Spotted this on p.49, but I can't understand how this is possible in the real world. Anyone know of any examples of it being used in real world?
It is what has been agreed on as part of the play testing.
If you do not like it Dr Dave ... fine ... set up your own house rule ;) ;)
But from talking to modern artillerymen you do not combine HE with Smoke as it blows the smoke all over the place and dissipates it.
if you want to drop smoke and HE then drop the HE as one order and the Smoke as the final order.
Cheers
Mark
Thanks Mark - I'll check it out ;)
We've not played that yet. We do deduct one dice if shooting through a concentration due to amount of Sh&*% flying around that would limit visibility - but not completely block it.
I spoke to several gunner NCOs and Officers up to Lt Col.
They stated that it is not possible to clear a smoke screen with artillery, air or ground burst. They were a bit confused how it might ever be considered possible. Explosions add to the screen, they don't "blow" the smoke away. I think the play-testing might have departed from reality?
Didnt say anything - but was wondering where that came from..Artillery blocks vision, although not so much with the modern stuff, which is much less ground burst.
Not my era of interest, wargaming wise, so, please, bear with me. Why would you want to clear a smokescreen? Presumably you or the enemy would lay down smoke to attack or slip away. If attacking, would you not wish to do so immediately, before the smoke dissipates? And if so, does this give the defender enough time to call in an accurate artillery barrage? And if the defender does have enough time, would the point of the barrage not be to halt or disrupt the attack and not simply blow away smoke? I'm puzzled. :-/
Hi Westmarcher -
Is your question ref 'real world' or 'in the game' please?
A
As far as possible, isn't one of the aims of the game to try to simulate aspects of the real world on the tabletop?
ah.... the Dr. is your man there
Quote from: Westmarcher on 04 June 2019, 08:50:28 AM
As far as possible, isn't one of the aims of the game to try to simulate aspects of the real world on the tabletop?
Yes, absolutely.
In the game there's the potential for:
- Side A drops smoke to obscure his approach and begins his advance (or withdrawal)
- Then side B (in the game) drops HE that "clears" the smoke. The screen is removed. Side B can now see and fire on Side A's troops in the open as they move.
This doesn't seem to be possible in the
real world. As Ian has said - you can't see through ground burst artillery when it lands let alone a smoke screen and even airburst kicks up a hell of a lot of dust. In reality, all fire actually adds to a smoke screen. To disperse a smoke screen you'd need to have consistent external force to "blow" in the same direction for some period of time –
the wind – not explosions within the screen caused by additional HE. The added HE just creates more dust and crap to add to the original obscurant, though not as well due to its physical size. Smoke particulates are generally smaller than the soil dust thrown up.
This game mechanic also falls over in the face of
real world mixed smoke and HE shoots. The solution to fire HE and then smoke is just a faff and it wasn't done like that anyway. It also falls over in the famous case of op Veritable. British arty hit the German positions to some depth, then switched smoke onto their front line. Jerry took this to be the start of the infantry advance and so fired HE into the Brit smoke – to kill the assaulting infantry. It did not clear the smoke. If it had Jerry would have seen there was no infantry. British and Canadian arty and mortar location radar plotted the positions of the Jerry arty that was firing and it all had another 2 hrs of fire.
There doesn't seem to be anything in the battlespace for clearing smoke short of a stiff breeze and nukes (old footage shown them party the clouds).
For the real world effect, you need a level 10 wizard with a weather control spell.
Or Storm from the XMen.
;D
Quote from: fsn on 04 June 2019, 04:16:05 PM
For the real world effect, you need a level 10 wizard with a weather control spell.
Or Storm from the XMen.
Or a helicopter (or several).
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 04 June 2019, 08:38:15 PM
Or a helicopter (or several).
;D
...but then, dependant on environment, you get "brown out" - big problem in the deserty places.
Yes, I've never heard of artillery HE clearing smoke. I've heard of mixed HE and smoke shoots. I've seen film footage where HE barrages make smoke in effect, just with all the dust and debris they through up. But I've never heard of HE barrages disrupting or clearing a smoke screen.
It is worth reading up on WW1 experiences with Smoke - I'll check my reference sources, but I think it was at Ypres, where British Smoke was due to be dropped on the German trenches after a major artillery (HE) concentration/barrage was fired. However, the 2 sets of gunners didn't/couldn't co-ordinate and the HE continued to fall as the Smoke shells were also delivered.
