Hi Folks
It's Tony of TTT back again with yet another plea for some help on flags for a new Pendraken range.
As you may have seen on the Peninsular non-kickstarter, two sheets of Spanish flags are included (the British & Portuguese are already done) and the plan was to have one for the regular regiments and the second for the regional regiments. Napoleonics are not one of my great interests so my source material is limited but, according to those, there seems to be very little known about the flags of Spanish units other than some general descriptions and a small number of surviving examples.
I have the Osprey books on Napoleonic flags, Keith Over's book and a bunch of bits on websites that hasn't taken my researches much beyond the limited info in the Osprey. I have found some flag designs for the SYW (on Kronskaf) that match the general style described for the regular flags and hoped to be able to verify that these were, if nothing else, a 'best bet' to reconstruct the Napoleonic flags from but next to nothing on the Regional flags.
Is there anyone out there that has more information on Spanish flags of the period or can point me to other resources that are easily available. I'd like someone more knowledgeable than me (which shouldn't be difficult) to bounce ideas off if I do have to 'reconstruct' where evidence is limited and/or come up with ideas that I can run with.
I don't read Spanish myself but I do have a mate who does so Spanish sources are OK.
Tony
Hi,
It seems to be difficult to find much info as there were so many new flags needed fter 1808. Going with a variant of the 1762 pattern is a safe bet, and almost anything goes for the various volunteers.
https://www.pinterest.cl/gardner6641/spanish-army-1808/flags/ (https://www.pinterest.cl/gardner6641/spanish-army-1808/flags/)
has a nice collection of inspiring flags.
I'll see i I can find a bit more using my faltering spanish.
( The first thing we were taught at school was to pick any Federico Garcia Lorca poem and memorise it. Apparently performing that would endear you to locals and they would give you food and drink.)
Cheers,
Aksu
Thanks Aksu
Some of those images are usable as templates but many don't say what the unit is so are of very limited use. As you say though, they give an excellent spread of possibilities. If I could only find some confirmation of source to validate them it would be great - unfortunately Pinterest doesn't have that most of the time.
It is also a good starting point to other sites/sources by clicking on the images and following links I have found a similar site that has some flags with an ensign so I might be able to ID the unit.
I have Partridge & Olivers 'Nap. army handbook' that lists units and that is a guide I'm using to help ID stuff. What I have noted is that many of the 'Volunteer' units and even some Militia regiments were actually regulars and may have had flags based on the regular model but with variations (such as mottoes).
Tony
The two books from Ken Trotman on the 1808-1809 Spanish have colour prints flags for many individual regiments, including a written list for militia:
Spanish Infantry of the Early Peninsula war, Uniforms Organisation and Equipment of the Line and Militia, Gerard Cronin & Stephen Summerfield, Ken Trotman Publishing (2014) ISBN 978-1-907417-42-9
Spanish Cavalry of the Early Peninsula War, Uniforms Organistion and Equipment of the Line Cavalry, Guard and Artillery, Gerard Cronin & Stephen Summerfield, Ken Trotman Publishing (2016)
ISBN 978-1-907417-74-0
The latter even has sapper and marine flags!
Mark
This site might be useful
https://sites.google.com/site/banderasmilitares/banderas/espana/ejercito-de-tierra/infanteria-borbones-hasta-gi (https://sites.google.com/site/banderasmilitares/banderas/espana/ejercito-de-tierra/infanteria-borbones-hasta-gi)
The Spanish defence ministry library has quite a bit of useful stuff, this is quite interesting... oops actually not really, but it gives an overview of the topic.
http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es/BVMDefensa/i18n/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?path=74731 (http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es/BVMDefensa/i18n/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?path=74731)
And as Mark said, the Cronin & Summerfield books are good.
Cheers,
Aksu
If one had unlimited funds this might be good. But as I was just fired today an hour ago from my day job (thanks Mr Covid) I'll give it a pass :) 135 quid is a bit steep.
MANZANO, Antonio, Las banderas históricas del Ejército español
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9788478235032/banderas-hist%C3%B3ricas-ej%C3%A9rcito-espa%C3%B1ol-Antonio-8478235035/plp (https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9788478235032/banderas-hist%C3%B3ricas-ej%C3%A9rcito-espa%C3%B1ol-Antonio-8478235035/plp)
Cheers,
Aksu
Hi Asku
Bad news, my sympathies, for what its worth.
I have seen that book quoted on at least one website but, as you say, outside my budget I'm afraid.
The websites seem useful but I think the first one only repeats some I've got already, most are much earlier than 1808 too.
I'll get to the others later today.
Tony
A few more
https://sites.google.com/site/banderasmilitares/banderas/espana/ejercito-de-tierra/infanteria-g-independencia-hasta-g-civil?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F&showPrintDialog=1 (https://sites.google.com/site/banderasmilitares/banderas/espana/ejercito-de-tierra/infanteria-g-independencia-hasta-g-civil?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F&showPrintDialog=1)
Aksu
A pair captured by the French. The sources mentioned above are as good as it is going to get I think.
Hi Mark
I'll look into that later today. Just about to start my share of the housework by washing the kitchen floor.
Tony
Aksu, my sympathies on the job front :(
Sorry Aksu.
Hope you get sorted in short order.
Aksu, that's rough, hope you are okay
Quote from: Aksu on 11 May 2020, 12:21:37 PM
But as I was just fired today an hour ago from my day job (thanks Mr Covid)...
Sorry to hear that Aksu, is that a permanent thing or a temporary lay-off until the Covid situation is over?
Thanks chaps, much appreciated. I’m afraid it is permanent, a quarter of the 150 people in the company were laid off. The good thing is that we’ll get paid until end of July but no work obligations once you hand over your tasks to the survivors. The company has (civil) aviation as one of it’s main customers so no wonder the cash and demand situation is in a bit of a free fall.
