Good morning,
This may be my first although I have been a lurker for while, and bought my first Pendraken mjnis back in 220%(?) - early WW1 for us with GWSpearHead. in 2016 I bought some Indochina War figures for use with IABSM; and I have last Autumn (at Colours) and this year been putting together British and Italian forces for 1940-42 N Africa campaigns, using BKCIV (I bought an earlier version, which I still have, but never got around to using it).
I've now fought three battles with my one of my sons. Really enjoyable games, like the flow of the rules; but I have a few queries (not too many as the forum has been really helpful with most of the others).
The main one arises from the game we played yesterday: a deliberate attack by Brits on the Italians. He managed to get a Valentine near to my CO (sneaky flank attack :o)
He close assaulted it in his Command Phase: as the CO and HQ units have a CA rating in the Army Lists I thought the CO stand could "fight back" (however ineffectively) but the section on Command Overrun suggests that they just get Hits (and give none) and as a result are overrun, &c,.
Is this right? Should Command Units have CA ratings/factors at all? And what happens (as happened - risibly - the first time the CO was attacked when the attacking unit fails to give it any Hits?
Thanking you (all) in advance ;-)
Mike
Hello and welcome.
Thank you - I rather feel at home here. :)
Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Thank you - I rather feel at home here. :)
It wont last long - hi !
Good afternoon Henjed.
I think North Africa is the one theatre I don't play in WWII, so please don't post photos just in case I get attracted. Especially no photos of M3 tanks 'cos I don't have any of them.
Welcome to the Forum.
I have a squadron of Honeys painted up, but - thankfully (I play Italians) - they performed poorly yesterday. And you're lucky that my photography skills are as poor as my painting skills. I will keep my shame covered :-[
Welcome henjed!
To answer your question, bearing in mind our group has played all 4 versions of BKC and group think sometimes results in us playing a sort of blended version of all four, if no hits are inflicted on the Command Unit it acts as normal thereafter - running away rapidly if they have any sense.
We allow Command Units to retaliate in Close Combat - their real life equivalents were armed after all.
(Another) Mike
Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 01:02:40 PM
I have a squadron of Honeys painted up, but - thankfully (I play Italians) - they performed poorly yesterday. And you're lucky that my photography skills are as poor as my painting skills. I will keep my shame covered :-[
Forgive my inexactitude. I was thinking of the M3 Grant.
I can't abide the Honey. but reluctantly support the US Marines with a pair.
That's good to know. As it happens, my Italian commander, Pietro Angioletti (named after an Italian cider which I was drinking as I was playing) did indeed head for the hills after the failed overrun, although he still lost he game for me (narrowly) with some well dodgy Command rolls.
I noticed that the earlier version of BKC I have gives no CA factors to Command units; so was there a decision to allow them to "retaliate" when attacked, rolling however many/few dice, which perhaps wasn't reflected in the Command Overrun paragraph (which may have been carried over from II or II)? I would certainly have preferred for Pietro Angioletti to have had a chance to poke the Matilda in its metaphorical eye (however ineffectively) before running away.
fsn, or Lord Oik (I know Runcorn for its bridge and its woolley-backs), my son was inspired to get the Honeys by Crisps's "Brazen Chariots", but I have found his Vickers A13s a tougher challenge for my M13s.
(and I won't tell anyone about your brace of Honeys...)
Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 01:58:40 PM
my son was inspired to get the Honeys by Crisps's "Brazen Chariots", but I have found his Vickers A13s a tougher challenge for my M13s.
I likes me some A13's (and A9's and a10's), but I'm more of an Infantry tank man myself. More comfortable with a Matilda II or a Valentine.
Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 01:29:58 PM
That's good to know. As it happens, my Italian commander, Pietro Angioletti (named after an Italian cider which I was drinking as I was playing) did indeed head for the hills after the failed overrun, although he still lost he game for me (narrowly) with some well dodgy Command rolls.
I noticed that the earlier version of BKC I have gives no CA factors to Command units; so was there a decision to allow them to "retaliate" when attacked, rolling however many/few dice, which perhaps wasn't reflected in the Command Overrun paragraph (which may have been carried over from II or II)? I would certainly have preferred for Pietro Angioletti to have had a chance to poke the Matilda in its metaphorical eye (however ineffectively) before running away.
Welcome Henjed - it's been a while since I got me head fully around BKC IV to be frank - I am currently heavily immersed in CWCII rewrite and a fast-play Feudal Japanese set of rule.
TBF I need to recheck the BKCIV rules and also look back at BKCIII as this might be an 'over-hang' from BKCIII.
The fact that I cannot remember off the top of my head what I wrote & why there are CA factors for Commandersin BKCIV you'll just have to forgive for, for now.
