All,
After my recent test games using Blitzkrieg Commander in 6mm, I'm hot to play some Western Desert/North Africa games. I've almost finished Mersey's book on wargaming the subject, and Featherstone's is on the way, but I want to get an order in as soon as possible and need some help to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
My intent is to play from the beginning (first frontier fights between Brits and Italians) all the way up to 2nd El Alamein (not really interested in Torch and after).
I feel like I'm okay with Germans and Italians, and British armored cars, but I'm confused about British armor. From what I can tell, British armored formations begin with Vickers light tanks, some Cruisers (A9, A10, or A11s?), and Matilda IIs.
-Assuming that is true, what is the proportion of each type (i.e., 45% Vickers, 35% Cruisers, and 20% Matilda IIs)? And if it's not true, what types should I have?
-Any idea on the dates of the various Cruiser (A-series) tanks being upgraded and arriving in combat units (i.e., A9s until Dec 1940, A10s until June 1941, etc...)?
-Any idea on the dates the Crusaders begin reaching the frontline units? Did Crusaders replace the A-series Cruisers, or were they serving side by side? What proportion of British armored forces were made up of Crusaders?
-Same questions, except for M-3 "Honeys."
-Same questions, except for M-3 Lees/Grants.
Essentially, what I'm trying to figure out is, when do the British tank 'upgrades' occur, and what proportionality do they occupy, so that I can build my forces out. I plan to build generic infantry and armored units, but I'd like them modelled on the overall force structures from real life, so I'd like to be able to plan something like:
The overall British force has ten armored stands in 1940. They are comprised of 5 Vickers units, 3 A10 Cruiser units, and 2 Matilda II units.
In January 1941 that changes to 6 Crusader units, 2 A11 Cruiser units, and 2 Matilda units.
In July 1941 that changes to 5 Crusader units, 1 A3 Cruiser unit, and 4 Honey units.
In Dec 1941 that changes to 4 Crusader units, 3 Honey units, and 2 M-3 Lee/Grant units.
I just made all that up, but that's ultimately what I'm trying to figure out. Also, when did the British get 6-pdr ATGs, and did they completely replace 2-pdrs, or did Commonwealth forces still keep some in action (including the 2-pdr portees)?
Any other hints, tips, guidance, or advice on wargaming the desert war is also heartily solicited and welcomed!
Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance, I am grateful for any and all help.
V/R,
Jack
The British had both Infantry tanks and Cruisers - these were always in separate formations.
Infantry tanks were initially Matildas, changing to Valentines later.
Cruisers tended to be around in groups
Early on, Vickers, A9, A10 and A13. If you are going for 10 tank formations, then 3 vickers, 1 A9, 2 A10, and 4 A13s would be a fair mix
The next switch was a mix of Crusaders and Grants, or M3 Honeys. Honeys tended to be in their own formations, Crusaders and Grants around 50:50
Later Sherman's were added to Crusader and Grant formations, and by this time Crusaders would be getting 6pdr versions.
I'll have to look up dates - I seem to recall that the lists in BKC are pretty good for introduction dates.
This is very much a general overview. And different formations did different things - not least driven by losses and the availability of replacements.
This is a page I put together for my attempts to model 3 RTR http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishDesert.html
A good summary from Fred
Below is my Spearhead list for the armour of 7th Armoured Division in December 1940. Each stand is a platoon. The units had originally been Cruiser or light tanks but squadrons/companies/troops/platoons were exchanged so that each regiment had a mixture.
