The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.
Quote from: fsn on 06 June 2020, 10:33:30 PM
The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.
Why? They can get shot! ;D
Actually...hmm, maybe should not comment. in case it opens a Bucket of worms, BUT. Hopefully, this ain't TMP! I, personally am absolutely horrified at the growing trend to 'change history' to conform to a particular point of view. In my youth, George Orwell's society could never happen...but it IS...not so much by 'Big Brother', but by mob 'values'! :o :-X
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 07 June 2020, 03:04:43 AM
Why? They can get shot! ;D
Actually...hmm, maybe should not comment. in case it opens a Bucket of worms, BUT. Hopefully, this ain't TMP! I, personally am absolutely horrified at the growing trend to 'change history' to conform to a particular point of view. In my youth, George Orwell's society could never happen...but it IS...not so much by 'Big Brother', but by mob 'values'! :o :-X
Just call them men in trench coats and brimmed hats.
Quote from: fsn on 06 June 2020, 10:33:30 PM
The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.
Nobby You could argue that all "baddies" are to some extent tasteless. That does not stop popular culture sending them up - the Indiana Jones movies, the Dark Lord in Lord of the Rings, present day Islamic terrorists could be "tasteless" subject matter to their victim's families. Perhaps that's why I couched the request as caricature based on Herr Flick?
The Gestapo were the a monolithic umbrella for German military intelligence. It absorbed ALL the old Weimar Republic agencies. The intelligence investigation community was never purged. Historians like Gellatley argue that the majority of these police were not Nazis. Their professionalism was valued above their politics.
We forget that the Nazis Party came to power, not by a military coup or putsch. They were elected via the ballot box to a 43% vote, which with a coalition with the DNVP allowed Hitler to pass democratically, The Enabling Act. Policemen serve the Government, and the Nazis reorganised then into the Gestapo.
But lets be brutally honest. No German military organisation is WW2 is free from the charge of committing atrocity or genocide. The rendition of a clean Wehrmacht is a myth. Does that not prompt the question that any portrayal of WW2 German forces is tasteless?
In my early tours of West Germany, there were a few old and bold officers in the BND who had a linage that stretched back to service in the Gehlen Org and the Gestapo.
Quote from: Sunray on 07 June 2020, 09:41:08 AM
Nobby You could argue that all "baddies" are to some extent tasteless.
But lets be brutally honest. No German military organisation is WW2 is free from the charge of committing atrocity or genocide.
Me coming from an "Axis" aligned country that managed to get out of the war with relative ease and with some luck involved.
I would consider russians "baddies" and find them tasteless.
Also no military organisation in ww2 is free of committing war crimes. Of course not to the extent of the extermination war conducted on the eastern front.
Quote from: Noktu on 08 June 2020, 08:34:19 AM
Me coming from an "Axis" aligned country that managed to get out of the war with relative ease and with some luck involved.
I would consider russians "baddies" and find them tasteless.
Also no military organisation in ww2 is free of committing war crimes. Of course not to the extent of the extermination war conducted on the eastern front.
It is possible to argue in Finland's case that "your enemy's enemy became your friend" . I like your phrase "relative ease and some luck" which covers complicated history of the
Lapin Sota, the humiliating years of
suomettuminen and the corollaries of the Paasikiwi policies.
Finland was between a rock and a hard place. As a nation she had to made tough choices - and survived. No western nation was going to stand up the Soviet Union on Finland's behalf.
One of the positives of our hobby is that the majority of us know enough history to understand that the 'goodies v baddies' view of any conflict is ... somewhat simplistic :-\
Thanks Sunray for helping me learn a little more history :)
Quote from: Sunray on 08 June 2020, 09:43:08 AM
It is possible to argue in Finland's case that "your enemy's enemy became your friend" . I like your phrase "relative ease and some luck" which covers complicated history of the Lapin Sota, the humiliating years of suomettuminen and the corollaries of the Paasikiwi policies.
Finland was between a rock and a hard place. As a nation she had to made tough choices - and survived. No western nation was going to stand up the Soviet Union on Finland's behalf.
I do believe however that the Continuation War coordinated with the German invasion of Russia was a calculated revenge war on our behalf in order to form a Greater Finland. Compelled by the early german victories I guess it seemed like a no brainer for us to join the offensive.
There is some deep rooted gratitude here for the germans as without them feeding and arming us, the soviet union would have probably swallowed us whole.
