Advance warning - this will be a rambling dialogue rather than a straightworward "Can I have a grenadier with a felling axe" type post.
I've the past year Ive become interested in Nicholas Wright's "Irregular Wars": http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/p/irregular-wars-conflict-at-worlds-end.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/p/irregular-wars-conflict-at-worlds-end.html)
The setting is what I'd describe as proto colonial.
The lands on the fringes of the European world during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
Europeans will feature as traders, raiders, conquerors and colonists.
The locals are drawn form Ireland, Africa, the Americas and Caribbean, India, The East Indies, The Central Asian steppe, The Far East ...
After some thought I've settled on 10mm as the ideal scale for the game.
Some of the models like artillery, elephants and wagons are simply too bulky for the standard 30mm square bases in 15mm, and my table won't accommodate a great expansion.
After a bit of a grub through the interesting lists, and the Pendraken catalogue, I concluded that "This is almost possible".
Most European expeditions or colonists forces can be drawn form the Renaissance ranges.
Big salute here for the recent Irish releases that fill a lot of gaps.
Some parts of the world are well catered: Aztecs or Ottomans - no problem at all.
Others are vaguely possible with some imaginative proxying - Zulus, or Ansar for example for the warriors in a tribal African force; Mongols for central Asian horsemen.
The recent Mutiny releases supply a number of casts that would convert nicely as lighter indian troops, while heavier ottoman cavalry might pass as Mughal cavalry.
Some lists require some extreme imagination to cobble a fighting force together.
A pick and mix form Aztec, Plains Wars and French and Indian ranges might cover some of the North American natives (if you don't look too hard).
There are also a few lower class troops form the Ancients era who'd stand in as generic "man with pointed stick" or "man with pointed stick and horse".
Alas a lot of ancient warriors opted to protect their noggin with distinctive headgear, which rather limits re-cycling potential.
By this point I know you're thinking "Just tell me what you want" (what you really really .. [ That's enough lyrics - Ed.])
I'm not sure yet, matching up 48 army lists with a catalogue of several thousand items takes a bit of time.
So rather than posting a list of 10 things I want starting with a Hawaiaan Kahuna Priest through headhunters with blowpipes and concluding with Manchu light artillery.
I through it best to ask a couple of questions first.
1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiences).
2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".
Ta
Quote1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiences).
Not interested in these rules
Quote2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".
This would be 'fun' to watch ;)
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 08 January 2020, 05:33:17 PM
Europeans will feature as traders, raiders, conquerors and colonists.
The locals are drawn form Ireland . . .
So, you don't count Ireland as part of Europe?
Is form really a preposition?
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 08 January 2020, 05:33:17 PM
1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiencs).
2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".
Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.
I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...
We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.
Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.
Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW, Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention
I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords
I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them
Quote from: Raider4 on 08 January 2020, 06:20:04 PM
So, you don't count Ireland as part of Europe?
Take it up with Starkey if you want to argue historicals definitions.
Quote from: fred. on 08 January 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.
I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...
We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.
Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.
Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW, Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention
I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords
I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them
Thanks for the pointers Fred.
I certainly won't be building all the lists.
My interest lies in and around the Indian Ocean and the Adjoining Pacific.
That implies Portuguese and Hollanders as the early explorers, with Spanish, English and French arriving later.
Home terrain might include East Africa, Gulf States, India, East Indies, Ming or Manchu in China. Possibly Japan and Korea.
Like any gamer, I'm willing to switch geography if it simplifies getting troops on the table.
Than I remember i'd promised no figure purchases in 2020 - Hmm, was than no purchases, or a few...
You'll be fine, the forces don't need that many figures, especially if you go with 30mm basing.
I've gone with around 3x resolve for the number of infantry on a base, with 30mm basing, you would perhaps need around 2x resolve, or perhaps slightly fewer figures per base, which should require fairly few figures.
I've not really thought about those areas - but can see how they could be difficult to get figures for. I've done a map (I think the one from the rulebook cover) with all the various lists put where they 'live' mainly so that I could see who was a likely opponent for each other. I'll dig this out and post it.
