One of my aims this year in the hobby is to build more terrain pieces (or any terrain pieces for that matter!). I have various bits and bobs for making scatter, trees, rough ground, etc. I also have a foam core board (formerly in service as a wedding table plan display) that just happens to be the perfect size to make a 12x8 70mm squares gaming board for my "mini" armies. This will be primarily for To The Strongest! but might see service elsewhere too.
My plan is to texture, paint and flock it up over the coming months and include a permanent grid.
Option 1 is to carve the grid directly into it when texturing (either full lines or corners)
or
Option 2 would be to just mark the corners with small rocks, grass clumps, etc.
Option 1 has the benefit of having a flatter profile for storage (or even making a double-sided board) but is obviously more visually intrusive.
Option 2 is more subtle and usable for other games too, but will have more bits sticking out of it (though nothing massive).
I'm leaning towards Option 2, but would be interested if anyone has done anything like this, or knows of anyone that has and could share pictures of what it might look like for inspiration?
Hi,
I've seen the little white plastic tile spacers used to mark the corners, stick them to your board and then texture as normal and paint over them. The crosses will show up as flat areas and are uniform in height so you stack on top of them or make it double sided with no problems.
Best wishes,
Martin
Quote from: Smoking gun on 18 May 2020, 04:58:49 PM
Hi,
I've seen the little white plastic tile spacers used to mark the corners, stick them to your board and then texture as normal and paint over them. The crosses will show up as flat areas and are uniform in height so you stack on top of them or make it double sided with no problems.
Best wishes,
Martin
Oooh that's a really good idea, may do a small test panel with that and see how it comes up. Thanks Martin.
Spacers ordered. Any other ideas and inspiration welcome!
I found simple black dots on the corners worked perfectly well for a square grid. Then I could use most of my terrain, with only some smaller pieces required.
Quote from: Steve J on 18 May 2020, 05:29:05 PM
I found simple black dots on the corners worked perfectly well for a square grid. Then I could use most of my terrain, with only some smaller pieces required.
My aim is to texture and flock it so I'd be concerned simple painted dots might get lost. I'm going to add some dots to a fabric sheet I have for bigger games as I use it for a lot of different rulesets, but want this one to be a bit more of a proper terrain board since it's reasonably small.
A small dot is enough to define a grid.
If a dot might get lost in amongst the texturing then perhaps try small stones that are largely within the terrain, rather than stuck above.
It is very easier to work out were squares should be even if you can't see all 4 corners.
Similar recent discussion (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,19731.0.html). Some ideas there.
My first thought was similar to Fred's, a small rock or rocks pressed into the foam board at the corners
I think I probably need to make a few small samples and see. One with rocks, one with spacers, one with subtle lines carved in.
I usually use stones and tufts when laying out manually so may make sense to transfer that to the permanent one.
Plan to cover the board in caulking/polyfilla or some sort of modeling plaster for strength and texture then sand, paint, flock. So having the grid or at least the corners embedded into the caulk itself before painting and flocking it should be visible but subtle.
I would carve the lines into the surface, the small 'V' shape possible. It is more functional in use and storage. The method becomes less important in those games in which you are only looking at the next square, but in games, such as WWII when ranges are constantly being assessed, hiding the grid too effectively becomes counter intuitive. Your flocking etc can also be used to dampen down the impact of a physical grid and terrain can spill over it a bit easier, which also dampens down the sense of hard lines.
Quote from: mmcv on 18 May 2020, 05:25:50 PM
Spacers ordered. Any other ideas and inspiration welcome!
Baccus6mm (Other smaller scale manufacturers are available) have been running mega-games at shows for several years.
The games had names like Leipzeig Lite, and each featured a custom terrain board.
You may find something on their blog, I remember detailed progress plans as each game was prepared.
The highlight of each battle was the terrain, one or more MDF boards with terrain attached and a subtle grid marked.
The grid was produced my masking the lines during early painting.
It then showed in the form of things like "slightly shorter grass".
Bear in mind that this was a fixed board for a single battle.
I think it may be possible to produce a basic plain using similar methods, and then embellish it with hills, woodland, streams, wild boar and barbarian villages.
Apologies, can't find a link before I have to switch off and go to work (from home).
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 19 May 2020, 06:38:05 AM
Baccus6mm (Other smaller scale manufacturers are available) have been running mega-games at shows for several years.
