Hey,
I've been toying with samples in the smaller scales to get into some horse and musket big battles. One of the 2mm samples I picked at random was a six rank block of 48 infantry.
Out of curiosity, did anyone in the horse and musket period fight with units that deep?
The samples may end up in a 2mm pike and shot army where that depth was common, but wondered if any of the fine forum folk would know of any armies in the period with infantry that depth? Possibly right at the start of the period?
Cheers,
Matthew
I think in the very early period up to the start of the WSS.
Yeah, Great Northern War perhaps, right at the transition period away from pike and shot and into eighteenth century warfare.
I may be wrong (in which case no doubt Mollinary will correct me), but I believe the Austrian 'battalion mass' was formed of six companies each deployed in a 3-rank line, but closed up one behind the other to form an 18-deep mass. This formation certainly persisted in use until 1848; can't remember if it was in vogue for 1866 Stosstaktik as well.
Therefore stick three of your 6-rank blocks behind each other, eight abreast, and voila - a whole Austrian 1200-man battalion at 1:1.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
Very interesting, thanks Chris. That would be quite a sight to see at 1:1! Haven't quite settled on what war I'll do, currently pondering Franco Prussian, but Austria might be an option too.
According to Chandler's Marlborough As Military Commander, the French are said to have used 4 to 5 rank deep lines up to as late as 1705 and the Russians, in the Great Northern War (1700-21), used 4 rank deep lines (some contemporary prints even indicating 5). So, I'm guessing the block(s) you chose at random are designed (as Chris alluded to) to represent deeper formations like field or attack columns. (
p.s. if the provider is Irregular Miniatures, I know that they also sell 2 and 3 rank blocks for this period.
Quote from: mmcv on 30 April 2019, 12:15:21 PM
Very interesting, thanks Chris. That would be quite a sight to see at 1:1! Haven't quite settled on what war I'll do, currently pondering Franco Prussian, but Austria might be an option too.
I am a big fan of FPW, but both sides are in blue - if you're going for 2mm, an Austrian army in white could be advantageous.
Best of luck with your project!
Chris
That would make sense Westmarcher, six ranks and eight files could well be for combined attack formations.
It was indeed irregular, I got a mix of 2mm to see how I liked painting at that scale, so got a dense block, some skirmishers, cavalry, etc. Just a couple of each. Along with a couple or 6mm Franco Prussians to see how I liked that scale. And of course some 10mm to round out the order and to avoid the extra £2 under £20 fee!
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 30 April 2019, 12:34:18 PM
I am a big fan of FPW, but both sides are in blue - if you're going for 2mm, an Austrian army in white could be advantageous.
Best of luck with your project!
Chris
Yeah that's what I was thinking so was exploring 6mm as well as you'll get a bit more distinction there even with similar colours. My knowledge on the period is relatively limited at this point (I tend to pick a period to learn more about it as I go) so the field of choice is wide open!
And of course picking a rule set....I wonder what rule set would be good for playing big battles... 8)
Quote from: mmcv on 30 April 2019, 02:09:59 PM
And of course picking a rule set....I wonder what rule set would be good for playing big battles... 8)
;)
There are no earlier formations in 6 ranks as such, they disappeared in the late 1670's/early 1680's. Some armies used 4 or 5 ranks in theory from 1680 but often less in practice. There are no field or attack columns at this time. Just line and march column but there is a 'doubled line'.
It was common to 'double' when manoeuvring at this time. This was to change to double the number of ranks you fought in to make it easier to move when out of danger. So a 3 rank 'doubled' for movement would be in 6 ranks, a 4 rank unit would be in 8 ranks, etc. Unfortunately the blocks you have, I also have some as well for earlier armies, are still not that useful because they also maintained the same frontage and doubled both the number of ranks and the gap between the files. So in short it should be twice as wide with gaps between the files.
I did find one reference to the Swedish occasionally using six ranks in the Great Northern, though as you say, generally on a wider frontage.
I only got a few of them so they will see use for an earlier period no doubt. If I enjoy 2mm for horse and musket I'm sure I'll do 30YW or the like in the future. In some ways the scale well suited to pike and shot given the distinctive shapes for the formations. I recall someone else on the forum doing that and it looking well.
Yes sometimes units would use a different number of ranks but not generally. On the Swedes in the GNW, and at Fraustadt which is probably your reference, remember they have pikes.
On 2mm for earlier or indeed generally. I have 2mm ECW and TYW which as you say let you model the formations, but be warned the formations might not be as you think.
I have also started a project to do early 18th century at 1 to 1 in 2mm, not the 1 to 10 or so scale suggested earlier. So a 1200 man unit will have 1200 figures and not the 150 or so suggested. These are with 3D printed figures. In this case with 400 to 600 man battalions with 400 to 600 figures on a 18cm base.
