Hi, I would like to know if there are going to be novelties for the Napoleonic period. Especially to complete the range Waterloo but also for the French, Imperial Guard for example. Thank you very much. ;)
We have got the Dutch-Belgians coming next to complete our Waterloo plans, and then we might be doing some of the minor nations/states for the 1809 period as well.
We do also have some more French cavalry and the Imperial Guard to release, but I do not have a timescale for those yet.
How about some Portuguese figures for the Peninsula War? That seems to be the most obvious gap.
Would the British in Belgic shako work as proxies?
Quote from: parkerm17 on 18 August 2018, 09:16:41 AM
How about some Portuguese figures for the Peninsula War? That seems to be the most obvious gap.
We'll be getting to those at some point, but I think we'd have a riot if we went and started on Peninsular ranges before finishing off 1809 and 1815!
Quote from: Leman on 18 August 2018, 10:03:40 AM
Would the British in Belgic shako work as proxies?
Possibly, but no flank coy types, cacdores or cavalry.
Plus when the Portuguese are in the Berritina the British are in stovepipe, so without Peninsula Brits it's a bit pointless. You can't have one without the other really. As a general rule each British division (normally 2 brigades of 3 bttns each) included a Portuguese brigade (4-5 bttns)
I think it needs a whole new range. :(
Such complications and uniform changes and faff are amongst the reasons I have always found it difficult to get excited about Napoleonics.
Pale shadow of SYW. ;)
Very straightforward period with only the French (as per) putting a fly in the ointment of uniform change.
PS. Lobositz to Leuthen and Olmutz to Torgau by Horace St. Paul are on a cracking deal at Naval and Military Press at the moment. Both volumes together for £25 reduced from £75.
>>PS. Lobositz to Leuthen and Olmutz to Torgau by Horace St. Paul are on a cracking deal at Naval and Military Press at the moment. Both volumes together for £25 reduced from £75.
Many thanks for the tip - I have the first of these and thought it was excellent.
Looks like they also have loads of the Helion books on offer as well. Just need
to rob a bank and they will be mine !
Phil
Thank you for your reply. I asked the question because I would like to get into the Napoleonic rule ESR in 10mm, and I did not want to start the period and not be able to finish it. Especially since I really like your figures and I'm not too much to mix with other brands that they are less beautiful.
That's why I wanted to know if there were other Napoleonic trips. Thanks.
Quote from: Leman on 19 August 2018, 09:52:07 AM
Such complications and uniform changes and faff are amongst the reasons I have always found it difficult to get excited about Napoleonics.
Just think of them as several different early 19th century wars, which is essentially what they were. Lumping them all together as 'Napoleonic' doesn't really work. It is a bit like calling everything between 1850 and 1870 'mid 19th century' or some other all embracing name.
Votes added!
I was also wondering about this. What are people using for 100 days French? Any plans for regular French infantry for the period to be released?
Quote from: lekw on 19 August 2019, 01:48:38 AM
Any plans for regular French infantry for the period to be released?
Other than the Guard types which I need to get done, there's no further plans for specific 1815 French. The differences to the 1809 uniform are so minor that I'm not sure it's worth us getting them sculpted at the moment.
If you continue with the Peninsular expansion as discussed elsewhere then the 'German ally in short tailed coat and shako' will serve pretty well for all Bardin issue French anyway.
That would be extremely useful for a wide range of units. Looking forward to their arrival after what would appear to be a long march (assuming the idea of producing them has even left the depot...).
"The differences to the 1809 uniform are so minor.....". I beg to differ Leon, they are as minor as the differences between the various Mks of Cruiser and Sherman tanks. But, we've had this conversation before ;)
have to agree with John here, trying to do the wars of 1804-15 in one range per nation is akin to doing WWII and refusing to acknowledge there is a difference between 1940 and 1944 or betwen Burma and Normandy. it just won't wash :D
Very broadly most nations go through three significant changes
French - bicorn & long tails - shako & long tails - shako & short tails
Austrian - kasket - helmet - shako
Russia - bicorn - shako 1 - shako 2
Prussia - bicorn - shako [there's always one that don't fit the masterplan!]