7th Armoured Brigade 210
Brigade Headquarters: 22
HQ: 1 HQ Stand in 15cwt truck 6
HQ Def: 1 A.10 Tank 10
Recon: 2 Scout Cars 6
1st Battalion, Royal Tank Regiment
Battalion Headquarters: 62
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
1 A.9 CS Tank 8
B Company, with:
1 A.9 Tank 9
2 Light Mk VI Tanks 10
A, C Companies, each with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 30
8th Hussars
Regimental Headquarters: 63
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
C Squadron, with:
1 A.10 Tank 10
2 A.9 Tanks 18
A, B Squadrons, each with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 30
3rd Hussars
Regimental Headquarters: 63
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
B Squadron, with:
1 A.10 Tank 10
2 A.9 Tanks 18
A, C Squadrons, each with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 30
4th Armoured Brigade 237
Brigade Headquarters: 22
HQ: 1 HQ Stand in 15cwt truck 6
HQ Def: 1 A.10 Tank 10
Recon: 2 Scout Cars 6
7th Hussars
Regimental Headquarters: 54
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
A Squadron, with:
1 A.9 Tank 9
2 Light Mk VI Tanks 10
B, C Squadrons, each with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 30
2nd Battalion, Royal Tank Regiment
Battalion Headquarters: 88
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
1 A.9 CS Tank 8
A Company, with:
3 A.13 Tanks 33
B Company, with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 15
C Company, with:
3 A.9 Tanks 27
6th Battalion, Royal Tank Regiment
Battalion Headquarters: 73
1 Light Mk VI HQ Tank 5
1 A.10 CS Tank 8
A Company, with:
3 A.10 Tanks 30
B, C Companies, each with:
3 Light Mk VI Tanks 30
Yes, thank you, I love you guys, very helpful!
Fred - Thanks for the overview, and I will definitely be digging into your 3RTR OOB!
Paul - Dude, that OOB for 7th Armoured Division in Dec 1940 is exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for!
Again, I'm not going to be following strict OOBs, I'm going to go more 'representative,' so that I can do what I want, but I do want it to feel right/look right. With that in mind, I kind of want to use one stand=one battalion, but then it will quickly become apparent how few panzers the Germans actually had in the desert... Even adding in some Italian M13/40s and Semoventes, it's hardly the hordes of tanks we dream about putting on the table top (and outnumbered by the Brits, at that!).
Thanks again guys, and if you've got anything else, please add it.
V/R,
Jack
Don't forget the L3/33 and the 'mighty' M11/39 ;)
Gruppo Carristi Babini 1940
Gruppo Headquarters 348
(Regular)
Gruppo Headquarters Company: 11
HQ: 1 HQ Stand / Truck 6
Recon: 1 SMG Motorcycle Stand 6
1° Medium Tank Battalion, with:
(Regular)
Battalion Headquarters: 72
HQ: 1 M11/39 Tank 8
3 Tank Companies, each with:
3 M11/39 Tanks 72
3° Medium Tank Battalion, with:
(Regular)
Battalion Headquarters: 81
HQ: 1 M13/40 Tank 9
3 Tank Companies, each with:
3 M13/40 Tanks 81
21° & 60° Light Tank Battalions, each with:
(Green)
Battalion Headquarters: 56
HQ: 1 L3/33 Tank 4
3 Light Tank Companies, each with:
3 L3/33 Light Tanks 36
60° Motorcycle Bersaglieri Battalion, with:
(Regular)
Battalion Headquarters: 86
HQ: 1 HQ Motorcycle Stand 6
Recon: 1 SMG Motorcycle Stand 6
Support: 2 65/17 IG Stands / Trucks 12
3 Motorcycle Companies, each with:
3 Motorcycle Rifle Stands 54
1 Motorcycle HMG Stand 18
I/12° Artillery Battalion, with:
(Regular)
1 Medium Battalion, with: 42
3 100/17 Guns / Trucks 27
1 FOO 10
1 105/28 / Trucks 10
(attached from II/20° Artillery)
You might find this site useful for OB/TO&E
http://www.niehorster.org/index.htm
There is masses of information here http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml
The OOBs are for Battlefront, but they are easy to convert to BKC. The scenario book Benghazi |Handicap goes into even more historical detail on OOBs for the Desert War up to Operation Compass.
