I'm not an Ancients wargamer but, when I see some lovely figures, I am tempted now and again. Anyhoo. Elephants. I'm no expert (hence asking you guys) but it appears to me that they could be as dangerous to their own side as they were to the enemy. So, how effective were they? How were they used?
I war game in 10mm and 15mm and looking at the various models, I see that elephants can be unarmoured or armoured. In addition to the driver, there are usually some other guys; some sitting on the back, others in their own little non-ivory tower and all invariably armed with a very long spear and/or a bow and arrows. Some examples in 10 and 15mm:-
https://pendraken.co.uk/ancients/punic-wars-220-146bc/carthaginian/ (https://pendraken.co.uk/ancients/punic-wars-220-146bc/carthaginian/)
https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_130&product_id=213 (https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_130&product_id=213)
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Xyston/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3_13_76&products_id=286 (http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Xyston/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3_13_76&products_id=286)
https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_146&product_id=499 (https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_146&product_id=499)
But, regardless of how well attired the elephant is, it seems to me that it's role is to simply charge the enemy and be a terrible stampy, stompy machine and the guys on top are just its own personal security guards. Is that it? Did they have extra troops on foot to support their 'on board' bodyguard? (e.g., like tanks with their dis-mounted supporting infantry)
Apart from, say, having cart loads of buns or cookies or a box of mice to hand, how did the other side defend against them? I understand the Republican Romans learned to open up ranks, then as the elephants ran through the gaps, a few intrepid chaps jumped out with axes and had a chop at their hamstrings. However, I also came across these two examples of an anti-elephant wagon:-
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Xyston/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3_12_45&products_id=330&zenid=cka6hr6hn18ptrf8klq6e5q1q0 (http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Xyston/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3_12_45&products_id=330&zenid=cka6hr6hn18ptrf8klq6e5q1q0)
https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_151&product_id=502 (https://www.forgedinbattle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_161_151&product_id=502)
Was it actually used or is it one of these Archemedes type inventions (like Da Vinci's tank that didn't actually leave the drawing board)? I just can't imagine it being practical. Are there any war-games rules that include these? For a start, being a wagon, it only goes backwards and forwards and not sideways. And you would have to be very lucky to set up a group of these to coincide with the exact point on the battlefield and direction of the enemy elephant attack (unless you had the aforementioned supply of buns and cookies to hand to tempt the elephants in your direction). Plus, all the elephant has to do is attack side on and the wagon will surely be turned over in a trice.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 09 November 2019, 09:42:02 PM
But, regardless of how well attired the elephant is, it seems to me that it's role is to simply charge the enemy and be a terrible stampy, stompy machine and the guys on top are just its own personal security guards. Is that it? Did they have extra troops on foot to support their 'on board' bodyguard? (e.g., like tanks with their dis-mounted supporting infantry)
You forgot the Peanut firing Flying elephant, with mouse command (a la Dumbo) :)
Untrained horses are terrified of elephants so they provide an effective screen against much cavalry. I suspect even trained horses are pretty nervous around them!
Untrained infantry are prone to running in panic or staying still and getting stomped.
That's the "pro" in favour of elephants.
The "cons" are
Elephants are smart and don't like pointy sticks or loud noises .... or burning pigs ... or spiky carts with pointy things in them ... etc.
Elephants running away from such things sometimes do so through their own ranks .... which causes a certain ... untidyness :)
Elephants are expensive to acquire, train and maintain.
In terms of crew, many elephant units included light infantry to protect the elephants. Indian elephants are recorded as having 12 escorting infantry each - 3 per foot.
Flaming pigs, anti-elephant carts, skirmishers with javelins, massed crossbows, pits, chopping off the elephant's trunk (sooner you than me!!!) and various other techniques are attested in historical documents to as counters to elephants.
All that said, I do like me a heffalump army and am currently building a 10mm scale Harradrim army based around two Mumakil models, for Warmaster.
All the above, and let's also remember prestige; impressing one's own side and subjects.
Thank you very much, gentlemen. So, to sum up, their chief weapon is fear and an almost fanatical devotion to peanuts. Two! Their two chief weapons are ......
... oh no .... what have I started ... ;)
Well no one expects an inquision ;)
Quote from: ianrs54 on 10 November 2019, 10:42:29 AM
Well no one expects an inquision ;)
... or an inquisition either ;)
Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as elephants, peanuts, ruthless orthography...it's no good. Cardinal Nellie? You'll have to say it.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 10 November 2019, 01:50:02 AM
All the above, and let's also remember prestige; impressing one's own side and subjects.
You also get to hum the marching song from Jungle Book.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 10 November 2019, 01:50:02 AM
All the above, and let's also remember prestige; impressing one's own side and subjects.
Among the Islands of the East Indies, Elephants were only native to the Malay Peninsula and Sumatra (I'm not sure about Borneo).
For the rest of the Islanders, they were received as gifts of great prestige from Allies in the areas above, or Siam or India.
Once two Rajahs lined up and their young warriors had chucked the ceremonial javelins, the next step was to count the jumbos on each side.
If the enemy had significantly more, this represented his prestige, and also indicated the strength of allies he might call on.
It wasn't unusual for the outnumbered force to enter parley and offer terms as a tribuary ruler.