Britain - bicorn - stovepipe - belgic
Most of the minor states start off with bicorn or helmet and emerge with shako & short tails or helmet & short tails
Cavalry and artillery likewise change but usually only once or twice.
Within that there's a lot of special variances and unique units but broadly each nation needs 2-3 periods. Sadly the dates don't match up conveniently but mostly you can limit the Napoleonic range to the last two and shift the first to the Revolutionary War range - not perfect but will do
Quote from: Barbarossa on 16 August 2018, 10:53:45 PM
Hi, I would like to know if there are going to be novelties for the Napoleonic period. Especially to complete the range Waterloo but also for the French, Imperial Guard for example. Thank you very much. ;)
How about a wet Irish lad running around waving his arms in the air shouting, "Why, why?" I'm afraid I have always found it a particularly naff film which again put me off Napoleonics as a teenage wargamer.
It should be done by period if it is going to be expanded at all. 1805-1807 for example would cover French, Austrian, Russian and Prussian with few if any variations in uniform needed.
Quote from: Leman on 20 August 2019, 07:24:56 PM
How about a wet Irish lad running around waving his arms in the air shouting, "Why, why?" I'm afraid I have always found it a particularly naff film which again put me off Napoleonics as a teenage wargamer.
Indeed the problem of slapping contemporary morality into period films [any genre] these bits mak me cringe too.
Quote from: Chad on 20 August 2019, 08:07:07 PM
It should be done by period if it is going to be expanded at all. 1805-1807 for example would cover French, Austrian, Russian and Prussian with few if any variations in uniform needed.
Except whilst that works well as a campaign divider all three of those nations are in the midst of evolving uniforms - the French change dramatically part way through, the others continue to slowly change. And even if we can ignore some of the colour variations for a figure range, changes in hats we can't. And that means if you elect to produce a French 1805-07 range you are essentially choosing an 1805 range or an 1806-07 range. For Austria you choose a 1798 range or an 1806 range, etc. And then we can start arguing about the difference between uniform decree dates and uniform supply dates.
Much though I love my 1805 French in bicorn (and I have a sizeable 6mm army) I have to accept that they are not really a commercial option. Better to produce 1806 shako French that will essentially serve as is through to 1812 becuase they'll selve in droves - that's essentially the existing 1809 range and it is the sensible commercial choice. That means that bicorn wearing French get relegated to the 1792-1804 Revolutionary War range, the style won't be quite right for 1805 but close enough if you pick the neater regular options that shoule be available alongside the rag-tag options. And bardin regulation French to 1813-15 which will be commercially competative because (for reasons I find inexplicable) those late campaigns are very popular.
The same for Russia (pre and post 1810), Austria (pre and post 1806) and Prussia (per and post 1808), we need both options to cover the campaigns of 1805-15. We've made a great start with the "1809" range as it stands - an Austrian German fusilier in shako and Hungarian fusilier in helmet would see Austria complete for 1805-15. The next commercial option has to be the additions necessary to plump out the Peninsular options (not my cup of tea but you can't ignore its popularity) which also arounds out the core French 1806-12 options. We have yet to see what the Imperial Guard range looks like, I understand its sitting in the wings awaiting deployment but assuming its reasonably comprehensive all we're left scrabbling for afterward would be Russians (pre and post 1810), pre 1808 Prussians and post 1813 French.
Zippee
I understand the commercial aspects, but would comment as follows on the hats issue:
French - Whilst the shako was authoprised in 1806, I would question if the army actually received them for the 1806-7 campaign. Bearing in mind that the army was based in Germany after the 1805 campaign and did not return to France, it is entirely possible that to issue the new shako to the army was impractical.
Austrian - My understanding is that the shako was initially only issued to a number of Hungarian regiments in 1807 and was not in general issue until 1808. On that basis the raupenhelm for 1805 is OK and indeed is actually in the current 1809 range.
Prussia - This is the biggest problem. Just as the 1806 uniform is distinctly different to the 1808 version, it is also completely different from that of the Revolutionary War.
Russia - The February 1805 shako does not change in any significant detail until 1809 and as such should be valid for 1805-1807.
In 10mm, I have to admit to be unconcerned about minor changes in the general uniform.
Chad
Quote from: Zippee on 21 August 2019, 09:18:49 AM
... And bardin regulation French to 1813-15 which will be commercially competative because (for reasons I find inexplicable) those late campaigns are very popular ....