Anyway, never been fired before, always managed to press the eject button myself before that, so now I am one experience richer!
So, like the Spanish army, they can beat us but they can’t keep us down! On to victory! Or Death? Umm... Victory please, If you don’t mind :)
Cheers,
Aksu
Quote from: Aksu on 12 May 2020, 02:07:29 AM
Thanks chaps, much appreciated. I'm afraid it is permanent, a quarter of the 150 people in the company were laid off. The good thing is that we'll get paid until end of July but no work obligations once you hand over your tasks to the survivors. The company has (civil) aviation as one of it's main customers so no wonder the cash and demand situation is in a bit of a free fall.
That's a real shame, I hope you're able to find something quickly but at least you get some hobby time until July!
Good luck getting a new position, Moomin.
Despite its rep DWP are very helpful. Get yourself registered ASAP.
I don't think the DWP covers Aksu's neck of the woods
Best of luck with the job hunt
Sorry to hear about your job Aksu. that is tough, but you seem to be fairly practical about it. Good luck with finding something new.
Quote from: paulr on 12 May 2020, 07:26:05 AM
I don't think the DWP covers Aksu's neck of the woods
Best of luck with the job hunt
Iv'e given up trying to work out were peps are :D
Quote from: Orcs on 12 May 2020, 07:37:46 AM
Sorry to hear about your job Aksu. that is tough, but you seem to be fairly practical about it. Good luck with finding something new.
Same thoughts here, Aksu. :(
Very best of luck !
Cheers - Phil
Thanks again for the well wishing :) honestly I'm fine, pretty confident i can find something as at least in theory my skills (service design, ux design) are very much in demand now. And the benefit system in Finland is very good (hooray for socialism) even if worst comes to worst.
Now, where did I put those lovely pendraken Aztecs I bought on an impulse... They are vaguely linked to the topic of Spanish flags after all.
Cheers,
Aksu
A man with a plan. 8)
All the best Aksu .... and anyone else in a similar position.
Quote from: Aksu on 12 May 2020, 08:29:42 AM
Now, where did I put those lovely pendraken Aztecs I bought on an impulse... They are vaguely linked to the topic of Spanish flags after all.
Do it! I've been working my way through the Aztecs too, beautiful figures, and full of colourful painting opportunities.
P.S. Sorry to hear about your job, hope something else comes your way soon.
Hope you all remembered who nagged and whined for a decade or so to get them produced!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 12 May 2020, 04:09:18 PM
Hope you all remembered who nagged and whined for a decade or so to get them produced!
It was Ian wasn't it? ???
;D
Definitely Ian's fault!
Yep Ian , and his Bl**dy Aztecs this , Meso a Fipping American that. "They must have the right feather shoved up their ........", You need to have the obsidian swords in this shape. The shields must have linen skirts - what were Shields that identified as women ???
probably way too late but there are a few here
https://www.a2mminiaturistasmilitares.com/uniformes-miniaturistas-militares/banderas-de-la-guerra-de-la-independencia.html
In general a google search in Spanish for "guerra de la independencia" will throw up more images especially of material produced for the 200 year anniversary. (but ignore the mexican one!!)
I have a copy of the carrera uniforms book but there are none in that. My Spanish is just about tolerable for a Guiri (so they tell me) but web translation is pretty good these days.
Thanks for that, two of those I hadn't seen in that level of detail before so certainly useful.
I've got the basic Line flag generic bits done and some of the regimental 'badges' that go in the corners. What I'm coming to next is to add some of the non-regular & provincial units formed after 1808. Much more difficult to find clear descriptions or recreations of those. I'm getting there steadily.
Tony of TTT
Quote from: TinyTinTroops on 20 May 2020, 11:50:05 AM
Thanks for that, two of those I hadn't seen in that level of detail before so certainly useful.
I've got the basic Line flag generic bits done and some of the regimental 'badges' that go in the corners. What I'm coming to next is to add some of the non-regular & provincial units formed after 1808. Much more difficult to find clear descriptions or recreations of those. I'm getting there steadily.
Tony of TTT
Generic is definitely the way to go I think with regular army colours. The regimental badges you allude to are the arms of the Province in which the regiment was recruited so every one was different.
Hi John
The corner images are not always exactly the same as the provincial arms as they are today (or probably even as they were then). I've found two that are different out of the limited set I have so I'm being a bit cautious. Some are quite pictorial and would take a deal of time (and so Leon's cash) to draw so I'm sticking with ones I can do with existing bits or simple ones. I have 5 done and want to add a guard and an Irish set so only 2 of the 'old' regulars to sort to get a sheet of 9 regiments (2 flags each).
Some of the provincials & those raised post 1808 seem to have been based on the same design but with differences - I'll do some of those but wanted to have a few of the more outlandish types as well - just for variety.
While I can't be sure of the historical veracity of what I end up with, I do want to stick as close as possible to what is known or has been guessed by those who know better. The problem is that a good deal of the info is vague, imprecise or varies between sources and it is obvious that some of the published sources in English have added more than a bit of their own interpretation while the Spanish sources seem to avoid anything speculative.
Does that seem a reasonable approach to you or do you think I'm being too picky ??
Tony
Tony,
Missed this one. No I don't think you are being too picky at all. Old regular army colours were reissued to some new units, some completely new colours, of individual design, were presented to others and, in 1811 I think, new designs were allegedly presented national army regiments. It is certainly possible to say what colours were carried by regiments of the regular army in 1808 but beyond that, the answer to what colours were carried by which regiment, and when, is, in a great many cases, 'nobody knows'. Stephen Summerfield's book has a chapter on the colours carried by regular army regiments in 1808.