Yeah GNW seems a bit fuzzy between P&S and H&M, right at the changeover period. Not a conflict I know much about beyond a little googling and wiki crawling.
Quote from: Hwiccee on 01 May 2019, 08:55:32 AM
On 2mm for earlier or indeed generally. I have 2mm ECW and TYW which as you say let you model the formations, but be warned the formations might not be as you think.
What do you mean by not as I think? As in the models don't match the historical formations?
Quote
I have also started a project to do early 18th century at 1 to 1 in 2mm, not the 1 to 10 or so scale suggested earlier. So a 1200 man unit will have 1200 figures and not the 150 or so suggested.
Will be interested to see how this turns out. 1:1 is certainly doable at 2mm but that's going to be an epic project. Will be good to see how they turn out on a 3d printer. Presumably you've done some test prints?
Bit of FPW:
2mm Prussians
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1861/29597731627_9920289081_z.jpg)
10mm Prussians
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4781/25853312657_e31f4a1255_z.jpg)
Couldn't find any 6mm photos.
Looks great Leman. The 2mm scenics are quite tempting given you can represent entire towns quite easily.
Having played at the three scales which is your favourite for the FPW?
I'm also looking at Austro Prussian and Crimea as options too. Have ordered BBB and BBEB so will see if any other scenarios tickle me from them as well.
Quote from: mmcv on 01 May 2019, 09:10:45 AM
Yeah GNW seems a bit fuzzy between P&S and H&M, right at the changeover period. Not a conflict I know much about beyond a little googling and wiki crawling.
Yes and indeed the whole period up to 1720 is really more P&S than H&M. Even in the West most armies used pikes in the early stages of the WSS. People are often fooled by the uniforms which look very H&M but everything else is a lot more like P&S.
QuoteWhat do you mean by not as I think? As in the models don't match the historical formations?
No I meant more that people often think they are still using the classic Tercios and similar at this time - the big square with 4 shot blocks on each corner. I didn't use the 'P&S' 2mm from Irregular to make units. Instead I used the 6 rank blocks you have and similar pike blocks and then constructed units from them. In some cases this involved filing down blocks & gluing them together to make bigger blocks.
Quote
Will be interested to see how this turns out. 1:1 is certainly doable at 2mm but that's going to be an epic project. Will be good to see how they turn out on a 3d printer. Presumably you've done some test prints?
Yes I have done some tests but that is all so far. The main problem is even in 2mm 1 to 1 units are massive and so I would need a 35 foot table for my original plan. So I am having a rethink.
I have tried to attach a couple of pictures. One of Irregular P&S units and the other of 1 to 1 3D printed WSS units.
Quote from: Hwiccee on 01 May 2019, 12:52:07 PM
No I meant more that people often think they are still using the classic Tercios and similar at this time - the big square with 4 shot blocks on each corner. I didn't use the 'P&S' 2mm from Irregular to make units. Instead I used the 6 rank blocks you have and similar pike blocks and then constructed units from them. In some cases this involved filing down blocks & gluing them together to make bigger blocks.
Did Tilly and Wallenstein not use the big Tercios still in some of his battles? I know the Dutch and Swedish styles were showing their superiority and use under the Protestant forces, but I'd thought there was still a few of the big bastion Tercios were used by the Catholic League. That might just be the idealised style in the artwork mind you.
Quote
Yes I have done some tests but that is all so far. The main problem is even in 2mm 1 to 1 units are massive and so I would need a 35 foot table for my original plan. So I am having a rethink.
Time for 1mm?
Quote
I have tried to attach a couple of pictures. One of Irregular P&S units and the other of 1 to 1 3D printed WSS units.
They look amazing. I'd thought of using the 2mm stuff as more of a glorified counter to represent huge battles or to play on small table tops, but you've really made them look superb.
The 1:1 just goes to show the sheer numbers of people involved in these battles, something easy to miss when using representative units.
Quote from: mmcv on 01 May 2019, 01:25:52 PM
Did Tilly and Wallenstein not use the big Tercios still in some of his battles? I know the Dutch and Swedish styles were showing their superiority and use under the Protestant forces, but I'd thought there was still a few of the big bastion Tercios were used by the Catholic League. That might just be the idealised style in the artwork mind you.
Tercios continued to be used until 1704 but from circa 1635-40 they were identical to regiments/battalia - i.e. they looked like all other units. Before then they still looked like most other units around but were deeper. Tilly might have used deep units, like the one on the left but the evidence is not clear. The one in the middle was widely used in the early stages including by the Dutch and by Catholic armies not commanded by Tilly. The big 'old style' tercios in art are apparently not used.