For your Gulf states, 16th century Omanis and assorted kingdoms in the horn of Africa have similar wild hair to Hedendowa, so 19th colonial "fuzzy-wuzzies" would do, although you'd need some with matchlocks, and even a field gun or two. I've used them in 15mm for my Omani Napoleonic army.
It's probably what you've called the Arabian list looking at the contents on the link you provided.
The Omanis had cavalry and camelry too, so it's a good excuse for Pendraken to complete their 1880s Sudan range and make fuzzy-wuzzy matchlock men, and spear/sword armed cavalry and camelry. Item SC19 Madhist armoured cavalry would be good for any sultan's bodyguard cavalry unit. The Omanis often had Baluchi mercenaries, which just look like ragtag Afghans, which the 1890s NW Frontier range provide for the matchlockmen and command - for spearmen MUT6 spear armed figure would be fine. Talking of which, I need to request some Afghan tribesmen armed with spears, which then extends the existing 1880s ones back to 1790s and probably earlier.
Mark
Off at a tangent, but interesting that you mentioned Goblins as proxies..
My initial toe in the water around exploration and the Indian ocean involved Dragon Rampant - with warbands having options on some of their local myths and legends.
After drawing up 15 - 18 lists, and painting the first four I figured I'd require a proxy for all the more obscure or less civic cultures.
This the UGOH (Universal Goblin Orc Horde) was born.
You want Golden Horde, we have Golden Horde - but they ride on wolves.
Ayuthayya Siam? we have those too, but they're a bit green.
Quote from: fred. on 08 January 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.
I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...
We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.
Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.
Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW, Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention
I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords
I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them
Quote from: sultanbev on 08 January 2020, 10:48:51 PM
For your Gulf states, 16th century Omanis and assorted kingdoms in the horn of Africa have similar wild hair to Hedendowa, so 19th colonial "fuzzy-wuzzies" would do, although you'd need some with matchlocks, and even a field gun or two. I've used them in 15mm for my Omani Napoleonic army.
It's probably what you've called the Arabian list looking at the contents on the link you provided.
The Omanis had cavalry and camelry too, so it's a good excuse for Pendraken to complete their 1880s Sudan range and make fuzzy-wuzzy matchlock men, and spear/sword armed cavalry and camelry. Item SC19 Madhist armoured cavalry would be good for any sultan's bodyguard cavalry unit. The Omanis often had Baluchi mercenaries, which just look like ragtag Afghans, which the 1890s NW Frontier range provide for the matchlockmen and command - for spearmen MUT6 spear armed figure would be fine. Talking of which, I need to request some Afghan tribesmen armed with spears, which then extends the existing 1880s ones back to 1790s and probably earlier.
Mark
I'm hoping that "a long gun is a long gun" in 10mm.
My eyesight has seen better days, so a chap with crazy hair pointing an enfield is barely distinguishable from the great^15 Grandpa wielding a matchlock.
I'm still undecided on base size.
A brief measuring expedition sows that I could accommodate 30mm square or 40mm square.
I use 16" square pizza boxes for storage.
Allowing a bit of gappage, 30mm square could accommodate 144 stands, while 40mm square cuts that to 81.
QuoteMy eyesight has seen better days, so a chap with crazy hair pointing an enfield is barely distinguishable from the great^15 Grandpa wielding a matchlock.
When on the table and in a game, I honestly couldn't tell what they are armed with, so this solution works well for me!
I suppose with bases, it really comes down to how many figures you want to buy and paint. 40mm square is pretty much double the the area of a 30mm square base (16 vs 9) so with 30mm bases you need about half as many figures, and you can play in a smaller area. The downside is that distances become more critical and an accidental nudge can cause problems. Also with bigger bases they look more like a unit.
Most of my 10mm Pre 1850s is on 40mm squares, but for Colonial and WWI I have used 30mm squares and for WWII I've gone with 50x30mm rectangles - which I suspect doesn't help you at all. Probably worth putting a few sample units together on the different size bases and seeing what they look like.
