Overhead firing
V4 is the same as V2 in that:-
Page 35 "All vehicles and guns may fire over troops on foot, command units and dug in troops when the target is a vehicle. Mortars and infantry guns can fire indirectly over all units. All troops may fire over other units if either the unit firing or the target are on higher ground than any intervening troops. All other overhead firing is prohibited."
If a ATG Unit is masked by an Infantry unit (friend or foe) then an enemy tank opposite cannot trace a LOF to the ATG, but the ATG can trace a LOF to the tank (AFV).
What if the ATG was in a Bunker, would you allow the tank to fire at the bunker over the intervening infantry?
I don't tend to allow more than one unit into a building and normally treat as single story, as sometimes we have "they're firing from upstairs." Obviously bigger buildings this may be permissable as higher ground is not defined.
Do players allow SP Artillery such as Wespe fire indirectly, although in lists classed as Armour, but their off table equivalents can?
Thoughts?
:-
Thanks
Andy
Hi Andy
My take -
(1) LOS is fine between the ATG and the tank - as INF unit is low profile and does not block LOS
(2) As per BKCII ...Tank cannot fire over INF to gun (if INF visible) ....but gun can fire over INF to Tank.
(3) What about if gun in a bunker? Unless you rule the bunker is higher ground than INF ...then Tank still cannot fire overhead. Field Defences rule re bunkers on p11 only refers to treating them a HAT for movement purposes .....so guess that its all just done to part of the normal pre-game checklist - where confirming relative heights of terrain features takes place. Perhaps a house rule that states than >Xmm calibre deployed guns are deemed average profile (as per any non-deployed gun profile) would help resolve.
(4) SP Artillery should be in the Artillery list if used On-table I believe. Artillery Support rules (p47) indicate that such artillery would still fire as Infantry Guns rules (per p45)...which allow for indirect firing as well as direct firing.
My guess is the Wespe is listed in the wrong place in the Armour list ...and should be in the Artillery List (as well as Off-table Support list) not as an AFV ..but as a ART:IG, with Exposed, Restricted Arc and Tracked abilities. However - I stand to be corrected!
Finally - Funny that the Wespe (and other units) listed as Off-table Support should have the Tracked ability listed.....I wonder why / what difference it makes ??
Hope this helps
Adam
Thanks. Tracked ability - I suppose they don't have to stop at linear obstacles anymore!
LOL
I mean if its Off-Table....movement irrelevant ...so why list an ability that only refers to movement?
Another oversight im sure
Adam
Yes, I suppose SP is all that is relevant for off table artillery for the FAO bonus.
Just noticed I've been promoted to Subaltern! :-[
Quote from: Cross698 on 18 May 2019, 01:50:53 PM
Just noticed I've been promoted to Subaltern! :-[
Congratulations! Well deserved promotion. Drinks on you in the Mess tonight :)
Have to go on the chitty :o :'(
NO CREDIT TO JUNIOR OFFICERS !!!!!
Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 18 May 2019, 01:18:03 PM
LOL
I mean if its Off-Table....movement irrelevant ...so why list an ability that only refers to movement?
Another oversight im sure
Adam
I seem to recall that it made a difference for counter battery fire.
Just checked, p49 counter battery fire hits towed guns on a 5-6 and self propelled on a 6. so while the tracked ability does not come into play, it does serve to show that the unit is self propelled for 'to hit' purposes.
Yes - exactly .....Tracked ability not required for anything off-table.
Being a Self-propelled unit does matter -
(1) Per p47 - Get a Command CV bonus when calling in all self-propelled ....defined as Artillery having a Move value in the army lists.
(2) Per p19 - harder to hit by Counter-battery Fire.
But - in the Wespe example used (where it would be useful to have an ability listed)...there is no mention of off-table Wespes having the Exposed Ability ...whereas the on-table Wespe does (p131/132)
Another one that got through?
Adam
I believe mortars can't do counter battery fire, so the exposed ability would not come into play i think?
Exposed Ability gives the Attacker an additional 1d6 for mortars, artillery or air attacks.
See how useful to list this one rather than Tracked - lol
Yes true, forgot that one, didn't have the book with me when i replied!
Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 18 May 2019, 03:53:51 PM
(1) Per p47 - Get a Command CV bonus when calling in all self-propelled ....defined as Artillery having a Move value in the army lists.