In general the elephants are good for:
* Frightening people, and animals.
* Breaking up undefended obstacles.
* Showing prestige.
* Providing a raised viewing platform during battle.
And if you're careless they'll raid your hunnny rations.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/d5/49/02d54950da8405e7350be76217dee14e.gif)
I'm dubious about the anti-elephant wagons in a field battle.
If they existed at all, I suspect the wagon's "spiky death bits (tm)" were carried as a field enhancement to the normal wagon train.
Easily fitted to pivots along the sides of the wagon when needed.
Here they would reinforce a wagon laager against the likes of Hannibal or Pyrrhos.
If a force wished to block a narrow pass, the wagons might also be useful.
A situation where a couple fo elephants would easily flip pver a wagon without the spikes.
The anti-elephant carts were escorted by javelin armed skirmishers, a troop type often used as a counter to elephants.
Take a nice solid cart (I'm thinking Hussite War Wagons not Constable's "The Haywain") stud it with spikes and mount firepots on moveable poles. The aim is not to bring it into contact with an elephants but to place it in front of the elephant so said elephant turns aside, exposing it's flank to the skirmishers javelins. The javelineers fire (probably not doing significant damage) and the pain maddened elephant, assailed from outwith it's main field of vision, decides "sod this for a game of soldiers" and runs directly away from the weird, disturbing spikey, burny things and the nasty, shouty men with stinging pointy things and runs straight over the soft squishy things behind it .... or it's mahout smacks a chisel into it's neck and kills it. Either way, heffalump crisis averted.
Typical Roman overthinking in my opinion. On a par with "Hmm, our soldiers are good but our sailors no so much so. Let's take a bridge to sea with us so we can fight naval battles like we're on land."
But what about the Woozles?
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 November 2019, 05:39:42 PM
The anti-elephant carts were escorted by javelin armed skirmishers, a troop type often used as a counter to elephants.
Take a nice solid cart (I'm thinking Hussite War Wagons not Constable's "The Haywain") stud it with spikes and mount firepots on moveable poles. The aim is not to bring it into contact with an elephants but to place it in front of the elephant so said elephant turns aside, exposing it's flank to the skirmishers javelins. The javelineers fire (probably not doing significant damage) and the pain maddened elephant, assailed from outwith it's main field of vision, decides "sod this for a game of soldiers" and runs directly away from the weird, disturbing spikey, burny things and the nasty, shouty men with stinging pointy things and runs straight over the soft squishy things behind it .... or it's mahout smacks a chisel into it's neck and kills it. Either way, heffalump crisis averted.
Typical Roman overthinking in my opinion. On a par with "Hmm, our soldiers are good but our sailors no so much so. Let's take a bridge to sea with us so we can fight naval battles like we're on land."
That actually makes a lot of sense, if you can get the carts to where they're needed, and your draft teams don't bottle it when they see the jumbos coming.
I generally think the flaming pig has a lot of advantages. (Though not if you're the pig)..
I love the smell of bacon in the morning (Primus Pila Kilgore).
Alas, since gout turned up bacon has been off the menu for me. :'(
I don't think you have your draught teams hitched up at that point. I think we're talking static defence not a mobile fortress. You park them where you expect the main enemy thrust.
Of course this is all conjecture. Despite the belief of some friends and family to the contrary, I am not actually old enough to have seen them in action :D
The pigs do seem to have been remarkably effective.
A couple of videos to add to this old topic featuring the types of war elephants the Carthaginians may have employed in battle, how they were used and how to counter them. Not being an Ancients player, I wonder how many Ancients rules include any of these specific counter measures. Another side issue that occurred to me was what were the ships like that were used to transport these animals by sea? Not quite an Ancients LCT equivalent but they must have been rather large.
I see some mention of treatment by rules.
I've been more a reader than a player of Ancients rules.
Treatment of elephants seems to follow two tracks.
WRG, and its followers, right up until including Hail Caesar, and including DBA / DBM.
Treat the elephant as a prime fighting unit, usually allow its deployment in units.
Penalise it against specific anti-elephant weapon systems, and advantage it against other mounted.
Special rules cover its morale effect, and what happens when your own elephants morale fails.
These often involve rather specific instructions for the direction and distance of the elephant's rampage.
More recent rules like To the strongest, and Spartans and Successors advance the concept of the elephant screen.
We know that small contingents of elephants affected battles out of all proportion to their numbers.
The elephant screen (Observed frequently in successor battles) is a combination of light infantry and elephants in an "open order".
The elephants serve as protection against the light infantry's worst enemies (cavalry) and provide a rally point.
I certainly find it easier to imagine the elephant screen, as opposed to elephants acting like big grey warbands.
We have reports of both usages of elephants Steve.
Elephant screens were useful to stop cavalry as Seleucus did to Demetrios Poliorcetes at Ipsus.
Pyrrhus on the other hand seems to have used his elephants and elephant guards as a solid formation, a sort of organic battering ram. With, it has to be said, mixed results.
Strength and Honour allows elephant units to be used in either way, deployed as a unit or split into two skirmishing support lines attached to other units.
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 10 November 2019, 05:49:48 PMBut what about the Woozles?
I have a stand in my Winnie The Pooh army, counts as a lurker!