In the far north where the Lapland War took place you will find people with differing opinions as the germans destroyed the infrastructure in order to halt a possible russian advance through the north.
A very interesting subject that would probably be better off discussed elsewhere.
I'm sorry for this, and maybe put my point badly.
In these sensitive times the word "Gestapo" is particularly toxic within the wider public. I suspect a range of Kempeitai would go unnoticed by the Great British public. whereas Gestapo figures may be viewed a little less charitably.
It is, as the say "the optics".
P.S. Finland forever!
Quote from: fsn on 08 June 2020, 10:46:44 AM
I'm sorry for this, and maybe put my point badly.
In these sensitive times the word "Gestapo" is particularly toxic within the wider public. I suspect a range of Kempeitai would go unnoticed by the Great British public. whereas Gestapo figures may be viewed a little less charitably.
It is, as the say "the optics".
P.S. Finland forever!
Well argued Nobby ! I totally get it. Even if Leon wanted to style the sculpts
Indian Jones adventure figures- a bit like Mark Copplestone does in 28mm?
Now we have a consensus on what not to call them, we still have to sell the request to the Dark Lord!
Lets go with New York gangsters sporting Maschinenpistole 40s!
Quote from: Noktu on 08 June 2020, 01:41:46 PM
Lets go with New York gangsters sporting Maschinenpistole 40s!
That was my argument 3 years ago. Not enough votes. So I reinvented my long coat and broad brimmed fedora as Gestapo to piggyback on WW2 demand.
In desperation I converted a Minifigs civilian and armed him with a pistol - I call the character Harry Palmer - budget secret agent
Re-enactment groups are very sensitive about this - it does invite the question "Why are you being Nazis and not Us?"
Quote from: paulr on 08 June 2020, 09:54:18 AM
One of the positives of our hobby is that the majority of us know enough history to understand that the 'goodies v baddies' view of any conflict is ... somewhat simplistic :-
Thanks Sunray for helping me learn a little more history :)
Its a fair trade Paul, for the nuggets I pick up in terms of painting tips and sourcing 10mm kit. Its what makes the forum alive. :)
I can remember a few years ago Salute featured a large WWII reenactment group that took up a large portion of the middle of the hall. Unfortunately a portion chose to wear uniforms of the SS, the Gestapo and some had their children in uniforms of the Hitler Youth. Whilst I will never knowingly deny history, there are some things that should never be glorified.
I understand that the management of Salute did the honorable thing.
On the other hand. Is it hypocritical for me to laugh when the actor Richard Gibson picks up the telephone and barks, "Flick, The Gestapo" and after a shocked pause replies"No. I said Flick, The Gestapo.
You said it yourself "unfortunately a portion chose to wear uniforms of the SS, the Gestapo ...". The public is generally not well versed in its history and hyper-sensitive. Imagine Leon turning up with his new range of Gestapo figures. Somebody is bound to take offence - "how dare you make the Gestapo into a game! You Nazi lover!" Local press, national press, Twitter mob, Middle Borough in flames. No more Centurions for Nobby. :(
I'll be honest, I don't think I'd buy Gestapo figures, but I would buy Milice figures and in some ways they are just as bad ... if not worse. However, they are safe in the eyes of the public because nobody knows who they were or what they did.
In a lighter vein, have you have you watched "Jojo Rabbit"? Very much in the spirit of "Allo Allo".
Be warned: many uses of the phrase "Heil Hitler" for comedic effect.
Strangely we had a very angry person on Facebook when we launched the V1 launch ramp last year. His claim was that we were 'glorifying Nazism' or something along those lines. Aside from the obvious ridiculousness, I thought it odd that he took such issue with a launch ramp, something that just didn't seem to be an item that would ever cause such offence!
Ah! That's the sort of thing I was thinking of.
I would argue there is a clear dichotomy between "glorifying" an evil from the past out of context, and using detailed knowledge of the past to educate.
The Herrenvolk , young, blond vibrant and laughing like Nordic gods should be placed with the context of the Final Solution - mingle them with a few re-enactors portraying crying children in pyjama type clothing and bearing camp tattoos and stars of David. Oh and don't forget the Gay community and Gypsies. Remind a new generation of the evil of Nazism.
On the wargames table we need to preserve - wittingly or unwittingly - the human rendition of what is good and what is evil. As we secularise and our places of worship are empty - apart from tourists - perhaps at demo games that have accompanying story boards ?
