Not wishing to clog up the new Not Kickstarter thread, I thought I'd ask for advice from better informed forumites here instead
I have some knowledge on Brits and Portugese but am a complete novice on Spanish uniforms
Will the grenadiers have the embroidered bag on their bearskins ?
What was the differences between Bourbon and Regional fusileers ?
What are the differences between Provincial infantry and National Infantry ?
Good questions and would love to know the answers. I'm going to check my Blandford's book on the War later on to see if that has any info in it.
I've already asked Leon this, as most wargamers I know wouldn't identify their Napoleonic Spanish by the terms Bourbons or nationals.
Apparently Bourbon Spanish are the 1805-1808 uniforms in bicornes, long tailed coats, with grenadiers in "tall mitres".
The Nationals are the 1812+ British supplied uniforms in stovepipe shakos.
The others are for the middle period 1809-1812 ish, which is probably the most interesting, colourful and varied polygot army you could find in Europe outside of the Balkans. The "chistera" is the top hat or round hat. Having said that I've no idea what teh Regional Fusiliers & grenadiers look like either.
Mark
As Mark has said above, the Bourbon army is the earlier period with the formal long tailed coats and bicornes. The regionals are the ragtag bunch in the middle period with an assortment of uniforms, and then the national army is the newly attired 1812 troops with the British supply.
Quote from: sultanbev on 02 May 2020, 08:50:13 PM
I've already asked Leon this, as most wargamers I know wouldn't identify their Napoleonic Spanish by the terms Bourbons or nationals.
We can call them something else if there's a more appropriate terminology for them.
Quote from: sultanbev on 02 May 2020, 08:50:13 PM
I've already asked Leon this, as most wargamers I know wouldn't identify their Napoleonic Spanish by the terms Bourbons or nationals.
Apparently Bourbon Spanish are the 1805-1808 uniforms in bicornes, long tailed coats, with grenadiers in "tall mitres".
The Nationals are the 1812+ British supplied uniforms in stovepipe shakos.
The others are for the middle period 1809-1812 ish, which is probably the most interesting, colourful and varied polygot army you could find in Europe outside of the Balkans. The "chistera" is the top hat or round hat. Having said that I've no idea what teh Regional Fusiliers & grenadiers look like either.
Mark
Leon has modified the list on the other thread, which should make it more understandable. The Spanish army of this period is very complex and the answer to many questions is often 'nobody knows'.
When I put the notes and reference material together I tried to stick to terms used in the material I was using.
The 'Bourbon army' figures are in the Pattern 1805 uniform of the old Spanish army, bicornes, short tailed coats, long for officers (long tailed coats generally were last used on the Pattern 1797 uniform). They comprise fusiliers in a bicorn and grenadiers in a bearskin with the characteristic 'flame' at the back, breeches and gaiters with knapsacks, cartridge pouches etc as per the regs. These figures represent the Bourbon army that was involved in the invasion of Portugal in 1807 and the resistance to the French occupation in 1808. There were, incidentally, at least two regiments still in the 1797 uniform in 1808, and 12 in the blue Pattern 1802 uniform.
The 'Regional' figures reflect the remains of the old regular army that still formed an important part of the five regional armies (Ejércitos Regionales) established towards the end of 1808. They are still in the pattern 1805 uniform, but it reflects the 'distressed' state they had become by c1809. Trousers replace breeches and blanket rolls replace knapsack, some will haversacks and civilian water bottles and so on.
Also included are some types of the volunteer and provincially raised troops that can't be sourced from the 1809 and 1815 ranges, notably militia in civilian clothes and provincial types with the Chistera hat, such as those raised in Seville, Andalucia, Navarre and Catalonia for example.
Finally, there are the uniforms authorised for the infantry of the 'Ejercito Nacional' in 1811. These were British supplied and started to arrive in Portugal in mid-1812. They never replaced other types and styles completely. So although the Spanish army wore uniform, is was not. ;D
For a concise guide I'd recommend the three Osprey volumes by Rene Chartrand which cover the army from 1793 to 1815.