It helps to have a memory like mine when writing multiple rule sets - as that way you don't get too much 'carry-over' - so your Roman Auxillia don't suddenly end up with RPG infantry upgrades ... although I have used Scorpion (Ballista) upgrades for legionaries - IMHO they work more historically that way.
Leave it with me - I'll get back to you later today.
Cheers
Mark
Thanks for the response, Mark/Big Insect. I'm conscious that rule-sets function best when accepted as 'works in progress'; and house rules, adjustments and delightful titivations are a necessary part of reflecting the rich and manifold tapestry of gaming life :D
We've played each of our three game so far with different ways of dealing with hits, and I'm yet to decide (a) which I prefer and (b) which might be "more realistic". I think more games are needed.
....and a belated welcome from me !!
Cheers - Phil
Welcome to the Forum Henjed.
The Western desert is a very unfortunate period to play, as myself and Sunjester found out. The tanks available to either side change almost every 3 months, so if you try and fight battles over the whole 1940-1942 period you end up collecting loads of vehicles to fit in with what was available at any given date. Or you just use proxies.
Quote from: fsn on 02 June 2020, 03:14:06 PM
I likes me some A13's (and A9's and a10's), but I'm more of an Infantry tank man myself. More comfortable with a Matilda II or a Valentine.
Does this also tie in with your choice of women? You prefer something dependable with curves , rather than something that is fast and unreliable? ;D
Definitely. Slow and steady.
Orcs &Techno, hi!
On the gamut of tanks I'll have to run for the desert war, I'm conscious that while I'm not going tank heavy in my games (mixed forces are more fun even though coordination has never been my strong point) any extras I have to buy to be historically accurate will be to Pendraken's gain (frankly, the Italians are straight-forward - but clearly the range on the Brit side is more of a challenge).
No plans for any DAK forces (and armour) yet... but it's early days...
Still trying to find a use for my L3s... :-/
L3's are good for ... well they're great at ... um ... well ...
... attracting AT fire?
I try and use mine in a swarming attack, preferably against infantry.
And they're cute. :)
(You could sneak a flamethrower version in for added impact.)
I have sneaked in a flamethrower version, just for the giggles.
They're so small I'm half tempted to say that they could be transported in trucks and then suddenly let loose on a nearby enemy!
They were transported on Lorries, as were Pnz 1 and II
I'm now three-quarters tempted! :D
Search the interweb for piccies, there is certainly one of IID's being offloaded in Poland?
OK ... having been through BKCII, CWC and FWC and back through my notes around the BCKIV rewrite, it was clearly my intention that Command units were to have CA values and should be able to defend themselves. However, this is not the same mechanism as an assault.
A Command unit engaged in a Command Overrun situation will fight back using an unmodified CA roll - treating the attacker unit as being in the open.
The Command unit will roll saving throws against all hits it receives. It is also subject to Suppression roles as well.
NB: Only one enemy unit may attempt a Command Overrun at a time. But multiple enemy units may not attempt command overruns on the same enemy commander in the the same turn.
Outcomes
If the Command unit survives the enemy overrun, and its opponent is still in-play (not Knocked-out) - it will react by recoiling 10cm for each unsaved hit it receives directly away from the direction of the attack from the enemy unit over-running it. It moves these multiples of 10cm even if it is suppressed. If the Command unit is driven off-table or into terrain it cannot move in, or into impenetrable terrain by these fall back moves it is considered destroyed.
If the Command unit survives the enemy overrun attempt, and its opponent is Knocked-out - it remains in position. It will still dice to save hits and will dice for suppression as normal, but will not fall-back.
I think that pretty much covers things. This was intended to be included in BCKIV but somehow I omitted to put it into the final edit.
I'll ensure that this goes into the next Errata PDF.
Hope that clarifies things?
Cheers
Mark
Thanks, Mark - that does indeed clarify the main point.
Could the same unit contact the Command unit in the initiative phase and then, having failed to score any Hits (a troop of Matildas, for God's sake!), be ordered in again later in the turn? I thought not, when this happened to me on Monday, even though the chances of a successful order being given were of course reduced...
Sorry, and one further clarification: the Command Overrun mechanism replaces the assault mechanism when one of the two units involved (always the stationary unit) involved is a Command Unit? That seems to make sense to me.
Quote from: henjed on 03 June 2020, 01:39:31 PM
Thanks, Mark - that does indeed clarify the main point.
Could the same unit contact the Command unit in the initiative phase and then, having failed to score any Hits (a troop of Matildas, for God's sake!), be ordered in again later in the turn? I thought not, when this happened to me on Monday, even though the chances of a successful order being given were of course reduced...
As the Initiative move (not an assault - see below) is not a Commanded action, then yes, if the unit subsequently receives a successful Command order it can attempt the over-run again that turn.
As you state - a Command Overrun is not an Assault - so it doesn't use the assault mechanisms.
Glad you are enjoying the rules.
Mark