And doing some maths on how many figures you would need for the various forces, which might determine which way you go due to the effort to paint up the larger units.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 09 January 2020, 11:03:39 PM
Off at a tangent, but interesting that you mentioned Goblins as proxies..
My initial toe in the water around exploration and the Indian ocean involved Dragon Rampant - with warbands having options on some of their local myths and legends.
After drawing up 15 - 18 lists, and painting the first four I figured I'd require a proxy for all the more obscure or less civic cultures.
This the UGOH (Universal Goblin Orc Horde) was born.
You want Golden Horde, we have Golden Horde - but they ride on wolves.
Ayuthayya Siam? we have those too, but they're a bit green.
A good approach!
I've found Lizardmen useful for this too, particularly in Colonial eras.
These are the two maps I created to show the relative locations of the many forces detailed in Irregular Wars.
The first is a European map, this is stylistically similar to the one used for the cover of the rules
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2KStdtQv7pEbxPkFxpdTkYYmRY4LUH1gyx_TB6vNNcMTr3pWtcp8Yp8cb_FRe3njBWYpmWWK3jaPrrj3t0v5nJlNb4zYBiVml0RsbO87EFloA55mJcdNL9kz9pplBTc9QUeL2SpyMS9a5TdR1D4eI1tGn6GINIYXx32XKS5OdmlXUIEu26pRcNftLUVZDwsIFCUGBX1gRJ11auAAGXG1qseKjNeh5ZPhK9l8Sh4cpQwlbf-DSEH8R4pVMD123_DtU0WqR8gwBQBKUt0dw4DDKmGat7WoJqErHFreeW7SsdDVBElvkJHCHgiEmVfVhzI6IxUafO6nF-4wd3SEZmxBFM5fozh5o9MdzXAyA9FOf7H8p8yPHIbz5BN9w-GZd8laR0PADch9ov3EDXmASq9U_COjPRdLS3oaBQyDtiDTeLs5rhQy9XRfirPBIv371PiER2WnFuC8U-HBe1uFqfaqCSUOSDj_mnoE2utvyES9NyqQfGV8ldjusO03zTz_LrIqfpFKv0_xv-cKobFemyxLHOZnp4F4k0FN2YJDfa-UQtgRIixxZcvwjFQWeZS5FgjrCZYaNDxk_s-E4w1vGga2pKt65z7ETU8dTaLOcZo5OR1ONU62C3rtgpMECusHJWnMY-KY6QCwN9AR_NIreQnd0QiNy4Q71KBiSieVnU07Ej_R5JoJ17gncYeQ2x4O0Tm8-V9G8dcQk57QlJZ_MJBL6qVIztetzhnCukbKa7K9VORCA-KC=w1932-h1330-no)
The second is a 17th Century world map - there are probably ones I am less sure about location on here, so any corrections are welcome
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RgMBDhZNV2BVGqFGVgTZ21jzenXqrI-EBnNnCc6ZA1chNOXbGGcuR2OeFAlPh5sEFBWCUHNSwdLcVEGrgTcV8lk0vYNc59a5ZtXkN8I1y_CxVkSvP55PETeIZSZwaYLlHI5bbxzlSXOaPAKULMK_x2peVhY3Uoa5AdvRktbmzc9fIXuEe3IBRPJlK_EOkBMCye7ZxMvXbCL-xkMS-lV5BBOjD89LsnSwGahEqJd46TUncuX818ADujdeJyoWyQBC8JpBQvRQCMBLbA86uJn5e6-qT93Ep-vJ7nWxC-cjsOCodFPZV2gBvfTJcqTQHIp7XhuykkF6rJCABaHBSKCJyuDz1Av4TxT1vr_5XDgi2AGfI_ltPdIPCzFFkdT97vJOEHyDp4YQiW0jRqDJ-Ln9ynRtDX90aBIA8YUs5YRwMgLai5L0XPvydy3uWmbKibBMkyd-FpGfhbvpvW3MMVkefFfQFPOMstDjeNqjzyXJmEMzhtIvZO2DkgXxrI1Sem5rwZWI4VzQkLZzp2NSVzh9D18biHddzqkUgcLt1HCOLsIFRoq8VMFlFGCSLCV3sQ8c18dgWlMfAqNxCnKPpOYetlfPjGgQAicSRzjnUCFadiHRbD80tR4it6x3JnX0Hvuh2ogfqWFZDPaag73Kdyo9m941xLvdi5Z01znD2Q90hEAH2I4S1vEAMk60aEdJ_HFkjVLCDdzdcGX3H8Kt3kW_pS6HRBTntYgZKD4gxi8laiZG4AGk=w1276-h795-no)
Excellent Maps.