Hope this helps.
Very useful info as I fancy the ragtag look for the Spanish. Time to start pondering an order...
Get a copy of Armies of the Napoleonic Era by Von Pifka, rather old and sometimes inaccurate, but covers almost everyone. My copy has paint stains all through it.
We tend to just refer to the Spanish uniforms as:
a) 1808 era
b) junta period
c) British supplied
"For a concise guide I'd recommend the three Osprey volumes by Rene Chartrand which cover the army from 1793 to 1815."
Yes, seconded, got them, and the corresponding Portuguese ones. For Ospreys they are quite outstanding. When I build my Spanish force up to a Corps level, I'll probably just pick all the random units highlighted in the texts of those books and field them.
Mark
i use the Active Service Press books (John Rafferty).
Really good simple guides.
These links might be helpful:
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/06/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-1-parte-en-1808.html
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/06/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-2-parte-en-1808.html
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/07/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-3-parte-en-1808.html
(Three part series with lots of colour)
These are found on this amazing blog which has huge amounts of information - just takes a bit of looking:
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/
Some more options:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_uniforms_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars
https://balagan.info/peninsular-war-painting-guide-spanish-infantry
https://balagan.info/peninsular-war-painting-guide-spanish-cavalry
Hope this helps - certainly enough to keep you painting for a long time !
Phil
Very helpful info - thanks all
Quote from: Glorfindel on 03 May 2020, 11:21:39 AM
These links might be helpful:
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/06/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-1-parte-en-1808.html
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/06/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-2-parte-en-1808.html
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2015/07/el-ejercito-y-la-armada-3-parte-en-1808.html
(Three part series with lots of colour)
Bueno has written a lot on the Spanish army. His books comprised a principal part of the material I used. To be honest though, I have a poor view of sites that download books like Canovas' does. Copyright seems to mean little these days.
The Peninsula, my all time most favorite theater for Napoleonics. There is tremendous opportunity for creating some truly colorful and awesome looking regiments for both the French and their allies, and for the Spanish. After doing these two armies the British and Portuguese are pretty boring!!!
For the French allies, you have Hessian's, Polish, Nassau, Naples, Swiss, Hanoverian's, Italians, Frankfurt and my favorite the Princes Battalions composed of troops from various small German principalities so each company wore a different uniform. I can provide uniforms for all of these. And French grenadiers wearing white greatcoats, or the 13th Cuirassiers in brown coats faced maroon, or Dragoons in brown coats faced pink or orange!!! There are some nice Bouquay cards for the French, and don't forget he Garde de Paris (both regiments served in Spain). And of the course, "the Canaries" - Nuechatel (Swiss) in yellow ocher faced red!!!
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/hh235/terry37photos/Garde_de_Paris_1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/0f29c215-f146-4354-a507-4be0053e17cc)
Garde de Paris, 1st Uniform
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/hh235/terry37photos/Garde_de_Paris_2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/7d850dca-7091-4dc4-b252-c8ff0b0aa7bd)
Garde de Paris, 2nd uniform
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/hh235/terry37photos/Neufchatel_2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/d181a125-a334-4f82-8613-74c2bccb33f5)
Neuchatel infantry and artillery
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/hh235/terry37photos/Napoleonic/.highres/DSCF1886_zpsz0udq3wo.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/0392de5b-9cca-4145-9abf-daef223815d6)
French Dragoons in brown coats (When uniforms wore out locally made brown cloth was used)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/hh235/terry37photos/Prince's_Battalions_2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/f7c20977-ab0c-4d49-aabf-d2d0c2877295)
Princes Battalion
The Spanish are even more fun. Most gamers fall victim to the early 1805 uniform which was not really worn much in he breakout years 1808 to 14. From 1808 to 14, no two regiments hardly dressed eh same, even with the British supplied uniforms. During this period they wore captured French, modified captured French, home spun. modified 1805 and British - which was dark, blue, light blue a mix of the two, and facings in red, green. black, yellow and white - some with lapels added, or a French shako, etc. it was not willy-nilly however and here are records of what many regiments wore. The best book on the subject is "Uniforms Espanoles de la Guerra de Independencia" by Jose Maria Bueno Carrera. However, this is a really expensive book, usually in the several hundred dollar range (USD). The text is all in Spanish, but the plates are excellent. Here are a couple to give you an idea.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/hh235/terry37photos/Napoleonic/.highres/Asturian%20Units_zpssv6zh5tf.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/9b728c6d-2fdb-4ebc-8e11-4e4bcbb3dd8d)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/hh235/terry37photos/Napoleonic/.highres/Andalusian%20Troops_zps2bvdpkre.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/df08b1c2-f93b-4c8e-8851-dfd70f2a8425)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/hh235/terry37photos/bcfcab2fa4695cf4760eb8a0bb4ef628.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/terry37photos/p/3a927071-5ae9-49a5-9ebf-3d9dd6300086)
If you will contact me via email, I can probably share all you'll need. I have studied and collected material on the Peninsula since the 60's.
