Per Firing Modifiers table on p35...
Does an AFV firing AT for Suppressive Fire at Soft target get the +1 modifier if within 20cm please?
Thanks
Adam
Which modifier?
The +1 d6 for MGs or the +1 d6 for under half range?
I will check - not got my rules book with me, but I would suspect that the +1 for MG applies.
Quite why on earth you'd want to do it (fire your AT to suppress when you clearly have an AP factor that can knock-out and suppress) I am not sure.
Thanks Mark
The +1 for AFVs firing at Soft targets within 20cm modifier
PS - Why would I choose to do this ? - See example with Tiger II firing in separate post.
So much easier to suppress infantry when Firing to Suppress rather than Firing to Kill (esp if not playing Optional Hits Stay On)....which then leaves suppressed infantry either nicely out of the fight...or to be attacked by other units and driven into Fall Back / Knocked-Out.
Just in case this one forgotten -
Does the modifier apply please?
Which modifier?
The +1 d6 for shooting at under 20cms for having MGs at Soft target? Or the +1 d6 for shooting at under half range?
If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to bot the AT and AP factors regardless of target.
If it is half-range, Yes, as well as it is to represent the better effect of weapons close up.
NB: neither applies apply to Smoke as it is different - as you are not firing at the target to inflict casualties.
Does that make sense?
Cheers
This does make sense - thanks Mark.
Reference your last point on Smoke - Didnt know that one....don't think that is in the rule book right...If yes - where please?
If no .....one for the Errata on that table on p35 and in QRS perhaps?
Thanks again
Adam
You do not need it as an Errata on Smoke AJ - Smoke does not inflict casualties - if you fire Smoke you are firing Smoke, nothing else.
If you fire your other weapons to inflict casualties you get the +1 MG.
The reason you do not get a +1 d:6 when firing Smoke is because the extra MGs do not add to your ability to actually shoot the smoke round ... it is logical ... doesn't need a rule or an errata.
Likewise being closer doesn't hugely help you as again the Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits.
Thanks
Thanks Mark
I can only make the suggestion.
Whilst I completely see the point on the logic - I honestly think its easier for players to see in a table - maybe thats just me though! :)
Example -
Player A ...."Dont get the benefit of half range because im firing smoke? .....Why not?...Where does it say that?"
Player B....."It doesn't ...it doesn't need to...it's self evident...Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits."
Player B ...." ! ...I respectfully disagree - Its not in the rules..."
With huge respect to all your playing partners AJ ... you probably might need to tell them to get st*ff'd if that is the way they behave! :D :D :D (NB: I might have to moderate myself now) :'(
If you are playing with such pendants, a nice chap like you should cut his losses and find a new club to play with IMHO.
I accept that a rules writer could write everything down in minute detail, and produce lots of tables, and have lots of photographic examples but in the end you'll never ever cover every eventuality or ever be able to replicate even the most simple of historical situations as adequately as some players would like. Also any paper based rules set will end up unreadable or so unwieldy as to be impractical. Hence my previous comment about on-line games (which was not meant flippantly).
We'll put some (doesn't apply when firing Smoke) notes in the errata for your 'difficult' friend ;)
Cheers
mark
Thanks Mark - much appreciated
Note - I rather suspect Im more Player B sadly ;)
Quote from: Big Insect on 09 June 2019, 01:09:55 PM
If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to both the AT and AP factors regardless of target.
Mark, you're comment that it applies to both AT and AP contradicts the rules. in the table on page 35 it says "+1 if the unit is an AFV firing at a
soft target within 20cm" [bold as in the rules]
This is the same wording as bkc2.
Which is correct please?
No contradiction Dave.
The target must be 'Soft' - for the +1 for MG to apply, that is not in doubt.
You can fire AT at a 'Soft' target - you just get the extra +1 d6 for suppression.
But again, I am away on business without my Rules book to hand so will double check and revert about it applying to both AT and AP weapons.
The +1 for under half range applies against 'Hard' or 'Soft' targets and for AP and AT weapons
Away again? How the jet set live... 8)
I think I read your modifiers as applying to ALL fire, but I now think that you mean they apply to suppressive fire only - my mistake. So the MGs contribute to suppressive fire vs AFVs, but not for killing fire. the under 1/2 range always applies for direct and suppressive fire.
No Dave
The Firing Modifiers table on Page 35 states:
+1 (d6) ... if the unit (firing) is an AFV (so a Tank or carrier or SPG or half-track) at a Soft target within 20cm (ie. infantry, soft-skin & towed gun). This represents the various MGs associated with with the AFV - such as a coax, top-hatch or hull mounted MGs
So ... this adds +1 d6 - to either the AT factor (assuming that the AFV only has AT to shoot - so no AP factor) and in that case it adds to the number of suppression dice.