Quote
Time for 1mm?
I think not :) In 2mm they still look something like figures and a unit but much smaller you might as well use a counter.
Quote
They look amazing. I'd thought of using the 2mm stuff as more of a glorified counter to represent huge battles or to play on small table tops, but you've really made them look superb.
The 1:1 just goes to show the sheer numbers of people involved in these battles, something easy to miss when using representative units.
Thanks for the kind comment and the last part was what I had in mind. I intend to do a real historical battle at 1 to 1 as this should really show some of the realities of the period. It is though not very good from a gaming point of view as even for relatively small battles you need a large table. So I will mainly be sticking with my 10mm for most things :)
The ECW/TYW units are scaled down and so more user friendly - a unit is a 'brigade' and so most battle are on 6 by 4 tables. I created them when developing a rules set but now I am replacing them with something more visual.
Quote from: Hwiccee on 01 May 2019, 03:18:04 PM
Tercios continued to be used until 1704 but from circa 1635-40 they were identical to regiments/battalia - i.e. they looked like all other units. Before then they still looked like most other units around but were deeper. Tilly might have used deep units, like the one on the left but the evidence is not clear. The one in the middle was widely used in the early stages including by the Dutch and by Catholic armies not commanded by Tilly. The big 'old style' tercios in art are apparently not used.
I think not :) In 2mm they still look something like figures and a unit but much smaller you might as well use a counter.
Thanks for the kind comment and the last part was what I had in mind. I intend to do a real historical battle at 1 to 1 as this should really show some of the realities of the period. It is though not very good from a gaming point of view as even for relatively small battles you need a large table. So I will mainly be sticking with my 10mm for most things :)
The ECW/TYW units are scaled down and so more user friendly - a unit is a 'brigade' and so most battle are on 6 by 4 tables. I created them when developing a rules set but now I am replacing them with something more visual.
Good to know, thanks. I've been working on ECW in 10mm so have plenty of experience with the Dutch style formations anyway!
Out of interest what frontage did your 1:1 troops end up at? Hard to say from the close up photo.
I'd probably aim for user friendly units in 2mm so I can field a large force in a normal table area, or even make some sort of portable wargame setup.
I'll no doubt do a H&M project in 10mm in future but just want to dip my toes in the water and I've had a notion for a while to try the small scale stuff.
mmcv: The 1:1 infantry are on a 18cm frontage per battalion. The cavalry are on a 9cm frontage per squadrons. At the moment I have files for infantry units of 400, 500 or 600 men and in 3 or 4 ranks. The cavalry also have variants -100, 125 or 150 man squadrons with 3 or 4 troops.
This means you can squeeze 10 battalions on the table & supporting cavalry/artillery on a 6 by 4 table - assuming they are in 2 lines and packed in. Realistically probably less than this.
For user friendly units one of the attractions for me was it was portable. The rules are for large battles which help but I have enough figures to do any ECW/TYW battle in a standard office box file. I have printed mats for 'terrain' that fold up small. So the whole set up is extremely portable.
Good luck on your project.
Thanks Hwiccee!
Quote from: mmcv on 01 May 2019, 11:46:52 AM
Looks great Leman. The 2mm scenics are quite tempting given you can represent entire towns quite easily.
Having played at the three scales which is your favourite for the FPW?
I'm also looking at Austro Prussian and Crimea as options too. Have ordered BBB and BBEB so will see if any other scenarios tickle me from them as well.
I really don't have a favourite scale. I find the bigger battles in the likes of BBB work best with 6mm, but some have very complex scenic requirements and these are best represented in 2mm/3mm scale. !0mm is great for battalion level games like FoB2 and From Shako to Coalscuttle.
I am going to be doing the !866 war in 2mm simply for convenience. Although not technically accurate my Austrian infantry will be in white to easily differentiate them from the Prussians. I have already done BBB Langensalza in this scale. It was popular down the club and has been played three times.
Yeah my scenery/terrain collection is essentially nil at present. This isn't a big deal with ancients where wide open plains were common battle grounds but for later conflicts they're obviously much more important. 2mm seems like it would be easy to put these scenic elements together compared to making scenery even for 10mm. I'll get there one day with 10mm, will need plenty of hedges for my ECW stuff of course, but want a smallish, cheap project I can get on the table quickly for later this year as that pesky real life business is pretty busy at the moment and will be for a while to come!
Very small scale scenery has the same problem as figures, i.e. inconsistency in scale. Irregular's original 2mm buildings are very small indeed, but the later IK range are slightly bigger, and fit well with Brigade Models small scale scenery. There is more consistency in 3mm between Peter Pig, Paper Terrain and TBM.