2 questions reference smoke for clarification please -
(1) Is the 'Generate Smoke' Ability (p79) redundant ...and replaced by Generating Smoke (AFVs) rule on p15 please?
Or are there perhaps non-AFV units that have this ability?
(2) 'Smoke' Ability (p79) :
(i) Are there any limitations on smoke firing (e.g. number of smoke rounds per game)? Or is this left to Army List rule restrictions (e.g. Sherman smoke max 2 rounds per game in American Lists)?
(ii) Guessing the reference in bold "see...Smoke - Page 15" is incorrect? Page 15 is about AFV Generating smoke on itself and not about firing smoke onto others
(iii) Are all references to Smoke ability for off-table Artillery incorrect / redundant? This given that Artillery Support rules on p49 state that ALL off-table artillary units (except Naval guns) may fire smoke (as a fire-zone attack)
(iv) Can smoke be fired at friendly units using this ability (noting that Artillery Support smoke cannot)?
Many thanks
Adam
Many thanks Adam
Let me check this.
One thing I can clarify is that you cannot fire Smoke at your own troops. They wont like it, not one bit as the smoke canisters can cause casualties (not that we want that built into the game!).
As to the number of rounds ... the Sherman limitation is a carry-over from BKCII (& is correct). We had a long debate about whether we should include a comprehensive list of all the AFVs that carried smoke rounds and how many rounds etc. but it just got far to complicated.
There are certain tanks - like some of the British Cruisers ( :'( :'( :'() that only had Smoke ammunition and they are specifically noted in the lists.
On the non-AFV units that can generate smoke ... there you have me ... I think that the Russians had some sort of portable man-carried smoke generators towards the end of the war, which is why this is included, but no-doubt somebody (probably Ian?) can enlighten me.
Should P79 and P15 be aligned? Yes they should.
So to answer your questions (a very clear way of presenting them ... thank you):
(1) Is the 'Generate Smoke' Ability (p79) redundant ...and replaced by Generating Smoke (AFVs) rule on p15 please?
Or are there perhaps non-AFV units that have this ability?
> see above
(2) 'Smoke' Ability (p79) :
(i) Are there any limitations on smoke firing (e.g. number of smoke rounds per game)? Or is this left to Army List rule restrictions (e.g. Sherman smoke max 2 rounds per game in American Lists)?
> see above but generally no limits, unless the lists specify
(ii) Guessing the reference in bold "see...Smoke - Page 15" is incorrect? Page 15 is about AFV Generating smoke on itself and not about firing smoke onto others
> good spot
(iii) Are all references to Smoke ability for off-table Artillery incorrect / redundant? This given that Artillery Support rules on p49 state that ALL off-table artillary units (except Naval guns) may fire smoke (as a fire-zone attack)
> not sure what you mean?
(iv) Can smoke be fired at friendly units using this ability (noting that Artillery Support smoke cannot)?
> see above - short answer - no they cannot
Thanks
Thanks Mark v helpful.
On point (iii) ..I mean for example -
per British Army List NW Europe ....off-table support ...some guns are listed as having the Smoke ability ....other ART-SG units are not.
Rules on p49 allow ALL off-table artillery to fire smoke as a fire-zone.
Therefore question is whether Smoke ability for all off-table artillery is redundant/incorrect?
Thanks again
Ah ... no not redundant - the British NW Europe list is a error - it is more likely that the lists will restrict the Smoke capability rather than confirm it.
So all off-table guns (except naval guns) have smoke - unless stated otherwise.
Thanks
Ah ok ..an error - got you
.....so I've not really looked through all the army lists ....
but is that also true of the German Nebelwerfer off-table unit - where it has Smoke ability listed?
Adam
Neb's fired smoke - it was one of their specific roles.
But as I say - the intention with the off-table artillery is to state that it doesn't have smoke rather than it does.
Mark - smoke was 10% of issued rounds to 25pdr. Almost all British tanks has a smoke mortar, and it was added to Shermans (all of em). Means the battlefield gets terrible smoky. Your comment about casualties - most armies used White Phos smoke candles, the British didnt, but the tank smoke mortars did. It's reconed to be 1/3-1/2 as lethal as HE.
BTW - I am loving the new smoke rule on p49 -
where if non-smoke artillery falls within a smoke screen - the affected area of smoke is now eliminated.
I now have a way to clear enemy smoke - if brought down near my Scheduled registered target points or visible enemy units!
Well spotted AJ - it was why you didnt mix smoke with standard rounds, but dropped you smoke at the end of a firing cycle,
One point here...
I can now see a use for all my Cruiser and Matilda CS tanks! :D While the others are using their 2pdrs the CS tank can fire smoke (and so "mask") Jerry.
-But how big is the smoke zone created? Just big enough to block the target's LOS? I'm pondering making some bases with smoke puffs on them.
Your call Dave
They should be big enough to completely mask the unit base or the model. If that helps.
Cheers
Thanks for the fast response Mark.
I'll make up some bases and see how people receive it. Real CS tanks carried so much smoke to mark targets but the secondary effect must have been to mask them as well. Challenger 2 still carries its smoke for the same purpose. I assume that the range is the same for the AP stat line, so if it says AP: 2/80 it could read "Smk/80"?