The games had names like Leipzeig Lite, and each featured a custom terrain board.
You may find something on their blog, I remember detailed progress plans as each game was prepared.
The highlight of each battle was the terrain, one or more MDF boards with terrain attached and a subtle grid marked.
The grid was produced my masking the lines during early painting.
It then showed in the form of things like "slightly shorter grass".
Bear in mind that this was a fixed board for a single battle.
I think it may be possible to produce a basic plain using similar methods, and then embellish it with hills, woodland, streams, wild boar and barbarian villages.
Apologies, can't find a link before I have to switch off and go to work (from home).
Thanks Steve, I'll take a look and see what I can find. That is exactly the sort of thing I want to make, though in a versatile, portable form. Terrain will be made separately to be placed on top to suit the needs of the game, so the board itself will be kept fairly simple with a reasonably generic summer ground cover.
Quote from: Norm on 19 May 2020, 05:10:12 AM
I would carve the lines into the surface, the small 'V' shape possible. It is more functional in use and storage. The method becomes less important in those games in which you are only looking at the next square, but in games, such as WWII when ranges are constantly being assessed, hiding the grid too effectively becomes counter intuitive. Your flocking etc can also be used to dampen down the impact of a physical grid and terrain can spill over it a bit easier, which also dampens down the sense of hard lines.
My primary aim is to use it with TtS! where you only really need one or two grid squares most of the time, though obviously making it as multi-use as possible would be good. I'll likely use it for mini-games of non-gridded rules too, e.g. Hail Caesar with reduced movement rates, or try out some skirmish level games.
I'm not particularly familiar with WW2 rules, especially grid-based ones, and will likely be a while before I get to a point of doing any WW2 stuff. However, it would be interesting to know how other games make use of grids. For the sort of games you're talking about, how many grid squares would typically make up a game board? This one will be 12 squares by 8 squares. And over what sort of ranges are we talking for number of squares?
I was watching a few videos from Mel the Terrain Tutor last night for ideas. My main concern was that the foam core board would warp, but as it's the PVC coated one it looks like it should be strong enough to take a coating of filler, paint and flock. Will do some small scale experiments on card to experiment with techniques and aesthetics before I start slapping filler, etc onto the big board and messing it up!
Just off the wall, but what about marking out a grid with a fluorescent metallic pigment that shows only under UV light? You could push a button and have a dark light go on to show the grid as long as you needed it, then turn it off and enjoy a natural-looking field.
O sbaglio?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 May 2020, 08:06:51 AM
Just off the wall, but what about marking out a grid with a fluorescent metallic pigment that shows only under UV light? You could push a button and have a dark light go on to show the grid as long as you needed it, then turn it off and enjoy a natural-looking field.
O sbaglio?
Haha interesting concept, however as the grid is in play most of the game you'd essentially be playing the whole thing in the dark. Though I suppose you could always indicate weather with a gentle waft of dandruff over the board as you shake your head at all the 1s.
Couldn't you have the dark light on at the same time as a normal one?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 May 2020, 08:14:10 AM
Couldn't you have the dark light on at the same time as a normal one?
I don't think you'd be able to see it then as the normal light would "wash out" the UV light. As far as I'm aware the black lights only really work in the dark or low light conditions.
Quote from: mmcv on 19 May 2020, 08:02:40 AM
I'm not particularly familiar with WW2 rules, especially grid-based ones, and will likely be a while before I get to a point of doing any WW2 stuff. However, it would be interesting to know how other games make use of grids. For the sort of games you're talking about, how many grid squares would typically make up a game board? This one will be 12 squares by 8 squares. And over what sort of ranges are we talking for number of squares?
Bob Cordery's portable wargame rules for WW2 use grids with something like 8-12 squares on each axis and give a decent simple game.
I did this a while back.
Relatively easy to do it with squares.
http://jim-duncan.blogspot.com/2012/12/big-board-portable-wargame-modern-aar.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J-Y9N89Pu78/ULuf8RdweII/AAAAAAAABGk/Z-YDdtk6qDo/s1600/P1040455.JPG)
Quote from: jimduncanuk on 19 May 2020, 02:18:16 PM
I did this a while back.
