Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => General Discussion => Topic started by: paulr on 01 September 2019, 02:31:21 AM

Title: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 01 September 2019, 02:31:21 AM
With the end of the painting for my and Pierre the Shy's ECW projects in sight my thoughts are turning to my next project :-\

As a group we use about a dozen different sets of rules and it takes a very special set of rules to add to that number, take a bow For King & Parliament :)
We currently play:
LandSea

I've been mulling over ideas for my next project for a while and have been thinking about something in the mid to late 1800s using Volley & Bayonet rules :-\

This gives me three broad choices:

Colonial has several possibilities:

If you have read this far through my meanderings, congratulations ;D

Can anyone point me at some good online resources for the Indian Mutiny

What other sub-periods would the figures overlap into :-\
Anglo-Sikh, Maratha, Gorkha, ...

Any other options for a new project to include in the mix?
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: FierceKitty on 01 September 2019, 02:32:36 AM
Sudan is more varied, though one ends up getting Zulus too anyway. Remember that the Mahdist adventure also involved the Egyptians (pretty army, dismal quality), the Abyssinians, and the Italians.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: John Cook on 01 September 2019, 10:47:51 AM
Quote from: paulr on 01 September 2019, 02:31:21 AM

Can anyone point me at some good online resources for the Indian Mutiny


I've been looking for something myself as the new Mutiny range has sparked interest.  There isn't very much on line that I could see.   It is a period I know next to nothing about so I might invest in some of the Osprey books.  In the meantime I've sent for a copy of Saul David's The Indian Mutiny, which at £8 for a VG 2nd Hand copy is a start. 

I also looked for typically Indian/Moghul style buildings in 10mm/1:150.  Middle Eastern ones don't really cut it and though I'm not looking for the Taj or Red Fort there is absolutely nothing that I could find.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 01 September 2019, 11:00:46 AM
Got the book on Kindle - 99p
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 01 September 2019, 12:51:51 PM
I've personally through that the Anglo Sikh wars provide great gaming potential.

On the one hand a "native" force with a regular core, drilled firearm infantry and excellent artillery.
On the other a "colonial" force with a large local component and light but mobile artillery.

Both armies have strengths and weaknesses and can face each other with relatively even odds (if that's how you like your games)
You certainly won't be mowing down rows of natives from behind a wall of mealie bags.

Wonderful variety of uniforms and colour.
Eye catching terrain.
The battles are of a manageable scale for tabletop.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: mmcv on 01 September 2019, 06:54:16 PM
Every time I read a Flashman book I think it would make a good project... Anglo Sikh would definitely be interesting as Steve says, and not one I've seen done much.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 01 September 2019, 07:39:47 PM
Anglo-Sikh is definitely an option

How appropriate are the Indian Mutiny range for the Anglo-Sikh wars?
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: John Cook on 01 September 2019, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 01 September 2019, 11:00:46 AM
Got the book on Kindle - 99p

I prefer books to Kindle.  There is a second-hand book shop I know, which has a Kindle on display.  It has been used as a target for a shotgun.  That's more or less how I feel about them too.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: mmcv on 01 September 2019, 10:26:39 PM
Quote from: John Cook on 01 September 2019, 08:37:22 PM
I prefer books to Kindle.  There is a second-hand book shop I know, which has a Kindle on display.  It has been used as a target for a shotgun.  That's more or less how I feel about them too.

Each to their own, I love my Kindle. All that knowledge and entertainment in one light, easy package without having to lug a bunch of dead trees about the place... I think for those who just care about the content and the words Kindles are great. If you're someone who enjoys the experience and aesthetic of a physical book, you won't appreciate the device. There's the odd time a physical book is preferable but vast majority of the time I'd go Kindle.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: sunjester on 02 September 2019, 07:49:44 PM
Kindled are fine for fiction but I prefer a real book for non fiction. It's too much gaff to keep flicking back to consult a map/illustration at the start/end of a book with a kindle.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: John Cook on 02 September 2019, 10:34:09 PM
Yes of course, each to their own.  It is a bit like vinyl over CDs, I suppose, or written rules over computer moderated rules.  Anyway, does anybody know a source for Indian style buildings?
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 03 September 2019, 12:56:26 AM
Or any good online sources for the Indian Mutiny ;)
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: FierceKitty on 03 September 2019, 01:06:02 AM
Modern CDs any day.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 04 September 2019, 06:10:17 AM
I've found a couple of useful sites

