of the infantry is pretty compatible between different 10mm ranges. The key standouts our Pendraken Fantasy and all Kallistra, which are 12mm. But there are differences in bulk - MM tend to be more bulky.
But on cavalry there are much bigger differences TB Line are big, some GW are big (eg Empire). MM tend to be small, but there are quite a bit of variance within ranges for all manufacturers on horse size. Some of the PD Elizabethan horses are small.
Ultimately when on the table these differences tend not to be noticeable.
Regarding TB line, they are very detailed very finely sculpted figures, but they are really hard work to paint, because of this. I've painted quite a lot of the ones I have, but far from all, and that is over many years.
Some of the new manufacturers are producing some very detailed 10mm fantasy figures now, but often they are big, because they are fantasy and are creatures they can be big, so there is more space for details.
I've recently bought lots of PD Sengoku Japanese, and these are great figures, they look good as individual figures, have a nice amount of detail, but still paint up quickly to give units.
Quote from: Sunray on 21 September 2020, 09:56:04 PM
+1 to Gwydion (and welcome to the Forum- I like your sense of humour). ;D For Forum newbys +1 is our equivalent of social media "like".
Thanks Sunray.
I'm masquerading as a newby - joined 2013, I'm just a very slow poster - 1 a year currently. Two in quick succession means I should be back c2022 all being well.
'Social media?' Is that like a fax?
6.028 a day... ;D
That all Will ?
Quote from: Gwydion on 24 September 2020, 02:06:43 PM
Thanks Sunray.
I'm masquerading as a newby - joined 2013, I'm just a very slow poster - 1 a year currently. Two in quick succession means I should be back c2022 all being well.
'Social media?' Is that like a fax?
;D +1
Quote from: Gwydion on 24 September 2020, 02:06:43 PM
Thanks Sunray.
I'm masquerading as a newby - joined 2013, I'm just a very slow poster - 1 a year currently. Two in quick succession means I should be back c2022 all being well.
'Social media?' Is that like a fax?
I thought I was fairly infrequent, but that is very slow.
Hello
I would have thought the TB Line figures would have made a good basis for conversion to the Fantasy lines since they are closer in size to the larger Fantasy figures?
Just a thought
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
From speaking to Techno (peace be upon him), using actual figures as a basis for conversion can be problematic. The mold making process compresses the figure slightly making the production figure fractionally smaller. This is not a problem as the sculpters allow for this.
It does mean that if you use that figure to convert it will be compressed again, making it again a fraction smaller. This can result in fragile points on the model - ie ankles wrists etc.
When Techno converted a few of the Fallshirmjager for me he had to thicken the ankles on some to get around this. Thus adding to the time and expense of making the master.
Interesting, there is an awful lot that goes into sculpting the figures
Interesting thread. From my own point of view I really don't like working on someone else's figures for conversion. That's why I've always done my own horses for example. I kinda want to have the figure be all my own work, whether it turns out bad or good, I need to own it either way. For the same reason I'd be super annoyed if I saw my figures being converted by someone else. I couldn't stop it from happening, but it would be a problem.
I think I initially used the Pendraken doll set as doing a figure from scratch was beyond my capabilites when I started, but once I got better I made my own sets of dolls. That's not knocking the Pendraken dolls- without them I wouldn't have gotten any further.
The difference between a 12mm and a 10mm is, well 2mm or an extra 20 percent, but its an immense difference in space to work in. Sculptors are always looking for a bit ore space for fitting things in, which is where scale creep comes in. You have to work very hard to keep it at bay. The reason the AWI have large noggins for instance is because that's the smallest I could sculpt a recognisable head then. My Late Roman horses are huge chunky things compared to the later LoA horse. Differences in heft are much more noticable than height, which is why its often more apparent in the horses than the men.
Recently I've started working digitally and have been experimenting with scales (because that's easy to alter digitally), and I've printed 28mm figs at 10mm . It is stiking (even if entirely predictable) just how spindlely a 28mm fig looks at 10mm. Its a little gem, but completely impractical as a figure. When the necessary exaggerations are made and seen on screen they make the fig look like some sort of Frankenstien's Monster.