Relatively easy to do it with squares.
http://jim-duncan.blogspot.com/2012/12/big-board-portable-wargame-modern-aar.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J-Y9N89Pu78/ULuf8RdweII/AAAAAAAABGk/Z-YDdtk6qDo/s1600/P1040455.JPG)
Interesting, looks well as a game board but too defined for what I'm going for. You've got another blog subscriber though, had a flick through some of your other posts and will have to come back and read through more. I get the sense hexes work better than squares for WW2 era games given the warfare was much less linear.
I would base some clumps of lichen on small circular bases to mark the corners of the squares. If you use lichen of suitable colour for your terrain. A colour that fits in but thet is easily distinguished would be best - eg a dark green or autumn brown colour. Thay way it will look like bushes on normal inspection of the table
I think I've now 4 sample methods to try out:
1. Apply filler and paint then mark grid corners when flocking with rocks and grass tufts and lichen (good thinking orcs, I've had a bag of that for ages that I've not used) pressed into the board and overall ground cover for a subtle effect.
2. Apply filler then lightly carve full gridlines into it before it dries, then paint, flock, etc on top of that.
3. Apply filler then use stacked tile spacers to mark corners (or possibly stick them down first then fill around them), then paint and flock leaving slight flat markings for the corners.
4. Apply filler then make slight indents at the corners (with a fingertip)
....I need to get some more filler!
Any other ones?
Quote from: mmcv on 19 May 2020, 04:52:48 PM
I think I've now 4 sample methods to try out:
1. Apply filler and paint then mark grid corners when flocking with rocks and grass tufts and lichen (good thinking orcs, I've had a bag of that for ages that I've not used) pressed into the board and overall ground cover for a subtle effect.
2. Apply filler then lightly carve full gridlines into it before it dries, then paint, flock, etc on top of that.
3. Apply filler then use stacked tile spacers to mark corners (or possibly stick them down first then fill around them), then paint and flock leaving slight flat markings for the corners.
4. Apply filler then make slight indents at the corners (with a fingertip)
....I need to get some more filler!
Any other ones?
1a: instead of having the lichen, tufts, etc actually attached to the board, make them on magnetic bases. Embed more magnets (or steel tacks) in the board then you can stick the markers to the board when required. This means you can store the boards without damaging the corner markers.
Additionally, magnetically based walls, hedges, etc could be attached along the edge of a sector and anchored in place using the magnets. Ditto hills.
If you flock over the magnets then they will be invisible if you want the board for a non-gridded game.
Cheers!
Meirion
Quote from: O Dinas Powys on 19 May 2020, 05:43:55 PM
1a: instead of having the lichen, tufts, etc actually attached to the board, make them on magnetic bases. Embed more magnets (or steel tacks) in the board then you can stick the markers to the board when required. This means you can store the boards without damaging the corner markers.
Additionally, magnetically based walls, hedges, etc could be attached along the edge of a sector and anchored in place using the magnets. Ditto hills.
If you flock over the magnets then they will be invisible if you want the board for a non-gridded game.
Cheers!
Meirion
Interesting, I do like clever tricks with magnets...
However that does mean manually setting out the grid each time which is one thing I want to avoid. Though having the magnets as guides might help with speeding that up as wouldn't need to measure.
I have some magnets at the moment that I'm planning to use in making activation or wound trackers if I can source some small enough metal strips (or failing that MDF bases with magnetic stripe attached) so could experiment a bit and see how easy it is to "find" the magnets under flock.
Quote from: mmcv on 19 May 2020, 06:17:12 PM
Interesting, I do like clever tricks with magnets...
Clever trick with magnets coming up.
http://jim-duncan.blogspot.com/2016/09/just-for-you-mr-kinch.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h1147_ZBcxg/V9HU4ecJQAI/AAAAAAAAGuA/sTMXEB2tT9g1rDf5aN7IbnVw6F6H8G3BwCEw/s320/P1000365.JPG)
Quote from: jimduncanuk on 19 May 2020, 06:27:54 PM
Clever trick with magnets coming up
Great piece of kit. Will have to bear that in mind. Will need a castle for my crusades at some point in future...but that's probably a 2021 project. ???
Quote from: mmcv on 19 May 2020, 06:17:12 PM
Interesting, I do like clever tricks with magnets...
However that does mean manually setting out the grid each time which is one thing I want to avoid. Though having the magnets as guides might help with speeding that up as wouldn't need to measure.
I have some magnets at the moment that I'm planning to use in making activation or wound trackers if I can source some small enough metal strips (or failing that MDF bases with magnetic stripe attached) so could experiment a bit and see how easy it is to "find" the magnets under flock.