However, if the AFV already has an AP factor (even if it has an AT factor) it must use the AP to shoot at the Soft target, so the additional d:6 adds to the potential number of to Hit dice (as a normal shot).
Clear? :)
I think I'm getting it. I do think that the suppressive fire section needs expanding and explaining. Sorry.
Am I right then in thinking that an AFV with no AP attacks can only use its 1x d6 MGs to suppress soft targets. It cannot kill soft targets (because it has no AP attacks).
Correct - but ....
Example 1:
A tank only has an AT of 3/40 and no AP attacks
- @ 40cm it can fire its AT at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 3 suppression d6
- @ 20cms it can fire its AT supported by an additional +1 d6 for its MGs - but all count as suppressive shooting, it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range (on its primary weapon)
The alternative would be to give this Tank a 1/20 AP factor, but by doing so it cannot shoot its primary weapon (with its AT score) against Soft vehicles to suppress them (unless the target is over 20cms away). And if it is under 20cm its shooting dice are reduced to just 1/20 (the AP dice) as that must be used against a Soft target. This is not a desired outcome.
Example 2:
A tank only has an AT 3/40 and an AP 2/60 - as it has an AP factor it must use this when shooting against a Soft target
- @ 60cm it can fire its AP at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 2 hit d6
- @ 30cms it can fire its AP but it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range
- @ 20cm it adds another +1 d:6 to represent its close range MGs
This under 20cm +1 d6 for AFVs is an addition to the main armament, not a separate additional AP factor.
Does that help?
Mark,
Yes, I think that I'm getting it:
1. Suppressive fire is only permitted if you have no ability to cause hits on the target. Fine with that;
2. All of the British 2pdr tanks have AP and AT attacks - hence they can't ever use suppressive fire;
3. British 2pdr AT guns have AT only (no MGs) so they can use suppressive fire vs soft targets;
Is that right?
1. this is specified somewhere in the rules (I do not have my set with me) but that is correct. If you have a weapon that can inflict Hits on a target you must use that weapon. The only exception is Smoke. You can choose to fire Smoke at a Soft or Hard target, even if you have an AT &/or an AP factor. Smoke is different from other rounds.
2. No ... 0-40 AT represents SMOKE - so as you cannot inflict HITS or Suppression with Smoke - you use the AP stats at all times - against Hard targets you suppress, against Soft targets you inflict Hits. You do not get a +1d6 for shooting Smoke at under half range or a +1 d:6 for MGs if firing Smoke.
3). Yes. AT guns with solid shot and no HE cannot inflict Hits on Soft targets only potentially suppression. They get a +1 d:6 for shooting at a target under half range but no +1 d:6 under 20cm because they are not an AFV.
Hi
Further to the above queries and clarifications, what happens to an AFV that is already 'suppressed' by small arms fire and is hit again by small arms fire in a subsequent order phase? Do the usual 'Fall back' and 'Retreat' rules apply including the possibility of being knocked out?
Can someone please point out to me where this is covered in the rules as I'm introducing a friend to BKC tomorrow and I know they will be asking!
Cheers Paul
No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it. It's similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.
Hi T-Square
Many thanks again for the clarification. I'm just about to introduce a friend to BKC, can you please tell me where that is in the rules (I know he will be asking)?
Cheers Paul
Quote from: T-Square on 09 July 2019, 09:51:17 PM
No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it. It's similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.
That's not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.
p.35 Calculating Fire says that such fire only causes Suppression. We've taken that to mean that suppressions is literally the only possible effect.
Another one for clarification?
Dave - the 2pdr crew would at least have rifles, and towed guns DID have HE. Also each gun could well have a Bren issued with it, that was standard for most towed guns, for site protection.
IanS
I'd agree with that, British and German ATG platoons always had at least one LMG, more often one per gun, and all the crew had rifles. Not that I can think of any ATG that didn't have HE, but even if so, an A/P factor of 1/30cm as a minimum is going to apply to all towed guns of every army.
Mark
Quote from: Dr Dave on 10 July 2019, 09:01:54 AM
That's not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.
The way I read it is that there are no unsaved hits. (i.e. none of the hits inflict damage)
Ah, seems we are talking about two different things here.
I'm basically saying that there would never be a situation where a unit doesn't have an Anti-Personnel factor. So there would never be a situation where you use A/T factors against soft targets, unless you are out of range with your A/P factor. In which case firing armour-piercing rounds at infantry or trucks c800m or further away should be useless anyway, or even at 80m for that matter, unless they are in a house or pillbox. Rules allowing armour-piercing ammo to suppress entire platoons of anti-tank guns or infantry for example is generous to say the least.
I think the Calculating Fire section on pg.35 should read.