On the world map I thin you have the Songhai and East Africans Transposed.
South America, I'm less secure on on my locations, but think that the Mapuche should be furthest south.
Your placement of the European colonists around Java and South China seas is impressive - spot on.
Such a map has its limitations, I'm thinking of the Colonial Portuguese and to a lesser extent the eastern pirates.
To borrow form Blackadder's Flash "Whoof!! Where Haven't we been?".
A quick skim over the Pendraken Catalogue late last night showed up a few useful generic figures.
Classical, Greek: Javelinmen GRE10 - A chap with a tunic and a javelin
Classical Indian: Forest Tribes AI11 - Bow and Javelins with lovely headdresses - potential proxies for South American Amazon, Caribbean.
Classical Indian: Indian Archer AI9 - Less flamboyant headgear - lower class archers for Amazonian and Caribbean.
Punic, Carthage: Light Archer ACR4 - Bare head, tunic and bow.
Punic, Carthage: Numidian Cavalry ACR7 - for cultures who preferred their young warriors on horseback.
E. Imperial, Sarmatian: Unarmoured Lancers ASA4 - Guy on horse with long pointed stick, very flexible - wears trousers, which may limit re-use if you're really fussy.
There are a host of useful figures among the Dark Age Arabs, Medieval Mongols and Late Europeans and Renaissance Ranges.
18th Century - Some useful figures in the Pirate, French and Indian and '45 Jacobite ranges.
A few later figures may prove useful.
19th Centure: Americas - Plains War
Colonial: Mutineers, Zulus, Sudanese and NW Frontier
4 sets with potential, but no photographs - can anybody assist?
19th Century, Americas, War of the Pacific: Ragged Foot SAP4
WW1 East Africa: Ruga Ruga NEA2
WW1 East Africa: Masai Spears NEA3
WW1 East Africa: Porters NEA4
Incas are in Peru, they're way up too high on that map. Amazonians should be a bit more east too. Mapuche should cover Chile / Argentina.
Thanks Nick and Steve for the corrections. Not sure how I transposed the East Africans and Songai on the world map, and got them right on the European one. The South Americans need a fair bit of moving around - unfortunately I can't find the editable version of the map, so will keep looking for that for a while, rather than having to re-key all the names on the original.
Steve, good work on digging around the figure ranges - I forgotten about the Indian Mutiny ones, but they have a lot who look like generically useful figures.
Mapuche, only conquered by the Chileans in 1880, when they brought machine guns!
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 10 January 2020, 11:00:09 AM
4 sets with potential, but no photographs - can anybody assist?
19th Century, Americas, War of the Pacific: Ragged Foot SAP4
WW1 East Africa: Ruga Ruga NEA2
WW1 East Africa: Masai Spears NEA3
WW1 East Africa: Porters NEA4
Masai
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2784/4446679800_654a4a0c09.jpg)
Rugga Rugga
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4938245892_cbb3b2a747.jpg)
Porters
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/Maenoferren/DSCF2182.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc31/Maenoferren/CopyofDSCF2322.jpg)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Thanks Grumpy.
A picture certainly does illustrate a thousand words.
The Masai being in full regalia - masks 'n' all limits their flexibility a little, through I see them making fine shaman figures (Alas just one or none per army required).
I think I can convince myself that those rugga rugga are weilding matchlocks.