The HE dispersed the Smoke and the ensuing infantry attack was cut down.
This is based on actual British Army reports (as there was an inquiry) and also personal letters from the troops involved.
If a player wants to drop Smoke on an enemy and the enemy then shell their own troops with HE to clear it, I think I'd not want to be on the receiving end of that enquiry.
And you cannot shell your own troops with Smoke (that's a ruling).
Cheers
Mark
Mark, noted and thanks.
My initial thought is that your evidence is from WW1 (a different war where artillery smoke was a relatively immature technology) and is contradicted by evidence from WW2 - where mixed HE/Smoke was employed in single shoots.
Smoke in WWI was primarily used to con the enemy into thinking they were under a gas attack, rather than for concealment.
IanS
From the 2nd Canadian Division fire plan at the start of Op Veritable
Fire Sp [support]
a. Arty:
i. the outline Corps fire plan is as follows:
0500 - - arty preparation starts
0730 - 0740 - smoke screen starts
0740 - 0750 - complete silence incl PEPPER POT
0750 - arty fire recommences
0915 - smoke screen NW edge REICHSWALD starts
0920 - intense CB as a result of infm from smoke screen
0920 - opening line of barrage (mixed HE and smoke) starts
1000 - complete barrage starts
1030 - H hr and first lift
I seem to have misplaced my copy of "Barrage" by Ian Hogg :'( - so I've just ordered another copy :D
Maybe Ian but the principle was the same - the British Tommies expected to be screened by the smoke but it was dispersed by their own HE and the German MG nests quickly reoccupied could see the advancing Brits easily and gunned them down.
But this is a WW2 set of rules, not WW1.....
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 06 June 2019, 06:00:11 PM
But this is a WW2 set of rules, not WW1.....
The other points to consider are
- we don't know if the infantry attack failed and they were simply looking to blame someone else (not the first time) - what was the result of the enquiry?
- what was the weather doing. If windy, that might be why the smoke was dispersed
- This, I think, is the only set of rules that allow this to happen. Has everyone else really missed it?
- The physics of obscurants don't let this happen. Explosions can't cause aggregation (clumping) of the smoke particles that would make them drop out of suspension.
- Besides your gunner has anyone else claimed this is an issue. Was the smoke blocking his los in a game when he suggested it?..
- Battlefield ISTAR is my area and I've never heard of this and none of my Arty colleagues think this is possible
- Real WW2 accounts show smoke and HE was mixed.
Hi Mark
For what it is worth I have seen mixed HE and smoke used by 105mm Abbots in the 70's (yes I know it is the wrong 'period') and the HE certainly did not 'clear' the smoke. Sorry Mark, but I cannot help feeling that it is rules like this one that give a rule set a bad name.
That said I admire your persistence in 'defending' a dodgy position! ;)
Just my tuppence worth.
Cheers Paul
The difference between a WW2 and a WW1 shelling is probably marginal from a set of rules perspective.
I will find the actual quotes and whilst I can see that dropping modern smoke might be different I'm sticking to my guns currently :D
Today I asked another RA gunnery instructor and two chaps working in "operational analysis" and ammo design. All three thought that this is not possible. A BSM from Larkhill also says that this isn't possible. Physics of suspensions and blast waves don't allow it. You'll move it a little within the screen, but you'll never remove it. :(
Ok if we doing technical stuff there were two types of smoke :-
Base Eject- this is non phosphorous and used almost entirely by the British - smoke candles were ejected from the rear of the shell. Takes a little longer to build a screen but it lasts much longer. It also has no anti-personnel effect.
White Phosphorous - shell bursts on impact and releases a cloud of chemical smoke. This has an anti-personnel effect and dissipates a bit quicker. I suspect that WW1 smoke was of this type. Its very dangerous, and self defence smoke is of this type (grenades and dischargers) .
Unless the HE fire destroys all the candles a base eject screen is going to remain, and a phosphorus screen is a scattering of small pellets over an area so the HE is going to have little effect. Also only ground burst HE is going to have an effect, if any.
The rule should be removed.
IanS
"The rule should be removed. "
Seconded.
Thirded :(