Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leman on 08 December 2018, 03:00:38 PM

Title: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Leman on 08 December 2018, 03:00:38 PM
Already today I have come across two mentions of wargaming and bad backs: once on one of Norm's blogs, and again when I came across mention of tables that could be raised in height. Already having a table, and also usually ending up with a bad back after a game, I am going to search out something my dad had about ten years ago - it was a cheap but neat system of four raisers to go under the legs of a bed to raise it up. Anyone else have this problem or tried ways to solve or alleviate it?
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 08 December 2018, 03:16:32 PM
**** me. ;)

You lot whinge about just leaning over a table.....I have to almost double myself up to make the masters of the little men for you to play with.....And I do this eight hours, plus, every frigging day.
Fifty two weeks a year.....Holidays are something that happens to other people.

Doesn't help that the thirteen year old (well...that's what she looks like) Doc has taken me off as many of the prescription opiates as she can.

Cheers - Mr Grumpy (I hurt)
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Steve J on 08 December 2018, 04:13:53 PM
I play on a 4' x 4' table 95% of the time, set up on a standard kitchen dining table. This hasn't caused me any problems. When I used to play at a club on fold up tables, this was more of an issue because they were lower, as were the chairs. So raising the height of the board will certainly help, but not solve the problem of a bad back. Like Phil, my day job can often involve long periods bent over a bench, which  really does cause problems!
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Norm on 08 December 2018, 04:43:08 PM
For boardgames that are 1 map or less, I sit at the table.

For two mappers or anything with figures I stand at a raised set of temprary tables - though in short sessions.

Basically I have a number of aluminium pasting tables that have extendable legs, allowing the surface to be put at 37½" high. I then rest these tables on a pair of skates / skids that take the table to just over 40" high, I find this significantry reduces strain on the lower back as one does not have to bend over or into the table so much. I would put the skates on top of the table instead and rest the boards on them, but my boards are only 6mm MDF for lightness and they would likely belly, though adding a third central skate might stop that. I had also though of adding upside down plant pots (plenty) to the table top and then boarding on top of them.

The skates are simply made from that square plastic down pipe stuff that runs from house guttering, taking the water from the gutter to the grid. They are surprisingly sturdy, though I squirted some of that expanding foam stuff down mine, to add strength and to make each open end insect / spider proof, as they are kept in the garage until needed.

It also helps that I have cut my table width down to 42" so reaching to the middle is OK, the length can either be 4' or 6', so I have two pair of skates, one set for each size.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 December 2018, 05:10:03 PM
I spend most of a battle in a chair. Only the packing stage seems a strain.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Orcs on 08 December 2018, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 December 2018, 05:10:03 PM
I spend most of a battle in a chair. Only the packing stage seems a strain.

So you are a true "Armchair General"  :)
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 December 2018, 07:36:13 PM
Gets us all sooner or later.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Orcs on 09 December 2018, 12:52:20 AM
Quote from: Techno on 08 December 2018, 03:16:32 PM
**** me. ;)


I have to almost double myself up to make the masters of the little men for you to play with.....And I do this eight hours, plus, every frigging day.

So by your own admission you make the little men.

A number of the forum have bad backs when they play with the little men you make,  Therefore the logical conclusion is that you are the root cause of their bad backs.

Leon is the secondary cause of their bad backs because he is the dealer in little men.

Gentlemen I think we need to contact "I sue 4U" the injuries lawyer specialising in Leisure related injuries.   ;D ;D

The basis of our claim is that the little men are heavy and contain lead.  This means that we have to sit for hours painting them to avoid lead poisoning when we use them.
Collected together they make a heavy box that we have to carry to our gaming tables, causing us to hurt our backs
We then have to spend hours bent over play the game.

They do not come with a health warning stating that they may cause lead poisoning if unpainted or that by sitting for hours painting them to avoid poisoning you get a bad back.
Neither is there a warning that leaning over a table playing with them could be bad for your back .

They should also came with a warning about not handling them if your pregnant or have recently made someone pregnant, or abuse yourself without washing your hands after handling them. ;D


Should be an open and shut case as we have a written "confession" from Techno that he makes the cause of our bad backs.  ;D





 
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Steve J on 09 December 2018, 07:50:26 AM
I think we are in Group Claim territory here. We just need our American cousins to start the case... ;) ;D
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 09 December 2018, 08:12:34 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 09 December 2018, 12:52:20 AM

A number of the forum have bad backs when they play with the little men you make,  Therefore the logical conclusion is that you are the root cause of their bad backs.
 