The lesson is each scale has its own design considerations.
Also the question of sculpting in someone else's style; I wouldn't be averse to that if I admired the style (and was capable of working to it, which isn't a given), but if I thought it wasn't good I doubt I'd do it. To work on figures "consistent" with others is really what you'd be aiming at. Its actually not something I've ever been asked to do.
TB are some of the nicest 10mm figs available, but I am sure the other Pendraken sculptors are doing their best work, and that Pendraken are not doing things on the cheap. There have been bad figures from the early days- I've openly said that I ditched the first figures I got from Pendraken (long deceased Marlburian figures) because they were too rough looking (hence why they are withdrawn). It was seeing the SYW range on Deep Fried Happy Mice, around 2001/2 that made me stop and go "wow- 10mm figures can be amazing", and I think Pendraken have built on that.
QuoteRecently I've started working digitally and have been experimenting with scales (because that's easy to alter digitally), and I've printed 28mm figs at 10mm . It is stiking (even if entirely predictable) just how spindlely a 28mm fig looks at 10mm. Its a little gem, but completely impractical as a figure. When the necessary exaggerations are made and seen on screen they make the fig look like some sort of Frankenstien's Monster.
A friend did this a few years ago at work, printing the same figure at different scales. As you say, they looked fine on screen, but as you got smaller they just looked wrong, even they they were completely accurate. So aside from casting issues, you have to make things look right first and foremost. Michael Angelo's 'David' is a classic example. We all assume it is perfectly sculpted (which it is), but in fact it was made to be viewed when on a building, so the proportions are all wrong when seen as it is currently displayed, yet we don't notice.
I should be glad to get one thing in my life that wrong! ;D
Oh, dear.... X_X
I've just seen this particular thread.
Gimme frigging strength. =)
So have I. A little taken aback.
I still stand by my original comments on page 2.
Just wandered in also. Have rarely ever seen a company that listens to customers as carefully as the Pendraken crew and is so deeply committed to continual improvement. I also got to watch Techno turn out a dozen brilliant sculpts (using Pendraken dollies) to meet my exact needs and taste and then Leon cast them up for me. The sculpting cost was a fraction of my annual hobby budget and way less than I drop in one day at a convention.
Others could likely do the same and help with the expansion and improvement of the multitude of ranges. Yes, some of the early ranges could stand improvement and maybe a few more horse poses could be done (I hate horses, however, so nothing will make me happy unless someone else paints them - like Pixie :) ). Pig face helmets anyone?
Basically Pendraken IS 10mm imho.
Hear! Hear!
Quote from: Nick the Lemming on 26 November 2020, 09:27:55 PM
I still stand by my original comments on page 2.
Quite so. Nothing more to be said, which is why I didn't join the thread in September.
Quote from: John Cook on 27 November 2020, 07:53:20 AM
Quite so. Nothing more to be said, which is why I didn't join the thread in September.
Ditto..
Quote from: Techno II on 26 November 2020, 04:12:22 PM
Oh, dear.... X_X
I've just seen this particular thread.
Gimme frigging strength. =)
Well we do want QUALITY figures Phil inculding duck knights and wombles with AK's :D :D :D :O)
Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 November 2020, 01:29:26 PM
Well we do want QUALITY figures Phil inculding duck knights and wombles with AK's :D :D :D :O)
Well there is a Jonstown Compendium scenario just waiting for the ducks.....
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pegasusdigital.de%2Fimages%2F2%2F296285.png&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ecnY6AZnhi0/XpDXGnJWJoI/AAAAAAAAHRM/_KZhgWD2AsQkLDeeIwtotr_8hdx9o8QJACPcBGAYYCw/s1600/Eyra-and-Radnak-characters-in-Yozarians-Bandit-Ducks-RuneQuest-scenario.jpg)
I love Runequest!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dy_9AQBU0AAKvkQ.jpg)
Give me strength!