Whilst working in the US a few decades ago my lecture tour took me close to a ACW battlefield, and I was fascinated and shocked at the re-enactment being staged so close to where the actual slaughter took place.
Perhaps I am conditioned by the undisturbed serenity one finds old killing grounds of the Picard countryside - the poppies dotted amongst the wheat, the replanted woods, the neat rows of well tended graves, and the poignant Lutyens symbolism.
However, I have to say that the NPS Rangers in their tours were adroit in stripping away the glamour of the Confederacy. Yes, they were heroic and brave soldiers, some may have seen the war as invasion or attack of State's rights, but at the core, their cause was about maintaining the evil of human slavery.
So if we portray the baddie in a public area demonstration game do we not have a moral duty to put them in the context of their inhuman beliefs or deeds ?
Apologies for the ramble - I don't get out much these days.
No.....That was very nicely put, James. I know what you mean. :)
Cheers - Phil
I think that one of several reasons I prefer Jojo Rabbit to 'Allo, 'Allo! is that the latter treats the Germans as comic buffoons whereas Jojo Rabbit uses the absurdity of Nazi atrocities to lampoon them.
We heard a story about the Salute SS display group, apparently someone asked one of the kids if they enjoyed coming out and dressing up for the day. Their reply was 'Oh, we do this at home as well...' which was slightly concerning.
X_X X_X
In despair - Phil ;)
QuoteTheir reply was 'Oh, we do this at home as well...' which was slightly concerning.
:o :o :o :o :o
Quote from: Leon on 18 June 2020, 03:03:24 PM
We heard a story about the Salute SS display group, apparently someone asked one of the kids if they enjoyed coming out and dressing up for the day. Their reply was 'Oh, we do this at home as well...' which was slightly concerning.
Don't tell social services
Quote from: Leon on 18 June 2020, 03:03:24 PM
We heard a story about the Salute SS display group, apparently someone asked one of the kids if they enjoyed coming out and dressing up for the day. Their reply was 'Oh, we do this at home as well...' which was slightly concerning.
Reading this I am reminded of the scene in The Monument's Men , when Bill Murray's character is in the cottage with the ex-Nazi -and fed up with his lies, shouts "Heil Hitler" - the reaction from the two German children is Pavlovian . They obviously did "this at home as well"
This is one of the few musicals that doesn't have a mushy feel good factor. In fact I struggle to find any other in the genre.
+ 1 Ithoriel
Rocky Horror? ;)
Hamilton?
Looking forward to it being available to stream next month. Though may start me looking at the AWI collection again... :-X
What IS it with people, that they cannot just accept that there are WRONG things in EVERY war...from pre-history to present day. They happen. :(
And the WRONG is only a SUBJECTIVE Viewpoint.
Is it RIGHT to impose your own view upon others....just because theirs MAY differ? JUST THINK ABOUT THIS! Agree to differ,
But DO NOT SUPPRESS!
As people say: 'Times Change'...BUT, the 'TIME THEN', WAS 'THEN'...so no-one should try to eradicate the 'THEN'., because things might be deplored NOW.
Are re-enactors to be vilified for being 'Vikings'...who. OF COUSE, raped and pillaged...famous for it! ;) (Though, now , they were all 'traders'! lol)
ECW 'Roundheads' for the puritan destruction in churches...or 'Kings Army' for opposing an 'elected' parliament?
Or Napoleonic re-enactors: French, for atrocities in Spain...or the Brits..re, Badajoz?
Better just leave the ACW! ;)
And WW2? I find it bizarre that modern Germany MUST eradicate anything remotely 'Nazi'...it was a VERY IMPORTANT part of their history...to be REMEMBERED with regret.!
Of course, WE, the Allies, did NO wrong. EVER? (There is a Big List...BUT we won !).
As for the people dressing up as SS...and thieir kids...SS kit IS better looking...and German children DID wear Hitler Jugend. MY MOTHER 'HATED' having to dress up as a 'LAND GIRL' for a 'fancy dress' in the 40's! I doubt that it will have any different effect on a kid, now. Will an 'ancient/Viking/ECW. etc. re-enactor's child BECOME a 'Camp Follower'? Hope not!
It is all in the eye of the beholder. So just let people BE.
You make good points. Perhaps, however, one significant difference is that neo-Nazi parties are still with us, whereas the danger of seeing a fleet of longships on the Seine doesn't seem very high today.