I hadn't thought of that.  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 December 2018, 08:25:16 AM
And no doubt also the cause of numerous knife wounds and much poor eyesight..... :d :d
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Womble67 on 09 December 2018, 12:13:43 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 09 December 2018, 08:25:16 AM
And no doubt also the cause of numerous knife wounds and much poor eyesight..... :d :d

Yeah fortunately I have a habit of cutting myself, the joys of wargaming

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Leman on 09 December 2018, 04:57:42 PM
I located the furniture risers on Amazon, and not too much for a set of four. Unfortunately my table has six legs so I had to order two sets.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 09 December 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Practical suggestions for those with back ailments (From one who has been there)

At the Table:
1. Try to alternate between sitting and standing.
2. A higher table, or lowered height-adjustable chair (easier to find) can help.
3. Try to avoid tables greater than 5 feet wide - it was the stretching over to move the little guys and measure ranges that really did for me (10mm are helpful here since you can play a condensed scale unlike the poor benighted 28mm fanboy).
4. Avoid lifting too much heavy stuff (Lead) - again 10mm is a significant winner against the "Heroic" scales (You know who you are).

In General:
1. When I reached a certain age, my body started complaining about periods of inactivity, in my case a sciatica attack, helped by a nice physio who showed me some Pilates type exercises to help maintain "core strength".
2. If the table is so large that you must lean over, manoeuvre yourself upright again before leaning to another part of the table - nothing worse than twisting sideways when leant over.

Away from the table. Other situations can aggravate the same problems:
1. Stand up and stretch yourself to full height every 15 minutes at a computer screen
2. Same for TV screen - the Freeview channels are helpful in this as they schedule an ad-break every 15 minutes.
3. Should probably do the same when painting, but I honestly find I drop into "The zone" and 2 hours can pass as the little men move from the unpainted to painted piles.

Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Leman on 09 December 2018, 05:11:31 PM
All useful advice - thanks Steve.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Terry37 on 09 December 2018, 06:35:23 PM
Bad backs are not a problem with HOTT - you only need a 24' x 24' board!

As for attorneys, may I recommend Dewey, Cheatem and Howe as I hear hey are very good!!!

Terry
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 09 December 2018, 07:11:52 PM
Or, maybe, Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Runne ? ;)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Orcs on 09 December 2018, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 09 December 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Practical suggestions for those with back ailments (From one who has been there)

At the Table:
1. Try to alternate between sitting and standing.
2. A higher table, or lowered height-adjustable chair (easier to find) can help.
3. Try to avoid tables greater than 5 feet wide - it was the stretching over to move the little guys and measure ranges that really did for me (10mm are helpful here since you can play a condensed scale unlike the poor benighted 28mm fanboy).
4. Avoid lifting too much heavy stuff (Lead) - again 10mm is a significant winner against the "Heroic" scales (You know who you are).

In General:
1. When I reached a certain age, my body started complaining about periods of inactivity, in my case a sciatica attack, helped by a nice physio who showed me some Pilates type exercises to help maintain "core strength".
2. If the table is so large that you must lean over, manoeuvre yourself upright again before leaning to another part of the table - nothing worse than twisting sideways when leant over.

Away from the table. Other situations can aggravate the same problems:
1. Stand up and stretch yourself to full height every 15 minutes at a computer screen
2. Same for TV screen - the Freeview channels are helpful in this as they schedule an ad-break every 15 minutes.
3. Should probably do the same when painting, but I honestly find I drop into "The zone" and 2 hours can pass as the little men move from the unpainted to painted piles.



Good advice here.

Only 2 hours when in the "zone" I have been known to sit and paint in the "zone"  all day
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 11 December 2018, 10:21:04 PM
Quote from: Orcs on 09 December 2018, 07:20:37 PM
Good advice here.

Only 2 hours when in the "zone" I have been known to sit and paint in the "zone"  all day

I have adapted my approach to painting.
I used to sit there painting whatever bits seemed most interesting.
Now I engage in organised sessions of 30 minutes or one hour, with a focus on whole units, or groups of whole units.

For example:
Splash flesh colour paint all over the mostly naked tribal warriors. Can probably manage 4 units of 12 - two coats, one hour.
Paint mounted unit's horses in a variety of lightbrown, dark brown, black and grey - 4 units of 6, one hour.
Paint saddle cloth and harness on same horses - 6 horses, 30 minutes.