That fills in a lot of gaps among the west and east Africans, and may supply some good cimaroons for the Americas.
The Porters probably need a bit of conversion if they're to travel beyond the Congo basin.
Maybe a bit of crude carving of those rather neat packs would do the trick.
A couple of pack llamas wouldn't hurt either.
Love the maps and as others have said, the Songhai empire was in West Africa. For the Songhai troops a mix of the Afghan range and Indian Mutiny figures would work well, based upon my time living in Nigeria.
Glad you like the maps Steve - I will have to find the original and correct the world one.
And thanks all for the pointers for the figures - an order for half a dozen or so packs placed today.
A huge Thank You to everybody who has contributed to this thread.
I'm now convinced that 10mm has the figure ranges for Irregular Wars.
I also think that figures smaller than 15mm provide potential for attractive diorama bases - the doet of thing that players of Impetus rave about.
I'm currently wavering on a couple of decisions.
30mm square bases or 40mm square.
This is the big one - and it boils down to "Bigger armies or more variety of armies".
It'll be a personal choice.
Smaller bases don't necessarily represent a great economy, since purchasing figures by the 30 (or 15 mounted) may generate a lot of unused surplus.
I'm entertaining the idea of marking unit strength with a 7mm mini-die, and worry that this might consume too much of a 30mm square base.
I can help myself by "crunching the numbers" on base count for various armies.
Some of the subcontinental Indian forces, for example, could yield a massive army if the commander opted to go heavy on the levy.
An all-Spanish Conquistador force would be tiny by comparison.
Which armies to collect.
This is the open ended one.
I've already covered Portugal and the East Indies with a different scale and ruleset.
I don't necessarily see a benefit in repeating the exercise with smaller figures.
There are plenty of compelling alternatives, each with its own distinct character.
I think I'll return to painting the lead mountain while I contemplate those two big decisions.
Don't forget that Leon is usually happy to do part packs etc, at a slight premium
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15349.msg223223.html#msg223223 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15349.msg223223.html#msg223223)
Quote from: paulr on 12 January 2020, 01:24:51 AM
Don't forget that Leon is usually happy to do part packs etc, at a slight premium
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15349.msg223223.html#msg223223 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15349.msg223223.html#msg223223)
I think I had seen that before, noted it and then totally forgotten it.
Many thanks for a very handy reminder.
Hello
Just another thought, how about Vietnam porter's for Asian armies.
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/2982/VM16.jpg)
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 13 January 2020, 09:33:18 PM
Hello
Just another thought, how about Vietnam porter's for Asian armies.
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/2982/VM16.jpg)
Excellent idea.
Takes me back to my 15mm Malays, when I co-opted a bunch of Vietnamese civilians to serve as my village elder / shaman.
I think I've IDd a few genuine gaps that would provide for a number of Irregular Wars forces.
In the Americas:
Woodland Indians with Bow.
Woodland indians with club/tomahawk. (Shot are very much the minority at this point in time)
A native american with a "long spear" - appears among the southern Mexicans, Mississippi Indians and (with pikes) among the Mapuche.
An Africa:
An "Armoured lancer", I interpret this as the type with both horse and man in padded armour.
Among the maritime Europeans
Figures to fill out the "adventurer" and "volunteer" bases.
A mix of armed gentlemen in their finery, lower classes as militia and armed sailors.
Arms should include cold steel, pistols and arquebus.
Foot soldiers with polearms / long spears.
These had certain advantages over pikes in the new world.
Hello
Maybe for the African cavalry you could proxy the TB line Mongol Heavy cavalry when they become available:-
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1504/8570/products/24_1_46fe2de3-5ec7-40e5-a145-660fe10fe62e_1024x1024.jpg?v=1476292669)
(https://i.imgur.com/VyAirdB.jpg)
(https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/africa/images/moissi-empire-1892.jpg)
Agree with you about the native Americans.
