Anyone finding the fuss a bit GWish (Given WG's provenance I shouldn't be surprised). Creating a fanfare about Gold covered signed copies and pre-order dates without saying how much this is all going to cost strikes me as a bit odd. Will wait until Warfare to see how it pans out, how it's reviewed, and whether there are any copies at reduced price.
As a big fan of the Warmaster games engine: fantasy,ancients and the BKC, CWC & FWC series I bought BP1 with high hopes when it first came out
After playing 3 games of BP I was very dissatisfied with it. I can understand what the authors were trying to achieve but it does nothing for me
I doubt if BP2 will be any different
At the Tring Club we tend to play lots of different rules. However one thing we all seem to have in common is that if a rule set works we stick with it. If a newer edition comes out it has to be significantly better for us to change. So I expect BP2 will not get a look in
Consequently we are still playing
Fire and Fury Brigade Level
Dsytopian Wars edition 1
AK47 Edition 2
BKC 2 (we may look at BKC 4)
WRG 5th edition Ancients
WRG Gush 2nd Ediotion Rennaisance
No we are not really playing the last two
Quote from: Leman on 22 August 2018, 08:17:00 AM
Anyone finding the fuss a bit GWish (Given WG's provenance I shouldn't be surprised). Creating a fanfare about Gold covered signed copies and pre-order dates without saying how much this is all going to cost strikes me as a bit odd. Will wait until Warfare to see how it pans out, how it's reviewed, and whether there are any copies at reduced price.
The normal version will probably retail at £30 like the original, as I understand it. The collector's edition is clearly a clever marketing ploy, which WG are so good at - hence they are one of the biggest games companies out there. The lack of pricing is odd - an oversight hopefully. But you can't buy it online without a price!
We like BP at our club, but I can understand why some folks don't. It does have its issues, but the great thing is the basic framework. If you don't like it, tweak it 'til you do.
One issue which I hope is fixed is the basic framework. The problem for me is that the basic framework is heavily disguised by the verbiage and lack of rules cohesion, i.e there's a bit about this on page 23, then it crops up again on page 57. Think it is either Hail Caesar of Pike and Shotte where the basic rules were summarised and set out logically at the back. Hopefully the new BP will get this treatment, and also a much more user friendly play sheet that is separate from the book. Spine bending and photocopying a £30 book is not a great ploy.
Leman, they may well add a summary at the back, they have done that for the new rules in the Black Powder ACW supplement.
When I got BP1 the first thing I did was write BP-lite. I read the rules and wrote a word doc as I went summarising the key elements of the rules, not the blurb. I got it down to a 4 page document. That's what I refer to. I even included refs to the pages in the main book.
I've just done the same with Rommel - and got it summarised in 3 pages. I'll do the same with BP2 and pick out the rule differences. There are also a lot more scenarios in BP2 picking out era specific ideas from the supplements that BP1 (being the first book in the series) couldn't do.
Bloody Hell! Collector's edition £75!!!!
I've checked and it's ok. You don't have to buy it. ;D
The normal version is the same price (£30) as the original BP. So WG have declined to put the price up.
the fact that it is being discussed here means the marketing machine is doing something right and raising awareness of product, they are not a £10 million pound organisation by accident.
I am guessing that BP2 will adopt several of the good ideas that have cropped up in the various modules, subtle and easily adopted changes that will make it a better experience. Hopefully it will be a bit less wordy / flowery, but it is what it is.
There will obvioulsy be an audience for the £75 book and they will no doubt enjoy their spend and I think £30 for a rulebook that you will play often and for several years is OK. There are people paying £18 for a bottle of Vodka (or insert favourite tipple here) and it just cost me £148 to get a tyre sorted out, so everything is sort of relative, just ask my lad how much a typical night out costs him!!!!!! ..... though I'm happy as I did just snatch a bit of a bargain at HMV, Blondies 'AutoAmerican' on vinyl is down to £13 - Rapture!
Well, as you say Norm, the £30 version is what I would consider. I would use it mostly as an ACW set long with Glory Hallelujah. But I would still need to see what the gubbins inside are like before shelling out.
I will wait and see/read what the differences, if any, are between the two books. Given how often I play BP, I'm most likely to stick with the current version.
I did ponder Rommel before I bought it. At £32 and 1/2 the size of BP I really thought about it. Plus the actual printed portions are about 1/2 of each page due to the huge borders
Now that I have it I'm content to try the rules. The stats and mechanisms look interesting, but the bttn organisations are way off - especially for the British.
Have pre-ordered a copy at £26.50. Have always enjoyed playing BP and find the optional additions very useful.
After years of playing many wargames with many rules that were supposed to be the next accurate representation of certain periods, I found BP a refreshing and enjoyable change. Not for everyone but it is what it is.
Quote from: Leman on 22 August 2018, 04:54:56 PM
Bloody Hell! Collector's edition £75!!!!
There's one born every day....
Yes indeed, and the sad thing is some will end up on Ebay at inflated prices.
Hmmm - investments, e-bay, now I'm really getting a fancy - but wait, I also need the collectors edition of BKC-4
:)
Is that the one with the platinum embossed Crusader on the cover, the gold leaf page edging and the handy silver thread page markers to enable quick reference? I believe it also comes with two solid silver 10mm dice.