Notice form the examples that I schedule smaller batches and shorter sessions for the "detail work".
I've noticed my neck, jaw and shoulders get a lot more tense when I'm working on detail, so I keep the sessions short.
There's no rule against having several sessions in a day, but I try to schedule a 15 minute tea break in between.
I also change the water and giv the brushes a good wash between sessions.

By ensuring that whole units (notice my units are rather small) are at the same state of progress, I find I get a lot done.

I can't say whether this will work for other painters, but you are most welcome to give it a try, and discuss your results here.
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: paulr on 11 December 2018, 11:39:12 PM
I use a similar approach with batches of  units and it works very well for me :)

I find doing all of each items in one go really speeds things up and I get into a flow knowing how to hold the brush etc for each figure...
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Norm on 12 December 2018, 07:07:54 AM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 11 December 2018, 10:21:04 PM

I try to schedule a 15 minute tea break in between.

One of the many physio's that I have visited told me that the worst thing for 'anybody' is a comfy chair, because the sitter then tends NOT to move for too long. For reasons of blood circulation and overall management of joint / muscle / tendon pain, she suggested getting out of the chair (for example) every time the TV adverts come on ...... something that of itself and for its own sake seems a good thing :-)

The secret seems to be to move or take a break before any stiffness pains start.

There is some new thinking on pain that suggests that the brain knows what activities bring pain on, so the brain starts the pain earlier in an effort to avoid the very thing that brings on pain - the significance of this is that if you repeatedly do a thing to the point of pain,you in effect through memory, train the brain to bring pain on earlier, the mirror of that is to stop before pain generally starts and instead train the brain to understand that the said activity is not harmful, so lots of little sessions proves to be better than fewer longer sessions.

Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 13 December 2018, 06:41:20 AM
Agreed, Norm.

I DO tend to move fairly regularly when I'm pushing putty about.

With the 10mm figures, I have to mix an awful lot of small batches of green stuff, throughout the day.

Each time I have to mix up 'the next lot' I get up and either move to the PC for a few minutes, or do some other little chore.
I know I've mentioned before, that effectively, I spend one working day in the week mixing putty .....Especially with the wee men, as the putty doesn't stay 'nicely workable' at the really small scales for very long.

Cheers - Phil



Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: petercooman on 13 December 2018, 10:10:03 AM
Must admit, although i'm only 33, back pains start to hit more and more lately. admitted, work is to blame for most of it, as i sometimes work with pretty heavy stuff. (i'm a medium-high voltage cable preparator)

When i get in trouble, usually after a day or two of unwinding cables from cable drums, i gravitate more to boardgames and painting instead of bigger games. Helps to keep you less strained when you can sit down to play.

Good ones are memoir, the great war, d&d adventure system etc... But some wargames also lend itwself to this: deadzone, Song of blades and heroes on the smaller scale (so a 2" by 2" board)


ps:

note that by cable drum i don't mean this:

(http://www.helukabel.com/images/content/de/ge/power/2016-02/kabelmat-01_image_content.jpg)


but this
(http://www.autoguideequipment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CableDrumSpreadeebarx800.jpg)

Don't see me unwinding those by hand until i'm 67!!
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 13 December 2018, 10:22:40 AM
That DOES look like it's a heavy job. X_X

I wouldn't last two minutes trying to pull  cable that away from the drum. (Let alone doing anything else with it.)
Biggest 'cables' I had to deal with, when I worked for British Telecomm (a lifetime ago) were about 5mm in diameter.....and composed mostly of light plastic.

Mind you, I am almost twice your age, Peter...But take care, youth, otherwise you'll pay for it in later life.

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: FierceKitty on 13 December 2018, 12:10:59 PM
http://www.poetrybyheart.org.uk/poems/you-are-old-father-william/

or, with illustrations...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_Old,_Father_William
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Techno on 13 December 2018, 12:38:24 PM
Go away !  :P

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: petercooman on 13 December 2018, 10:31:32 PM
Quote from: Techno on 13 December 2018, 10:22:40 AM

Mind you, I am almost twice your age, Peter...But take care, youth, otherwise you'll pay for it in later life.

Cheers - Phil

I know, that's why i go to get coffee regularly at work, that doesn't strain my back  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wargaming and the bad back.
Post by: Womble67 on 14 December 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Quote from: petercooman on 13 December 2018, 10:10:03 AM
Must admit, although i'm only 33, back pains start to hit more and more lately. admitted, work is to blame for most of it, as i sometimes work with pretty heavy stuff. (i'm a medium-high voltage cable preparator)


There's no wonder you're starting with a bad back

Take care

Andy