Terry
Some very useful info there Terry :).
Thanks for the useful info posted. I contributed to the 1809 project - great figures (still in the bags!) as I'm attempting to finalise my 10mm ACW project and looking to do the Indian Mutiny - see separate post. Tonight I will be looking through my Peninsular books and thinking about what I would need. Order will definitely be in before May end. I think 2021 will be my year for Naps!
Quote from: Scolty on 04 May 2020, 02:31:57 PM
I think 2021 will be my year for naps!
Wonder why you think you are going to be particularly tired next year ? ;)
OUT ! Ian go and collect your coat, remember to keep your social distance from Nobby (advisable even before lockdown :) )
I'm normally at least 2 miles from Nobby when he's at work, and Wuncorn is 20 miles away, so safe from im. :P
Nice one!
Currently working from home and having lots of fun with IT (my fellow teachers working in Scotland will understand...).
Back to marking...
Scolty
(not too tired...)
In the Spanish list, it doesn't say whether the infantry (for whatever period) will be in March Attack or Firing poses. Could you let us know what the poses would be please?
For the Cavalry, from my Blandford's book, it would appear that the Spanish Line Cavalry and Dragoons would be wearing Bicornes, with the Hussars possibly in Mirliton Caps. Again could you confirm or correct please?
When I know the answers to the above I can then put in my pledge :).
Quote from: Steve J on 06 May 2020, 06:52:33 AM
In the Spanish list, it doesn't say whether the infantry (for whatever period) will be in March Attack or Firing poses. Could you let us know what the poses would be please?
For the Cavalry, from my Blandford's book, it would appear that the Spanish Line Cavalry and Dragoons would be wearing Bicornes, with the Hussars possibly in Mirliton Caps. Again could you confirm or correct please?
When I know the answers to the above I can then put in my pledge :).
Hi, Leon will no doubt confirm when he's got over the food poisoning but the notes and images I provided were for infantry 'March Attack', only because that is my preference. I'm confident that is what will be produced. On the cavalry, I don't have the Blandford book so I can't comment. What I can say is that the notes I provided for the Line Cavalry and Dragoons were in the Pattern 1805 uniform - Line in bicorn, cavalry boots and carbine, Dragoons in bicorn, gaiters and musket, the Hussars in Pattern 1802 with Mirliton.
Thanks for the feedback John :).
Regarding the Spanish Cazadores, I believe the 1802 uniform would be a Hussar style uniform with a Tarleton style helmet and the 1805 uniform in a more traditional light infantry cut with Bicorne. Am I right in thinking this?