For the Maritime Europeans, I imagine you've had a look at the Pirates, Early 16th C. English/Scots, Elizabethans (Irish?) and ECW (the pikes are shorter with these.)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Those Mongol Lancers are quite a good match for the Africans (Splendid looking chaps - superb hats)
I suspect two difficulties:
The elaborate hats - headgear is awfully distinctive on bunches of 10 and 6mm figures.
I'm guesing that the Mongols carry a bow and quiver - I'm rather rubbish at filing those details off.
I'm wondering whether the Sarmatian or the Late Roman cataphracts might be an easier conversion.
I had a quick nose about all the ranges you mentioned for the Maritime Europeans.
There are essentially three grades of fighter who don't quite fit.
Gentleman Adventurers: The leaders and financial backers of an expedition, and their bodyguards.
I'm thinking of men in fine clothes (Some of the League of Ausberg range would paint up nicely for this) equipped with a mix of swords, halberds, pistols and the occasional long-arm.
Volunteers: Soldiers of Fortune, or the sailors from the adventuring fleet.
The pirates aren't bad, but would ideally be mixed with a few other types.
Some of the recent Irish Elizabethans might be useful as might some dismounted dragoons.
Once again I'd expect a mix of weapons: Swords, muskets, halberds or half-pikes.
I wouldn't expect these to have much in the way of armour - through some volunteers might be well equipped, and a bunch of jolly jack tars might be rather scruffy.
Specific footsoldier types.
There's often a small number of reliable units with spears, polearms, pike or sword and buckler.
Pike or sword and buckler are easy finds.
Spears could be a cut-down pike.
The tricky one is the polearms company.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 17 January 2020, 01:29:58 AM
I'm guessing that the Mongols carry a bow and quiver - I'm rather rubbish at filing those details off.
Is it worth considering a Dremmel/mini-drill and some appropriate sized burrs, Steve ?
A bit of green stuff for repairs ?
Cheers - Phil
Is that how you repair your fingers, with green stuff :-\ ;D ;D ;D
Mmm, those lancers look rather classy. I modelled some of my imperial Abyssinian army on those, in fact, using IM figures for the Negus' guards and Pendraken Sarmatians for feudal nobles.
Quote from: paulr on 17 January 2020, 08:52:46 AM
Is that how you repair your fingers, with green stuff :- ;D ;D ;D
No, Paul.
I use red Sylmasta A+B and Zap 'superglue'....that way, you don't notice the blood. ;)
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 17 January 2020, 08:43:56 AM
Is it worth considering a Dremmel/mini-drill and some appropriate sized burrs, Steve ?
A bit of green stuff for repairs ?
Cheers - Phil
Could be my lack of skill at fault here.
I have a Dremel type tool, but my efforts at cleaning casts using the burrs have been rather destructive.
There's generally a loss of control, and a deep gash across the surface of the cast.
I've also not found a reliable method to secure the subject figure at 10mm type scales.
There's the danger of squeezing the life out of it.
Wot I do, Steve.....
Is stick the model to a wine cork with a blob of green stuff, whether I'm working on a dolly to make a new model, or converting a metal master.
Once it's set, the cork's perfect as something to hold.....And if I need to, I can 'Dremmel away' to my heart's content.
Cheers - Phil
Two probs there Phil, cant afford wine with corks, and I'd get an attack of greens if I used corks....
Quote from: Techno on 17 January 2020, 02:20:01 PM
Wot I do, Steve.....
Is stick the model to a wine cork with a blob of green stuff, whether I'm working on a dolly to make a new model, or converting a metal master.
Once it's set, the cork's perfect as something to hold.....And if I need to, I can 'Dremmel away' to my heart's content.
Cheers - Phil
Tip much appreciated Phil.
The forum has been extremely helpful to me since I joined.
Always useful, always gratefully received.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 17 January 2020, 05:15:00 PM
The forum has been extremely helpful to me since I joined.
Always useful, always gratefully received.
Seconded :)
Quote from: ianrs54 on 17 January 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Two probs there Phil, cant afford wine with corks, and I'd get an attack of greens if I used corks....
:)
As far as corks are concerned....