It's always been in ever since v1. Pete Jones conceded it was just there to make SP different to towed. Plus is utter b*****ks
But you highlighted the other key thing SP is safer vs CB fire.
Just been sitting on sidelines watching you all working this one out ... well done ... I have limited time to respond to all queries.
On the Wespe specifically, no point in having it as Exposed off-table as the vast majority of off-table artillery is technically usually 'exposed'. In fact I struggle to think of an enclosed tracked artillery unit? Not in WW2 anyway. Although I am sure somebody will prove me wrong :D
We could also then get into the issue about whether the off-table artillery is dug-in or holed up in a BAU or in a wood etc.etc.etc.
Mortars are mostly classified as on-table units - there are exceptions of course but even the big tracked soviet 'mortars' are not really mortars - more like howitzers. So you don't get mortar counter-battery off-table (again this is to keep the game simple to play).
The Tracked ability is a good one as it covers a couple of points around mobility and also the fact that tracked artillery is generally more ready to fire than a gun that is towed and needs to be deployed.
Cheers
Mark
Thanks Mark
I think I understand -
(a) Pointless showing off table anything as having Tracked ability
(b) Wespe (as an example) should have Exposed ability in both on and off table ....as no difference in attacking these vulnerable units...however - given that Counter-Battery rules are straight from BKCII (where only hit SP guns on a 6) ...
it seems counter-intuative for them to be both hard to hit (a 6 needed) ...but also Exposed (Attacker +1 die) ....so the ability has been dropped for off-table.
Thanks again
Adam
I should add - that other army lists have off-table Self propelled guns listed with Exposed ability.
E.g. British Army NW Europe ....Priest and Sexton .....although amusingly - both are listed as AIR units!
Hence - ref Wespe example ...I was suggesting that this unit should also carry Exposed ability off table as well as on-table.
Hence confusion reigns!
Hi Adam
Not quite -
Tracked ability off table is there to make it easier to command (+1) because the unit is deemed to be more 'prepared' to fire quickly at a command.
Also a -1 for counter-battery as the unit can be moved quickly
Exposed (off-table) is pointless as almost all artillery units are effectively Exposed (cannot think of one that is - maybe other than the Bishop?)
There are lots of tracked artillery on-table that are Exposed but this is usually covered off in their Hits and Save as they are deployed as standard guns with dismounted crews.
Wespes and Priests etc as IGs can be classified as Exposed on-table as they are often in a more 'front-line' role. Same as Hellcats or Marders.
Or am I confusing you even more?
Sadly yes - even more confused.
(1) Unless I completely miss-read the Tracked ability ....its all just about movement adjustments ....none of which matter for off-table units. Hence seemingly redundant. Other rules on +1 to command SP Artillery and 6 to hit SPGs are from BKCII - when no abilities existed.
(2) Some off-table artillery are listed with the Exposed Ability (which only applies to them when receiving Counter-Battery fire I think) E.g. Priest / Sexton.......others are not E.g. Wespe. Surely this should be consistent?
Thanks for bearing with me!
The Tracked ability does apply off-table.
It adds a -1 to the FAO CV when ordering (as the unit is assumed to be more ready to fire - not having to notionally deploy)
It adds a +1 to the CV for an enemy FAO ordering a counter-battery strike as the Tracked units are assumed not to need to redeploy to move off quickly after firing.
If the WESPE has Exposed against it in it's off-table stats - it's an error - as all Offtable artillery are considered to be Exposed and that is already taken into account in their hits and saves factors.
NB: we had had a number of issues with the Army lists - these are primarily to do with cut & paste issues and also the fact that no matter how thoroughly we proof read them and play-tested them & we had over 20 players globally doing this, issues, errors and omissions have (sadly) crept in.
These will all get corrected in the updated PDFs and errata listings which are being compiled.
Thanks
Mark
Quote from: Big Insect on 18 May 2019, 07:54:51 PM
The Tracked ability is a good one as it covers a couple of points around mobility and also the fact that tracked artillery is generally more ready to fire than a gun that is towed and needs to be deployed.
...Assuming all artillery is in perpetual motion before the action starts... and since towed guns are always at this disadvantage they are assumed to never properly deploy?
I know it's has ever been thus in all bkc rules, but it is really daft! >:(
It's something that needs to be factored into the points cost for Tracked guns v towed guns.