If you have the right magnets they'll practically find themselves! You can use a rare earth magnet to find the screws holding plasterboard onto a stud wall, so given that you'll know roughly where they should be, once you've found the first the rest should be no bother ;)
Quote from: mmcv on 19 May 2020, 08:02:40 AM
I'm not particularly familiar with WW2 rules, especially grid-based ones, and will likely be a while before I get to a point of doing any WW2 stuff. However, it would be interesting to know how other games make use of grids. For the sort of games you're talking about, how many grid squares would typically make up a game board? This one will be 12 squares by 8 squares. And over what sort of ranges are we talking for number of squares?
Poor Bloody Infantry (PBI) from Peter Pig, uses an 8 x 8 grid in squares. I typically use 12 wide by 9 or 12 deep in hexes for WWII.
Quote from: O Dinas Powys on 19 May 2020, 07:19:37 PM
If you have the right magnets they'll practically find themselves! You can use a rare earth magnet to find the screws holding plasterboard onto a stud wall, so given that you'll know roughly where they should be, once you've found the first the rest should be no bother ;)
Might be worth exploring, would need to use reasonably thin ones as I'll likely magnetise the bottom of my bases for storage and some.of those mini magnets are crazy strong, would see bases zipping to the corners by themselves!
Quote from: Norm on 19 May 2020, 10:20:07 PM
Poor Bloody Infantry (PBI) from Peter Pig, uses an 8 x 8 grid in squares. I typically use 12 wide by 9 or 12 deep in hexes for WWII.
Thanks Norm, that would be a sensible size.
No just need to work out what to do by experiments on..tried sticking a few bits of thin card together but the PVA warped them so doubt they'd take filler. Think I've some plaster card about that might work or a thick corregated cardboard.
Quote from: Norm on 19 May 2020, 10:20:07 PM
Poor Bloody Infantry (PBI) from Peter Pig, uses an 8 x 8 grid in squares. I typically use 12 wide by 9 or 12 deep in hexes for WWII.
One of the reasons I want to build a gridded table is for PBI, so I am interested in learning more, although what 'more' might be I have no idea. I gather there was a new 2015 version. Is that very different to the previous versions? What pleases you about those rules?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 May 2020, 08:14:10 AM
Couldn't you have the dark light on at the same time as a normal one?
Wouldn't that just make grey light?
Fifty shades of it, in fact.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 20 May 2020, 03:09:46 AM
Fifty shades of it, in fact.
Thats terrible - GET OUT !!!
Miaowrrrr?
Where did I put the broom, a cat has sneaked in ...
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 19 May 2020, 10:27:07 PM
One of the reasons I want to build a gridded table is for PBI, so I am interested in learning more, although what 'more' might be I have no idea. I gather there was a new 2015 version. Is that very different to the previous versions? What pleases you about those rules?
The current edition is called "Company Commander" and the army lists are a separate book called "Company Architect", beware of used sets on eBay they often are the previous versions.
I have to add a word of caution here there is talk on the RFCM Forum of a new version coming out in the next year or so, to a certain extent when depends on Covid due to playtesting restrictions etc.
There is an introductory version using just infantry which is a free download from here: https://www.peterpig.co.uk/PBIQS.pdf (https://www.peterpig.co.uk/PBIQS.pdf) There are some videos explaining the rules on the Peter Pig website accessable from here:https://peterpig.co.uk/videos%20of%20game%20mechanisms.html
Best wishes,
Martin
I didn't notice it at the time, but I think that last post of mine here was my promotion to colonel...so drinks all around chaps!
It doesn't seem that long since my last promotion....I probably need to get a life... ;) ;D
I can lend you one. =^..^=
Quote from: Smoking gun on 20 May 2020, 11:14:10 AM
The current edition is called "Company Commander" and the army lists are a separate book called "Company Architect", beware of used sets on eBay they often are the previous versions.
I have to add a word of caution here there is talk on the RFCM Forum of a new version coming out in the next year or so, to a certain extent when depends on Covid due to playtesting restrictions etc.
There is an introductory version using just infantry which is a free download from here: https://www.peterpig.co.uk/PBIQS.pdf (https://www.peterpig.co.uk/PBIQS.pdf) There are some videos explaining the rules on the Peter Pig website accessable from here:https://peterpig.co.uk/videos%20of%20game%20mechanisms.html
Best wishes,
Martin
Many thanks; very helpful. I see there is a copy of PBI II on eBay for £8. Not sure why it needs further 'upgrading'. They seem to be rules that people use but they have never reached mass market penetration.