To calculate firing, take the attack value of the unit from the army list (eg, an attack stat of 3/60 has an attack value of 3 dice). If the target is a soft target, you must use A/P factor if available at that range. if the target is a hard target (units with a save value) then you must use the A/T factor. If you are out of range for your appropriate attack factor, then you can use the other attack factor if it is in range, but be aware it can only cause suppression, and this is named Suppressive Fire. .....
The chapter on Knock-Out on page 36 seems to be completely missing a paragraph on what to do when you fire suppressive fire only. I'd have thought this to be appropriate
When firing Suppressive Fire, that is, using the incorrect attack factor for the target type, the target cannot be knocked out, nor made to suffer subsequent fall backs by similar fire. Calculate the number of hits as usual, and carry out the number of saves. If there are any unsaved hits left, then test to see if the unit is suppressed. If a unit is already suppressed and further hit by Suppressive Fire, it suffers no further ill effect. The idea of multiple activations with a few Bren guns driving off entire platoons of Tiger II tanks is absurd.
Or you can make the fallback rule still apply, but no knock out effect. But as the effect of being suppressed is basically the platoon is temporarily knocked out for the rest of the game turn - is that not drastic enough?
Mark B
The number of gun crew with LMGs, rifles etc is considered to be too small to warrant an AP factor. And if we were to allocate an AP factor it would be very low.
So any AT guns or AFVs only firing AT shot - so with no HE rounds - will not have an AP factor (unless the AFV also has MGs in which case it will have an AP factor and must use that.
Units only with AT factors can shoot with their AT factor but this only causes suppression on a target.
'Hits' are caused on a target as usual and can be saved - but instead of putting hits on the unit these become suppressions.
If the same suppressed unit is hit again (by any fire) and receives more hit/suppressions, these are treated as suppressions for fall-back purposes.
Such a AT only unit does not get a +1 <20cm as there is no MG but do get the +1 d6 for under half-range (as this reflect things like better accuracy.
Shooting Smoke at a target unit does not cause casualties, does not get a +1 d:6 for under 20cms and does not get a +1 d6 for under half-range.
I hope that clarifies things
Mark
Hi Mark
Just to confirm.
You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36).
Is that correct?
Cheers Paul
Boy is that going to cause some consternation. I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like. However, I can't see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back. Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die. Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.
Quote from: T-Square on 11 July 2019, 07:59:09 PM
Boy is that going to cause some consternation. I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like. However, I can't see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back. Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die. Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.
If it's suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.
Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading "The 17 pounder at Arnhem", these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence.
Quote from: Dr Dave on 11 July 2019, 08:54:05 PM
If it's suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.
Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading "The 17 pounder at Arnhem", these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence.
I just went through the book. I may have mIssed it. Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?
The +1 d6 <20cm MG is only added to existing MGs on the AFV.
If you have an AFV with only AT (that means it has no MGs anyway) you do not add the +1 d6 <20cm as there is no MG to add.
Some AFV's specifically state that they have No MGs, so they do not get the +1 d6 <20cm. Their AP offensive stat is probably HE from their main gun.
Again, it's logical ... the <20cm might be smaller MGs on the vehicle, but equally it could be to reflect greater accuracy of the main guns AP factor at closer range.
This is one of those factors/rules that has been around across a number of earlier iterations of the rules but we will add a clarification in the suppression section of the errata.
We are also adding back in the missing - AFVs are only suppressed on a 6 from suppressive fire (which is old BKCII and CWC etc) in the errata. Thus avoiding the possibility of the mighty JS-III being suppressed by a lowly German infantry rifle platoon.
Hope that makes sense.
Mark
Hi Mark
Sorry for being a pain :( but can you please confirm (or otherwise) my last question of yesterday:
"You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36)".
Is that correct?
Cheers Paul
Yes Paul
Units that are already suppressed by suppressive fire, will fall-back and can potentially be knocked-out as a result of further suppressions (whether from suppressive fire or ordinary Hits related suppressions or a combination).
Thanks
Mark
Quote from: T-Square on 12 July 2019, 02:42:15 AM
I just went through the book. I may have mIssed it. Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?
It doesn't Terry
It was a known omission/errata and will be corrected in the new BKCIV errata sheet - so you can only suppress with Suppressive Fire against AFVs (e.g. a 'Hard' target) on a 6
Thanks
Mark
Hi Mark
Many thanks.
Cheers Paul
Mark,
Thank you. That's why I couldn't find it.
Terry
Remember, the RAW is for tanks within no AP. If you use if for troops with no AT then the target AFV still gets a save against any hits. It will be difficult.
Interestingly the suppressive fire rule is only for guns with no AP capability as it appears in bkc1 and 3. There's no mention of it applying to infantry with no AT. I spoke to a veteran of 1 Worcesters about 18 months ago and on the Island in Oct 44 they KO'd two German tanks with small arms fire. Both the commanders took head shots when the platoon let loose. So it's difficult, not impossible, and small arms can push back (KO in game terms) AFVs.