I'm not so convinced it is that daft Dave - the whole 'shoot & skoot' tactic is exactly what a tracked artillery piece is designed for - that and the ability to keep up with the armoured advance.
Having watched how long it takes a modern 105mm gun to unhitch, deploy, get ammo ready, lay the gun etc. I'd a say that towed artillery is at a considerable disadvantage compared with tracked artillery - especially vehicles like Wespes or M7 Priests etc.
It could be argued that they carried less artillery than their towed counterparts of course but we getting into another level of abstraction there ;)
Cheers
The major problem with artillery is surveying in - and this takes some 30 minutes, what ever your gun is. For modern warfare in NWE, NATO had pre surveyed points all over Germany, and from the early 90's GPS, so no need to survey in. To move is the same for all periods, move tractor to gun, load up the dumped ammunition, cable and speakers (British artillery at least had a tannoy system to pass on firing data), and drive off - 5-10 minutes. The Survey problem would be overcome by send out advanced parties to overcome the delay.
Tracked and wheeled SP's really don't get any advantage in the process if it's planed properly.
Ian S
Quote from: Big Insect on 19 May 2019, 07:14:23 AM
I'm not so convinced it is that daft Dave - the whole 'shoot & skoot' tactic is exactly what a tracked artillery piece is designed for - that and the ability to keep up with the armoured advance.
Having watched how long it takes a modern 105mm gun to unhitch, deploy, get ammo ready, lay the gun etc. I'd a say that towed artillery is at a considerable disadvantage compared with tracked artillery - especially vehicles like Wespes or M7 Priests etc.
It could be argued that they carried less artillery than their towed counterparts of course but we getting into another level of abstraction...
From your first comment it's the SP gun, being mobile, is the one least likely to be ready to fire! I can only point to the numerous battles where the guns are ready to fire support when called. Also, the comms links established before the battle mean that they'd know who was able to support. And as I be said, Pete Jones admitted it was just there to make then different. Not based in any actual combat accounts. All guns take time to come into action. I watched mortars firing from the back of APCs and it seemed to take an age to fire at a target they could see! In our group we've never bothered with the modifier and simply use the FAO cv, and then -1 for smoke.
To use the difference when the arty is deployed and ready, or has already fired it is very odd.
Imagine a 25 pdr regt firing scheduled support, then later the FAO requests them to fire - the rules assume that they're on the move! Like I said, they're all in a state of perpetual motion never ever able to come to rest, fire
and then stay there.
The SP gun might carry less ammo, but it has supply and ammo trucks you'd hope.
The difference in game terms is the armour, so tougher vs CB fire.
Thanks Mark
Now I don't want to waste your time - so feel free to leave it as this point if I am just being stupid -
But Im feeling like im reading a different set of rules to you here!
:)
Reference your two points below on Tracked ability - where is this in the rulebook please? ..That's what im trying to understand -
"(1) It adds a -1 to the FAO CV when ordering (as the unit is assumed to be more ready to fire - not having to notionally deploy)
(2) It adds a +1 to the CV for an enemy FAO ordering a counter-battery strike as the Tracked units are assumed not to need to redeploy to move off quickly after firing."
On (1) : Maybe a reference to the table on p47 for Requesting Art Support? Where this is a +1 (not -1) for an FAO requesting support if ALL units are self-propelled (defined as having a move value...nothing to do with Tracked ability). Perhaps this table was meant to be updated to refer to Tracked ability - but that didn't happen?
On (2) : No idea here. There is a Counter-Battery fire benefit to defender - whereby self-propelled guns are harder to hit (nothing to do with CV though). The Tracked ability definition on p79 sheds no light.
I'm wondering if the intention of Tracked here is different to the published rules?
Finally - ref Exposed ability ....Im saying that some off-table self-propelled units have this in the Lists ...and some do not. Sounds like you are saying none should - so thats a change to the lists thats needed - and clears this up
Thanks again
Adam
We'll pick this up Alan
But the principle that Self-propelled and Tracked can be interchangeable as far as counter-battery is concerned should be taken as read, as nodoubt there are probably some wheeled (self propelled) artillery units that should be covered.
Exposed should apply as standard to all off-table artillery units except where specified in the list (we'll sort this out) as again it makes the not exposed ones less vulnerable
Thanks