Particularly 1813-14 which is only two years out of 12 years of wars. At a guess (on 1813-14);
- there were no major changes to the uniforms of the other major powers?
- the greater flexibility of pitting combinations of these powers against the French in any one battle?
- a more equal chance of either side winning?
However, as I pointed out previously the absence of Prussian Reserve Units is an obstacle.
Quote from: Chad on 21 August 2019, 02:55:27 PM
However, as I pointed out previously the absence of Prussian Reserve Units is an obstacle.
I think you can source surrogates for every kind of Prussian Reserve Infantry from the 1815 range. The Hanoverian range, I now see, has infantry in caps. The main impediment, for me anyway, is lack of French line infantry or Young Guard in habit-veste.
Quote from: Zippee on 21 August 2019, 09:18:49 AM
....Much though I love my 1805 French in bicorn (and I have a sizeable 6mm army) I have to accept that they are not really a commercial option. Better to produce 1806 shako French that will essentially serve as is through to 1812 becuase they'll selve in droves - that's essentially the existing 1809 range and it is the sensible commercial choice....
Zippee, There would only be a point in producing Napoleonic French infantry in bicornes if there was an Austerlitz/Jena range of Russians and Prussians. I'm not sure that you are right about viability though - Magister Millitums range would suggest otherwise.. French line infantry were still in bicornes exclusively at Jena and Auerstedt.
I would certainly invest in an 1806 range but I'd rather see the Peninsula done first.
The Austrians are, it seems to me, covered for the entire period by the 1809 range.
Quote from: John Cook on 22 August 2019, 03:22:38 PM
Zippee, There would only be a point in producing Napoleonic French infantry in bicornes if there was an Austerlitz/Jena range of Russians and Prussians. I'm not sure that you are right about viability though - Magister Millitums range would suggest otherwise.. French line infantry were still in bicornes exclusively at Jena and Auerstedt.
I would certainly invest in an 1806 range but I'd rather see the Peninsula done first.
The Austrians are, it seems to me, covered for the entire period by the 1809 range.
Indeed you need the complimentary opponents for any range.
Compared to 1807/12 and 1813/15 French, 1805/06 are the least commercial French was all I was really saying. In the same way that 1806 Prussian are less commercial than 1808/15 or 1805/10 Russian are less commecial than 1811/15. And that has a compound effect because as we said you need the complimentary opponents.
Peninsular next makes the most sense (hopefully alongside the IG)
Almost we need the Austrian/German in shako and Austrian/HHungarian in helmet - that would cover us from Marengo through 1815. Figure wise Austrians are the easiest - the stingy commisariat does us a fvaour in that :D
Quote from: Zippee on 22 August 2019, 07:59:19 PM
Indeed you need the complimentary opponents for any range.
Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 22 August 2019, 11:44:48 PM
Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?
;D
only seems to happen when playing solo
Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.
Quote from: Chad on 23 August 2019, 09:54:32 AM
Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.
But that wasn't what I said - given the choice of producing a French range in bicorns suitable for 1805 through 1806 maybe 1807 and producing a range of French in shako suitable for 1806/07 through 1812 the latter is clearly the sensible commercial decision.
As a result the commercial choice for Russia and Prussia is the late option.
Therefore the 1805-07 options kind of deselect themselves, or at best get left until after all other sub-periods are done. The only think rarer are Scadinavians and Turkish/Persian opposition for Russia
I'm not sure I have a dog in this 'fight' . I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isn't except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963. Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods. I'm fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny. I don't understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult. Is this a 10mm issue that I'm not aware of?
John I don't think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.
Quote from: Chad on 24 August 2019, 07:48:31 AM
The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities.
I think this will be our method going forward with the Naps expansions. It makes sure that what we're doing is viable, and also allows us to get large batches done in one go.
Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...
Quote from: Chad on 24 August 2019, 07:48:31 AM
John I don't think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.
Of course not, hence the inverted commas. I suppose the two manufacturers you allude to would be Magister Militum and Old Glory, neither of which I am familiar with, in the context of their Russian Napoleonic's, enough to comment. My present interest is confined to the early Peninsula.