The Indian Mutiny Pages http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Indian%20Mutiny/Indian_mutiny_index.htm (http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Indian%20Mutiny/Indian_mutiny_index.htm)

I hope our gracious host doesn't mind me posting this one, but the figures are in quite the wrong scale ;)
The Historical Notes tab is very useful with lots of good information :)
https://www.irondukeminiatures.co.uk/ (https://www.irondukeminiatures.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: John Cook on 05 September 2019, 01:48:15 AM
Thanks for that.  The historical notes on Ironduke Miniatures page have some useful OB stuff.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 05 September 2019, 07:45:13 PM
Well the Indian Mutiny is certainly looking like a fascinating period :)

I've pulled together some various 19th C mods for Volley & Bayonet and applied them to the Wing scale variant  :-\
They seem to make sense so probably time to have a solo test game

I'm repurposing some of the Junior General top down figures I used for testing Sudan a while ago and am pulling together the forces for the second battle of Agra, October 1857 :!!

Don't tell Pierre the Shy but this is slowing down my painting of his Scots
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 09 September 2019, 08:45:26 AM
I mentioned the Indian Mutiny during our tea break in our regular group's Saturday game, the reception was not as warm as I'd hoped :(

I've glued the test units onto some cardboard and will try out the rule variant I've come up with and see how enthusiastic I am after that :-\

When are those Ancient Greeks coming out ;) :-\
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 10 September 2019, 11:28:26 PM
Cut out the test units :)

Hopefully I'll get a test game in over the weekend :!!
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: Chris Pringle on 11 September 2019, 12:48:48 AM
Quote from: paulr on 01 September 2019, 02:31:21 AM
I've been mulling over ideas for my next project for a while and have been thinking about something in the mid to late 1800s using Volley & Bayonet rules :-

This gives me three broad choices:

  • European - but which nations and years @-) :-/
  • American Civil War - Infantry, Artillery, cavalry - Blue & Grey :-
  • Colonial - variety of troop types, asymmetrical forces :- :-B

If the Mutiny isn't sparking interest among your gang, and if 'variety of troop types, asymmetrical forces' are important criteria - why not go Franco-Prussian? The French army especially has a great variety of colourful units - and its republican incarnation is quite different from the imperial one - and the German side is not without variety and interest too. And they are super-asymmetrical: better French rifles vs better German artillery, active and aggressive German command vs passive French commanders and doctrine, a range of troop quality on both sides ... And plenty of interesting battles, if historical battles are your thing.

I think Mad Lemmey of this parish has done a lot of FPW with V&B (right Will?).

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: pierre the shy on 11 September 2019, 02:08:21 AM
I think their concern was more along the lines of "not another period" as we play a wide veriety of rules and periods as it is. Armies/navies are not utilised that often given that usually our Saturday games take more than one session to play through. We use "V and B" fairly regularly so learning a new rule set is not an issue.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 11 September 2019, 05:45:21 AM
I think Pierre the Shy has summed it up reasonably well

There was also a bit of, "not really interested in colonials"

Personally I don't mind having forces that only get a run occasionally but I can understand their reluctance
If you only play a period once every year or two it can be hard to remember the tactics let alone the rules  ;)
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: FierceKitty on 11 September 2019, 06:23:52 AM
I think the hobby's full of "not interested in colonials" (I was one myself) until they've tried it.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 14 September 2019, 07:05:44 AM
Played the first test game of my Volley & Bayonet Wing scale Indian Mutiny variant with Junior General top down figures on cardboard cut outs

The scenario was based on the second battle of Agra, October 1857

The Mutineers managed to catch the Loyalists before they had gone stationary (fully formed up in V&B terms) but the initial wave didn't do as much damage as hoped

The action was fast and furious and musket fire from stationary units was devastating X_X

As the dust settled the Mutineers had lost two brigades and the morale of their other two brigades had collapsed