For more detailed TOE down to numbers of tanks in platoons, the MicroMark collection has the 7th Armoured Division (and others) throughout the desert campaign:
eg:
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/87073/B16A-British-7th-Armoured-Division-October-1940Jan-1941-North-Africa--Operation-Compass
Mark
The inital mix was A9 or A10 (not in same Rgt though) with Vickers Mk VI B or C
Next was all M3 Stuart or Crsader I/ II, some A10's may have remained initially in Crusader Rgts, and most I's were gone after Operation Crusader.
To add to the fun several Armoured Rgts used captured M13/40 during the retreat to Gazala, as did 9th Australian Division
When the Grant appeared Rgts were given Heavy (Grant) and Light(Stuart or Crusader) Squadrons, if with Stuarts there were 2 Grant Squadrons otherwise one. GRant Squadrons had 12 vehicles due to the crew requirements. This applied until after Alam Halfa
Shermans at Alamein and after were in theory in homogeneous Sherman only regiments - but - at least 1 had a Squadron of Shermans one of Crusaders and one of Grants.
At Alamein, 4th Armoured Brigade was described as light, and had 2 rgts fully equiped with Stuarts.
The Army Tank Brigades had a mix of Valentines and Matildas (til Gazala), and 23rd Armoured Brigade had entirely Valentines bar its CS tanks, which were Matildas.
Crusader III were issued as troop tanks, TC's tank remained a II, so there would be 8 in a squadron.
IanS
My goodness, thanks everyone, my cup runneth over! You guys are awesome, I've got plenty to work with to meet my needs. Let me do some scanning, reading, and digesting, and I'll get back to you... with more questions! ;)
V/R,
Jack
"I feel like I'm okay with ... but I'm confused about British armor. "
So were the British :D
Just hoon around shouting for a bit, watch most (all) the tanks break down, THEN fight the Germans with what's left and you'll do fine.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 03 October 2019, 01:25:55 PM
The inital mix was A9 or A10 (not in same Rgt though) . . .
The post from paulr above would suggest that's not the case. See his entries for the 3rd Hussars and 8th Hussars.
2nd RTR during Battleaxe have A9, A10 (both as 2pdr and CS) and A13.
Greetings
Digging into the artillery in 1940-41 is also pretty confusing.
While most RHA regiments had two batteries of two 4-gun troops, 4 RHA seems to have had two batteries (C & F) of first 3 4-gun troops (until July 1940) then two batteries of 6-gun troops then, from October 1941, 3 batteries (C, F and DD) of two 4-gun troops. This is drawn mainly from the war diary of C Battery (http://www.desertrats.org.uk/WarDiaries/C_Battery/index.htm) which refers to their initial organisation in 1940 as being on a 'pamphlet 10' basis and seemingly then shifted to a two troop structure to enable each troop to have an OP.
RA Field Regiments were supposedly two batteries of 12 guns but it seems that several, especially coming from India were two batteries of 8 guns. More work needed here.
Regards
Edward
Hi
For anyone interested Amazon are selling Barrie Pitt's excellent 3 volume history of the war in North Africa for Kindle for £1.99
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucible-War-Complete-Volumes-ebook/dp/B07WGHDLXV/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1DDZ8V7WHT5MO&keywords=barrie+pitt&qid=1570366275&s=digital-text&sprefix=Barrie+Pitt%2Caps%2C139&sr=1-3
Or free if you have something called Kindle unlimited! :)
Cheers Paul
The artillery were supposed to be tailored to fit the type of unit they were supporting so RHA being in the Armoured divisions had fewer guns than field Rgts. The Field rgts had 12 gun batteries as they were supposed to assign a battery to each brigade, but this was found to be cumbersome in France, and they were re-organised two 12 gun batteries to 3 8 gun batteries, and a rgt assigned to each Brigade, which made an 8 gun battery available to support each infantry battalion. At the same time it was decided to bring the RHA into line with field rgts. However in the African theatre till 1942 guns were no under central control, so scattered 4 gun troops were common .
IanS