The trick to deal with 88's in the desert might be to engage with opp fire smoke from the CS tanks and so mask the 88! I can see a game reason for the CS tanks now, but also the CS tanks might be targeted more as well :(
Quote from: Dr Dave on 07 June 2019, 10:21:24 AM
Thanks for the fast response Mark.
I'll make up some bases and see how people receive it. Real CS tanks carried so much smoke to mark targets but the secondary effect must have been to mask them as well. Challenger 2 still carries its smoke for the same purpose. I assume that the range is the same for the AP stat line, so if it says AP: 2/80 it could read "Smk/80"?
The trick to deal with 88's in the desert might be to engage with opp fire smoke from the CS tanks and so mask the 88! I can see a game reason for the CS tanks now, but also the CS tanks might be targeted more as well :(
Actually, looking back I think this was already kinda there in the BKC2 optional rules.
In BKCIV it looks like fire and definitely block los?
In v2 it was fire and partially block on a score of 6 with the 2 dice (assuming 2/80) - and by partially block I mean reduce the fire dice back at you by only 1! So the change has gone from very hard, to very easy.
The hit on a 6 for Smoke seemed illogical - if you can hit on a 4,5,6 with your AT why not hit on 4,5,6 for Smoke.
Also with the CS tanks (and this is has been debated elsewhere already) that is why they have a 0/40 stat for their AT shooting.
(& no there is no +1 d6 for shooting Smoke under half range).
So you use AT stats for shooting Smoke at a target.
Quote from: Big Insect on 08 June 2019, 09:11:13 PM
The hit on a 6 for Smoke seemed illogical - if you can hit on a 4,5,6 with your AT why not hit on 4,5,6 for Smoke.
Also with the CS tanks (and this is has been debated elsewhere already) that is why they have a 0/40 stat for their AT shooting.
(& no there is no +1 d6 for shooting Smoke under half range).
So you use AT stats for shooting Smoke at a target.
Yes, I think you're right about it being too hard for a minor effect in v2 - but this opens another (small) can of worms I'm afraid. A few of the CS tanks have NO AT capability at all - so they can't fire "smoke" as you describe. Also, with smoke you're not actually trying to "hit" the target with the smoke rnd - but simply get smoke intervening twixt shooter and target. Smoke rounds would have a similar flight profile to HE, not being a KE weapon.
So, I'm inclined to think 4+ to hit as you say, completely blocks los, but dice is the AP, not the AT stat line?
If you give the AT a factor it will potentially be able to inflict casualties and cause suppression - neither of which is the intention of a Smoke round.
Hence why an AT factor of 0/40 was suggested and has been adopted as it allows the range to be calculated.
When shooting Smoke you get 1 x d6 to hit and you hit as per the units normal to-hit factor.
This has been discussed on a previous thread and will be clarified in the errata - so that it is crystal clear why it is what it is.
Thanks
So, 0/40 AT can be taken as Smk/40
1x D6 to hit on a 4+ if in the open.
No modifiers - since you're not trying to hit the target - only plop smoke in front of it? i.e. low profile, in buildings etc... don't apply.
The smoke is:
- no bigger than the target as it faces the firer;
- immediate and completely blocks los;
- removed at the end of the opponents turn.
Happy Days :D
Modifiers do apply Dave (in cover, low profile etc) - use the normal firing stats/process and yes Smk/40 might well be a better way of avoiding any challenges.
Also - Smoke is not necessarily removed at the end of the Opponents turn - see the Tiger Hunt scenario - because you can Smoke Generate as an Initiative action - in which case that smoke remains in play throughout the Active players turn and then into the next turn for the player that generated the Smoke.
Does that make sense?
Cheers
Mark
So whenever shooting smoke it is only 1d6? Or if the unit has say an AT 3/40 stat would it be 3d6?
When/If you get a chance Mark .....
Would be brilliant to understand the initiative smoke timing for placement and removal - with a simple Player A does this ..Player B does that - if at all possible.
No rush though!
A
Quote from: Big Insect on 10 June 2019, 01:01:34 PM
Modifiers do apply Dave (in cover, low profile etc) - use the normal firing stats/process and yes Smk/40 might well be a better way of avoiding any challenges.
Also - Smoke is not necessarily removed at the end of the Opponents turn - see the Tiger Hunt scenario - because you can Smoke Generate as an Initiative action - in which case that smoke remains in play throughout the Active players turn and then into the next turn for the player that generated the Smoke.
Mark, sorry - I can't see how a target being low profile can make it harder to mask with a smoke screen. Surely, if anything it's easier? It's "shorter", or not as tall as a tank say, so it's easier to mask it off? :(
I was thinking purely about the CS tanks shooting smoke rounds - but yes - lots of British tanks have projectors etc.
Low Profile reduces the number of shooting dice. It doesn't change the to hit score.
So if you only have 1 shooting dice Low Profile makes no difference
But you're not trying to hit the target. Your trying to place a smoke round on the ground in front of it.
It's all about game play Dave
Visibility is a constant - you still got to see a target to be able to hit it (with the exception of on-table indirect fire).
Profile effects visibility
Ok, so spotting - or part of it - that was absent in bkc2 and 1, is rolled into the number of attacks. Got it.
For Smoking a unit yes