I buy packs of 30 of them a time from anywhere that does 'home brew' equipment stuff.....
Think the last time they were about £3 for the 30.
Next time, I'll probably order them from somewhere online.
Cheers - Phil
Ta La
Not dead - just sleeping.
I'm maintaining a level of interest here, just not posting much.
I have taken a deep dive through the lists and mapped out who fought who.
By dividing the world (at least, the bits that might interest me) into 3 regions and 8 subregions, I found a few trends.
The "Portuguese hemisphere" typically has one or two colonists and a broader range of locals.
Colonists tend to fight locals and each other.
There is friction between locals, but on a fairly limited basis.
The "Spanish Hemisphere" has most subregions with one type of local, but several colonists.
Mexico and surrounds is the exception with plenty of local conflict but just the Spanish arriving by boat.
(The rest of the Colonial powers preferred to take their loot direct from the Spanish fleet, making the Caribbean a fascinating location.
I've also started a new job, and the time involved is distracting me from playtesting and matching units to Pendraken's catalogue.
It's been a long time...
So here's a summary of "existing ranges that you can use".
After splitting the world and dividing the lists into "theatres", I've decided to focus on my favourite proto-colonial setting.
The Indian Ocean in the century or so following Da Gama's rounding the cape.
This can involve:
Portuguese
Hollanders
Tribal African
West African
Arab
Moghul
Rajput
Vijayanagara
East Indies
Eastern Pirates.
You can push your luck a bit and shoehorn in:
Ottomans (In East Africa)
Savafid Persians (Ormuz and Persian gulf)
Ming Chinese
Japan
Korea
I'mm concentrate on the core nations for now.
Portugal and Hollanders can be supplied forom the Renaissance ranges.
I've a feeling that the wealthier members of expeditions could be supplied by the League of Ausberg command packs.
Both have a range of colonial allies - Headhunter / Blowpipe native scouts are the only notable gap.
Tribal Africans probably need to be Zulu with some mixed in Masai.
I cannot find archer or matchlock figures to fill out the shooter roles.
Probably use a chieftain as a shaman.
East Africans
Tend to be civic (Potential form Ottoman and Arab ranges) or Tribal - Mahdists provide a contrast to the usual Zulu fighters.
These have the heavy lancer option (I think classical cataphracts and a bit of work will fit the bill).
Arab
Dark Age Arabs and some azab figures form Renaissance Ottomans will fit the bill.
Moghul, Rajput, Vijayanagara
These three Indian powers have a lot of common components.
The foot units of the Indian mutiny range provide levy, swordsmen and matchlocks. Archers are absent, Arab figures, (Or classical Indians) might be substituted.
Elephants from the Mutiny range, otherwise it's about making the best of the classical indians again.
Imagination is required for the disnctive mounted components.
The Ottoman range provide something suitable for Moghul riders.
Cataphracts (Classical again) might be the best stand-ins for Rajput lancers.
For artillery, take your pick from large Western style pieces, or old Ottoman bombards.
East Indies
It's tricky to match the warrior garb of sarong, long shield, turban and kris / javelin - some artistic license required here.
Most available figures with Turban are pretty well wrapped up aganst the sun, most with loincloths are distinctly sub-saharan.
Mahdist horse might make the best match for the sultans cavalry.
Elephant will be an Indian Mutiny range.
The difficulty in finding blowpipe scouts is noted above.
Eastern Pirates
Quite a variety here, I tend to visualise these as the Bugis or Sulu, so would expect a very East Indies appearance.
With less focus on sarong and long shield you may be able to co-opt some Indian mutineers and Arabs.
If you're prepared to base your pirates a bit further North, you can throw in some Japanese - thought I'd go for the peasant figures as opposed to the more distinctive samurai and ashigaru.
Conclusion:
Pendraken certainly provide plenty of figures to enable Portuguese and Dutch explorers to fight encounters in South Africa, East Africa, Arabia and all of India.
It's a bit of a push to provide forces for the East Indies.