Apparently there is a petition in Louisiana to remove all of their 32 Confederate General statures and replace each of them with a heroic likeness of Britney Spears.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 June 2020, 06:22:44 AM
You make good points. Perhaps, however, one significant difference is that neo-Nazi parties are still with us, whereas the danger of seeing a fleet of longships on the Seine doesn't seem very high today.
I find Nazi reenactors a little bit odd but wouldn't wish to ban them. I am willing to accept that if I was a member of one of the racial groups the Nazis had it in for I might feel differently.
(That reminds me I need to put in another order for some Panzer iiis)
I meant fringe political groups that still exist and pursue the same ugly agenda under the same flag.
Whatever yor religious beliefs, I can't help feeling the sentiments here might ring a bell.
The devil wore a crucifix.
"The Christians, they are right",
The devil said, "so let us burn
A heretic tonight,
A heretic tonight."
A lily or a swastika,
A shamrock or a star
The devil he can wear them all,
No matter what they are,
No matter what they are.
In red or blue or khaki,
In green or black and tan
The devil is a patriot,
A proper party man,
A proper party man.
Whenever there's a lynching
The devil will be there -
A witch or an apostle,
The devil doesn't care,
The devil doesn't care.
He'll beat a drum in China,
He'll beat it in the west.
He'll beat a drum for anyone.
A holy war is best,
A holy war is best.
The devil isn't down in hell
Or riding in the sky.
The devil's dead (I've heard it said)
They're telling you a lie.
They're telling you a lie.
Sydney Carter "The Devil Wore A Crucifix"
Quote from: Sunray on 18 June 2020, 10:13:40 PM
This is one of the few musicals that doesn't have a mushy feel good factor. In fact I struggle to find any other in the genre.
The Producers (original version)?
I find the tune to "Springtime for Hitler" a bit of an earworm, and have caught myself whistling it whilst wandering around the supermarket. Nobody's looked at me oddly yet (that I've noticed).
Quote from: Raider4 on 19 June 2020, 09:36:15 AM
The Producers (original version)?
I find the tune to "Springtime for Hitler" a bit of an earworm, and have caught myself whistling it whilst wandering around the supermarket. Nobody's looked at me oddly yet (that I've noticed).
Just mentioned this comment and the missus is now sitting singing Springtime for Hitler.
A more relevant musical is probably Wicked which covers a lot of racial topics in it, but probably not to everyone's taste.
How times change, Boots the chemist has just released a new range called VICHY. I believe they're launching it in France on Marshall Petains birthday.
Bonus to the marketing and research teams 😬
🐵
X_X
Nearly as bad as the 75th anniversary version of Fanta, in 20105 the Coca-Cola company wanted to bring back "the feeling of the Good Old Times" >:(
Quote from: Sunray on 18 June 2020, 10:13:40 PM
This is one of the few musicals that doesn't have a mushy feel good factor. In fact I struggle to find any other in the genre.
There is* also Satan's version of
The Sound of Music, in which "the nuns hand the von Trapp family over to the Germans. And the sight of stormtroopers singing "Climb Every Mountain" does rather change the tone of the ending . . .".
* according to Old Harry's Game
Quote from: paulr on 19 June 2020, 08:39:05 PM
Nearly as bad as the 75th anniversary version of Fanta, in 20105 the Coca-Cola company wanted to bring back "the feeling of the Good Old Times" >:(
Ahh, I had no idea Fanta originated in WW2 Germany. You learn something every day. Thanks.
Quote from: Raider4 on 20 June 2020, 09:29:46 AM
Ahh, I had no idea Fanta originated in WW2 Germany. You learn something every day. Thanks.
It was marketed it as health drink
I thought the invented Fanta because the US wouldn't send 'em the Cola syrup.
Then you have Listerine mouthwash......Originally marketed as a floor cleaner, and an antidote for 'the clap'. =)
Cheers - Phil ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: fsn on 20 June 2020, 09:47:58 AM
I thought the invented Fanta because the US wouldn't send 'em the Cola syrup.
This, according to Wikipedia.
Quote from: Techno on 20 June 2020, 09:51:47 AM
Then you have Listerine mouthwash......Originally marketed as a floor cleaner, and an antidote for 'the clap'.
When radium was first discovered, it was subsequently inserted into all sorts of products that were then marketed for their health benefits. Toothpaste, especially.
Quote from: Raider4 on 20 June 2020, 10:04:04 AM
This, according to Wikipedia.
"No Such Thing as a Fish".