I just don't get it - why are people apparently disconcerted by the cost of a book that that they do not want?
The normal version is still the same price as the old one.
It does seem a little ironic to me that we're on the Pendraken website discussing this. I bought my copy of BKC3 over a year ago and still haven't got a useable set of rules.
I bet none of us have moaned at Aston Martin about the price of a new DB9?
Are you American? This is irony.
Uhhhh, no. :o
British
Did you write Glory Hallelujah? - if so it is far and away the most impressive supplement in the BP stable (although have to admit to not being a big Napoleonic fan - so not read those) and has become the go to for my smaller scale regimental battles. And yes, it is the standard version of BP2 that I would consider.
Yes, that was me. :D but I don't work for WG.
Glad you like it - obviously my favourite 19th century gameing era.
BP2 is going to be different, but not hugely, more like tweaks and clarifications. There's a nice Kernstown scenario.
Tease!
Enjoyed the Glory Hallelujah book, I hope one of the changes to BP2 is the inclusion of your GH rule that if you make more than one move, you can't fire. I know some gamers have changed the sequence of play to put fire before movement, but I prefer your solution.
I'm obviously not expecting you to comment on that. Look forward to a Kernstown scenario.
Yes that Kernstown scenario will give me a chance to get my Jackson figure on the table again.
Bought it, hoping for a rules summary, a few fixes and a bit less of the cod Victorian gent' cobblers.
I like Black Powder.
The fixes are rather fewer than I expected, and some don't fix the issues they set out to address.
It may be me, but the cod-Victorian cobblers appears to have increased.
No rules-summary A-la Hail Caesar.
I've a sour taste that reminds me of the time we were expected to buy all the records we already owned but now on CD.
I bought version 1 for 16 euros at Crisis, but I'm thinking about restyling the whole thing as a flow chart.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 November 2018, 06:34:55 PM
I've a sour taste that reminds me of the time we were expected to buy all the records we already owned but now on CD.
Even better / worse ! you can buy them all on vinyl again. :'(
As for BP2, on reflection, it just feels like a ruleset that hit one of it's print run endings and rather than just do another run, they decided, 10 years on, to review and do a new edition. What I mean is that BP1 is still fine and that perhaps the audience for the physical BP2 rule set are those who have yet to buy the rules, or those that use and like it so much, that they may want to replace their old book. Perhaps BP2 just needed to supplant BP1 over a period of time, not an overnight replacement.
The idea that BP2 was 'needed' by BP1 owners may have been a misplaced view that fell out of the marketing. I am guessing there are plenty of people eager to pick up a good copy of BP1 for £5 - £10.
The BP fan base may have been better served with a small and concise supplement that outlined the updates to the BP1 audience and then BP fans could choose as and when to do a full ruleset replacement.
Quote from: Norm on 24 November 2018, 05:51:08 AM
Even better / worse ! you can buy them all on vinyl again. :'(
As for BP2, on reflection, it just feels like a ruleset that hit one of it's print run endings and rather than just do another run, they decided, 10 years on, to review and do a new edition. What I mean is that BP1 is still fine and that perhaps the audience for the physical BP2 rule set are those who have yet to buy the rules, or those that use and like it so much, that they may want to replace their old book. Perhaps BP2 just needed to supplant BP1 over a period of time, not an overnight replacement.
The idea that BP2 was 'needed' by BP1 owners may have been a misplaced view that fell out of the marketing. I am guessing there are plenty of people eager to pick up a good copy of BP1 for £5 - £10.
The BP fan base may have been better served with a small and concise supplement that outlined the updates to the BP1 audience and then BP fans could choose as and when to do a full ruleset replacement.
Norm,
You summed up my feelings, far better, more logically and less emotionally than I managed.
Have a like and a +1.
QuoteThe idea that BP2 was 'needed' by BP1 owners may have been a misplaced view that fell out of the marketing. I am guessing there are plenty of people eager to pick up a good copy of BP1 for £5 - £10.
Rather like SAGA 2, which appears to have a few tweaks but not markedly different from the original. I had been keen to have a look at SAGA, but was put off by the price. Searching for second hand copies of the original rules, I came across a brand new copy for £5.00 plus P&P, for a total of £7.71, about the price of an Osprey ruleset these days. So no need to buy any of the supplements as the battleboards will probably do me for the amount of time I will get to play these rules. However it appears most of the original supplements are not compatible with the new rules, so may find these going damned cheap in the future.
Have played 2 games with BP2, no major cahnges, although there are some nice scenarios. Rules are tidied up somewhat, rather than amended.
My major disappointment is the lack of rules summary as in Hail Caesar. A fantastic opportunity squandered for no apparent reason. :-/
Quote from: Leman on 24 November 2018, 08:55:06 AM
My major disappointment is the lack of rules summary as in Hail Caesar. A fantastic opportunity squandered for no apparent reason. :-/
I saw one of the author's videos.
He mentioned a lot of things he wanted to do, but got cut because "Publication deadlines".
Quote from: Leman on 24 November 2018, 08:55:06 AM
My major disappointment is the lack of rules summary as in Hail Caesar. A fantastic opportunity squandered for no apparent reason. :-/
+ 1 for lack of rules summary
Take care
Andy