Hi
Good list of proxies. For Tribal African archers you could look at Aztec commoner with bow.
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4203/AZT8.JPG)
You could also use the rugga rugga for arquebusiers.
You mention West and East Africans but since you mention heavy cavalry I'll assume you mean West. East Africans wouldn't have cavalry but would be a heavily Arabisised elite with tribal auxiliaries. Both covered by other proxies. You could also look at the Sudanese Ghulam types from the Arab range
You could have a look at the newer Sarmatian cataphracts for heavy cavalry
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4866/ASA6.jpg)
The East Indies are a problem. Long shields are for more primitive types like dyaks so maybe Indians could be used. Turbans aren't worn by all and sometimes trousers are worn with the sarong and if the weather drops down to a chilly 30 degrees shirt and bolero could be worn. I'd use a big mixture, almost like your described pirates. Not much to suggest for the blowpipe type, maybe the Sudanese javelinman from the Arab range with the spearhead snipped off the javelin set in amongst a lot of greenery 🙂
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/145/AB4.jpg)
Probably not much of a help but good luck.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
The Arab cavalry from the new Persian range (PER13) looks pretty versatile. I've a pack of them in my painting queue to add to my medieval Saracens. But they'd potentially fit as some irregular cavalry for your period:
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4906/PER13.jpg)
Thanks, some great suggestions there.
I think where it's difficult to match an infantry type, employing a mixture of "near enough" types provides a a better look than using all one single type.
We've been messing around with these rules a fair bit over the past year or two but never really did much with the original period of the rules.
I had a number of left over ECW & late 17C stuff from other projects and hit on the rules as a simple way of using them up and having short games in periods we didn't do. Almost skirmish but not quite meant that we could push boundaries & reality a bit.
We decided very quickly that we would update the rules to work from about 1660 on to about 1720 and concentrate on the Americas. We ditched all the silly stuff such as parsons and priests and the random army lists - I can see how others would like them but we don't.
To cut a long story short we ended up extending them to the FIW as well and now we both have quite a lot of varied forces for Spanish, English (later British), French, American, Pirates, Cimmaroons, Woodland Natives etc. I've got a pile of Conquistador & S. American stuff yet to paint - taking us back to the rules without our additions/changes. We have just started a simple campaign in the FIW and the battles will be fought using our version of IW.
You could look at some Irregular Miniatures stuff for pre-gunpowder American Natives and they also do a quite varied pack of Pirates. Similar in size to Pendraken but more loosely sculpted.
Period term for escaped slaves and others living outside the law. They could be quite organised and large in number.
Quote from: fred. on 30 June 2020, 10:20:30 AM
Period term for escaped slaves and others living outside the law. They could be quite organised and large in number.
Cimarons: Got the best riddims.
(https://img.discogs.com/701Yooi8jXp94OubFZElm0J5gcc=/600x299/smart/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/A-53889-1461868154-2265.jpeg.jpg)
The Camerons are a whole different fearsome clan:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QMoQBr2YfWY/Vy2jVr0QHII/AAAAAAAAJIo/--U4UmmhQawJh4tEO3s5uG58LITQwvIUwCLcB/s1600/Queen%2527s%2BOwn%2BCameron%2BHighlanders.jpg)
Cameroons - deadly in the box.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7JNUTD765Fo/VBr9ROgSUyI/AAAAAAAAHV0/1iJ-uFd4xOA/s1600/FOOT_Cameron_1990_Milla.jpg)
And don't get me started with:
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/delish-macaroons-horizontal-239-1555626037.jpg)
It is in the army lists and refers to escaped slaves who have banded together, often allying themselves with the local native peoples in resisting the Spanish.
Originally it seems to have referred to their ferocity in defending their settlements - it is also a Spanish name for the wild sheep of the mountains who can get very aggressive to people during the rut.
It is spelled in various ways and became a term sometimes applied to independent African communities in non-Hispanic areas too.
Despite its similarity to other Spanish terms relating to race it doesn't seem to have originally been a derogatory name.
Thanks Fred & TTT, learnt something today :)