Quote from: mmcv on 21 May 2020, 02:27:53 PM
I didn't notice it at the time, but I think that last post of mine here was my promotion to colonel...so drinks all around chaps!
It doesn't seem that long since my last promotion....I probably need to get a life... ;) ;D
Congratulations Colonel ! 1.9 posts per day is impressive use of forum. I find I am reading posts more. Always looking for a good Bat Rep, eye candy paint job, or getting a heads up on a product via networking.
This forum community is helping to maintain my sanity.
Keep posting.
James
Quote from: Sunray on 21 May 2020, 04:46:51 PM
I find I am reading posts more. Always looking for a good Bat Rep, eye candy paint job, or getting a heads up on a product via networking.
This forum community is helping to maintain my sanity.
Agree with all the above, plus I'm spending a fair bit of time on Youtube. Some interesting stuff there in amongst all the dross.
Quote from: Sunray on 21 May 2020, 04:46:51 PM
Congratulations Colonel ! 1.9 posts per day is impressive use of forum. I find I am reading posts more. Always looking for a good Bat Rep, eye candy paint job, or getting a heads up on a product via networking.
This forum community is helping to maintain my sanity.
Keep posting.
James
Thanks James! Speaking of eye candy, I hear you telling of all these wonderful diaramas and scenic pieces you make for your games. I hope we'll see some pictures in the future?
Quote from: Raider4 on 21 May 2020, 05:13:07 PM
Agree with all the above, plus I'm spending a fair bit of time on Youtube. Some interesting stuff there in amongst all the dross.
YouTube has some amazing stuff, the sheer quantity of superb historical videos and other informative channels , lecturers, etc, provide a good background listen or watch. I've been doing a lot on the late bronze age and early imperial Chinese history while painting in preparation for a couple of new projects.
Congratulations on the promotion MMCV
Quote from: mmcv on 21 May 2020, 05:39:34 PM
Thanks James! Speaking of eye candy, I hear you telling of all these wonderful diaramas and scenic pieces you make for your games. I hope we'll see some pictures in the future?
As soon as the Leven harbour gets to me via "THE MAILMAN" - I call him Kevin Costner - and a few extra bits arrive, I will get building. I have it planned out on hardboard. 12"x 12"
The Cruel Sea Project in 10mm is also awaiting guns and torpedoes. I have modified Dinky MTB hulls . :)
I have also discovered a Halfords primer in a dark matt red- ideal for tile roofs!
Stay safe.
James
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 21 May 2020, 03:57:20 PM
Many thanks; very helpful. I see there is a copy of PBI II on eBay for £8. Not sure why it needs further 'upgrading'. They seem to be rules that people use but they have never reached mass market penetration.
Hi,
That's very true about mass market penetration. PBI II is two versions ago (2000), the previous version (2006) had a green cover with British troops sheltering behind a tank and a couple of "in game" photos there's a photo here: http://40somethingwargamer.blogspot.com/2006/09/pbi-ww2-rules.html (http://40somethingwargamer.blogspot.com/2006/09/pbi-ww2-rules.html), I've seen this version on eBay for around £15, the latest update is to simplify a couple of mechanisms which has already been done in the sister game Bayonets and Ideology (Spanish Civil War) which was updated more recently. Peter Pig RFCM don't update their rules very frequently PBI was last published in 2015, the talk of a new version only came about as a co-operative or solo play version was being play tested and that led to a review of current mechanisms. The solo version is on hold due to the covid situation.
Best wishes,
Martin
Quote from: Smoking gun on 22 May 2020, 01:23:21 PM
The solo version is on hold due to the covid situation.
Strange, you'd think that version would be the one people would snap up at the moment.
Quote from: Raider4 on 22 May 2020, 02:02:09 PM
Strange, you'd think that version would be the one people would snap up at the moment.
Yes, the delay is due to it being primarily intended as a co-op game, two players versus a rules controlled enemy, so playtesting is an issue as is further rules development due to manpower issues, the Peter Pig figure manufacture is still running as is sculpting with new releases in the past weeks, all done by one person. It's a very small company not as big as Pendraken for example.
Best wishes,
Martin
I carved one board with "grids" using dremel. Very fast and easy if you go with an MDF board.