The Loyalists were not much better off one brigade had been destroyed, the morale of another had collapsed and the remaining brigade was grimly hanging on waiting for the reserves to sally from Agra :-SS

I'll give the scenario another run tomorrow with some different tactics and see how that goes, overall I'm very pleased with the first outing
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 15 September 2019, 12:07:28 AM
The second outing also went well

Repeated attacks by the Badmash wore down the Loyal cavalry while the main Mutineer infantry brigade and cavalry destroyed one of the Loyal brigades

The mutinous Bophal contingent tied down the other Loyal brigade but was destroyed in the process

The arrival of the sally from Agra saved the day for the Loyalists, Huzzah!
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 September 2019, 12:44:56 AM
Try not to loot the Taj Mahal, won't you?
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 15 September 2019, 08:57:16 AM
Wot me guv'nr ;)

Tried an attack on some dug in Mutineers this afternoon :-\
The Bophal contingent bore the brunt of the assault while the Badmash fought with the Loyal cavalry
I'll have to run the scenario again with fewer mutineers
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: Steve J on 15 September 2019, 09:58:20 AM
They sound like fun games Paul, any chance of some pics?
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 15 September 2019, 09:02:11 PM
You want pictures of my cardboard cut outs :o :-/

I'll try and remember for the next attack on the dug in Mutineers
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: Steve J on 16 September 2019, 06:07:14 AM
I don't mind seeing wooden blocks (as I have some :D) or card board counters for a game; they all help me get a feel of the action etc.
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 16 September 2019, 08:34:15 PM
Your wish is my command ;)

This test game was loosely based on a number of battles where Loyal forces were attacking Mutineers dug in around a village

The Loyal forces have advanced down the road from the top of the table and deployed to their right
The Mutineers have redeployed a battery of guns to support their only unit of cavalry on their left
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745665032_d90f3e6216_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgugWy)

Casualties are slowly mounting as both sides artillery fires
The Loyalists are surprised by effective long range rifled musket fire from a company in the village
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745488206_5ea4515a09_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgtnnQ)

Galled by the mounting casualties the Loyalists charge!
Mutineer moral holds all along the line :o X_X
The shock of the gallant charge of the 9th Lancers disorders the Mutineer artillery (yellow marker bottom left) #:-S X_X
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745664852_736ca98cb1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgugTs)

The Loyal attack on the dug in Mutineers has been a disaster, the survivors of the failed charge flee for their lives X_X
The one minor positive was the destruction of the Mutineer artillery and the exhaustion of the Bhopal Contingent
The Loyal cavalry have had more success destroying the cavalry and artillery
The infantry of the Bhopal Contingent redeploy and loose close range volleys into the flank of the 9th Lancers
The 23rd Bengal Native Infantry move up to provide support :!!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745151593_b0dec51c14_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgrDja)

The Loyal cavalry charged the Bhopal line with mixed success; Hodson's Horse was disordered during the charge and routed but enough causalities were inflicted by the other cavalry to destroy or exhaust the Bhopal infantry
The remaining Loyal infantry and artillery cause some casualties in the village
The 23rd Bengal Native Infantry advance to cover the withdrawing Bhopal infantry and the 7th Infantry, Gwalior Contingent join their line
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745664822_166a43dffc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgugSW)

The concentrated fire of two European battalions and 2 artillery batteries is too much for the forces in the village
The Loyal cavalry charges and two of the Mutineer units are disordered by the the charge and all three are routed and destroyed X_X
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745664632_b1fccbace9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgugPE)

A costly win to the Loyal forces

Overall the rules seemed to work pretty well :) :)

I'll make a couple of changes to clarify the QRS
The drilled cavalry are a little too strong so I'm also going to reduce the number of to hit dice for drilled cavalry from 4 to 3, this still leaves therm better than undrilled cavalry with 2.
It makes them the same as most non-stationary foot so the key for the cavalry is to disorder the foot
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 17 September 2019, 11:52:32 AM
Love the look, very effective
Title: Re: Next project - ACW, Colonial, ...
Post by: paulr on 17 September 2019, 08:30:21 PM
Taking the pictures 'top down' helps ;) ;D