Yes, that's right. There were a three changes of uniform in the Spanish infantry, as a whole, between 1797 and 1805. The Cazadores Pattern 1800 was French in style, long tails, exposed waistcoat, and was a mainly a change in colour from green to blue. This changed in 1802 to the green light cavalry-style with helmet you describe, and again in 1805 to a conventional style like the line infantry, but in blue. Authorised in 1806, the Pattern 1805 didn't reach the regiments until 1808 and the Cazadores regiments of Romana's Division were still wearing the Pattern 1802 when, as a then French ally, it deployed to Northern Germany in 1807. They were, presumably, still wearing in after they returned to Spain, courtesy of the RN, in October 1808, and when they became 5th Division of the Army of Galicia. Other than Romana's, which regiment wore which uniform and when is something I haven't seen established by anyone.
Thanks for confirming this John :). Now it's a case of deciding which one (or both :D) I fancy getting!
No question. You know what the answer to that is :)
It's futile resisting it I know, but one can but try ;) :D.
Hullo,
Here is a list I compiled of Spanish militia uniforms in May 1808. Quite ragtag.
http://www.the-ancients.com/gemigabok/spanish-militia-uniforms-in-may-1808/ (http://www.the-ancients.com/gemigabok/spanish-militia-uniforms-in-may-1808/)
Cheers,
Aksu
Very interesting Aksu and an awful lot of brown it would seem.
Leon, I know you have a lot of catching up to do, but any chance confirming the Spanish poses please?
Quote from: Steve J on 18 May 2020, 05:23:29 AM
Leon, I know you have a lot of catching up to do, but any chance confirming the Spanish poses please?
They've all been edited in the not-Kickstarter thread, so the poses are in the descriptions:
Spanish
NSP1 Fusiliers in 1805 uniform, march attack (c1807) £5.50
NSP2 Fusilier command in 1805 uniform (c1807) £5.50
NSP3 Grenadiers in 1805 uniform (c1807), march attack inc. command (16) £2.95
NSP4 Mounted officer (5) £1.85
NSP5 Cazadores in 1802 uniform, firing line, inc command £5.50
NSP6 Cazadores in 1805 uniform, firing line, inc. command £5.50
NSP7 Fusiliers in 1805 uniform, march attack (c1809-1810) £5.50
NSP8 Fusilier command in 1805 uniform (c1809-1810) £5.50
NSP9 Grenadiers in 1805 uniform, march attack (c1809-1810) (16) £2.95
NSP10 Provincial Volunteers/Militia in civilian clothes (c1809) £5.50
NSP11 Provincial infantry in Chistera hat, march attack (c1809-1813) £5.50
NSP12 Provincial infantry command in Chistera (c1809-1813) (15) £2.75
NSP13 Line infantry, march attack (c1812-1814) £5.50
NSP14 Line infantry command (1812-1814) (15) £2.75
NSP15 Guerillas, skirmishing, inc. command £5.50
NSP16 Line Cavalry £5.50
NSP17 Dragoons £5.50
NSP18 Hussars £5.50
NSP19 Cazadores a Caballo £5.50
NSP20 Garrochista lancers £5.50
NSP21 4pdr with line crew (3) £5.50
NSP22 4pdr with horse crew (3) £5.50
NSP23 8pdr with line crew (3) £5.50
NSP24 8pdr with horse crew (3) £5.50
NSP25 12pdr with line crew (3) £5.50
NSP26 12pdr with horse crew (3) £5.50
NSP27 7" Howitzer with line crew (3) £5.50
NSP28 7" Howitzer with horse crew (3) £5.50
NSP29 Limber with mule team (2) £5.50
NSP30 Limber with team / out-riders (2) £5.50
NSP31 Spanish ADCs/Generals (3 poses) £1.20
PNFL521 Spanish flags 1 £2.50
PNFL522 Spanish flags 2 £2.50
Thanks Leon :).
HHmmmm. What scheming Post-Covid plan is going on here? 10mm Napoleonics ...
I might have missed it but do we know which type of headgear the Spanish artillery crews will be sculpted in ?
I'm guessing the foot will be in bicornes but will the horse crews be in French style shakos or British tarleton type helmets ?
The artillery will be wearing the correct headgear :D Foot in bicornes, the horse in a shako.
Thank you John :)