Quote from: Ben Waterhouse on 24 August 2019, 08:30:48 PM
Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...
I thought Danes were entirely confined to, nay,
defined by, i) vikings; ii) sulky princes given to monologues; iii) sugary buns; iv) mermaids; and v) topless auxilliary traffic cops.
Quote from: John Cook on 23 August 2019, 09:35:15 PM
I'm not sure I have a dog in this 'fight' . I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isn't except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963. Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods. I'm fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny. I don't understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult. Is this a 10mm issue that I'm not aware of?
Pretty sure there's no fight but I don't think we're moving the conversation forward either.
WWII, Napoleonics and Ancients are the three 'Big Periods' and it's always been the case that Romans (Anc), French (Naps) and Germans (WWII) are the big sellers in each. And within that it's Early Imperial Romans, 1812 French and Normandy Germans that sell more than anything else. It's just a wargaming popularity thing and is reflected in those being the most frequently produced ranges. The less popular ranges do eventually arrive, increasingly so in our modern 'Golden Age' but the trend persists.
It's absolutely not just a 10mm thing, it's all figure sizes. It's a general truism that the internet, KS and ease of small specialised business practice is eroding but it's still a general truism.
It's sad but less popular ranges don't get made [or even more commonly don't get fleshed out sufficiently and with opposition - I can think of a number of incomplete Rev War French ranges with no Austrian opposition because "there isn't the demand"] because they're less popular. Without availability those periods don't get played, ergo they remain less popular. It's a self-fulfilling spiral.
I'm not espousing 'make them and players will arrive' because I sadly think most players will continue following well-worn paths anyway. I just find it frustrating :-
More positively, NON-KS would seem to be an excellent model for developing new and supplementary ranges. If there is a demand the customer will step up, if they don't then it's a reasonable conclusion that there isn't a wide spread demand. But, the range may still get made if one or two people buy-in sufficiently. That seems like a good way to get less popular periods into the arena.
Zippee
Agreed.
Just on the French Revolutionary Austrians, what scale are you referring to? I have 15mm and 28mm is presently growing.
Chad
Zippee, Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas.
The difficulties I have are manifold and I'm unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics aren't viable, economic or whatever. You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.
It seems to me that if French Napoleonics are big sellers, as you claim, and I'm sure you are right, then their opponents must be equally big sellers, otherwise there are lots of people out there with no opponents for the French armies. That makes no sense at all.
I would like to see something concrete to persuade me that early Napoleonic ranges are not commercial. I have both armies for Maida in 15mm which must date back to the 1990s. So, some convincing market research, or something more than what seems to be little more than perceptions, seems necessary.
A quick look shows that at least four mainstream 15mm manufactures produce figures to cover the period from 1805 to 1815. I couldn't be bothered to look at 25/28mm manufacturers. So, have these people got it wrong? If they haven't, it is either a perception that early Napoleonics are not commercial, is incorrect or is an issue with 10mm (or a hypothesis I haven't thought of). I don't know which it is but I am confident it is one of them. If I were to bet my pension I'd go for perception since the two mainstream 6mm manufactures cover the entire period from 1803 to 1815 as comprehensively as it is possible to want (perhaps size is an issue after all).
For what it is worth, the last Wargames Illustrated poll resulted in the following:
WW2 – 31%
Napoleonic – 13%
Sc-ifi – 7%
Pike and Shot – 7%
Dark Age – 7%
Ancient – 7%
Modern – 6%
Fantasy – 5%
American Civil War – 4%
Colonial – 4%
Medieval – 3%
Horse and Musket – 3%
American War of Independence – 2%
WW1 – 1%
The non-KS route would certainly be an indication of commercial appeal, among people who use the Pendraken forum anyway. Let's start with the Peninsula.
Eureka go earlier don't they?
Anyway, 1806 Prussians would be in my.list, if I could ever find a decent set of rules.
Quote from: John Cook on 25 August 2019, 05:44:46 PM
Zippee, Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas.
The difficulties I have are manifold and I'm unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics aren't viable, economic or whatever. You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.
Of cocurse its based on perception, there's little else to materially base opinion on.
And I never said Napoleonics are uncommercial - that would be patently absurd, it is one of the Big Three.
I'm mostly unfamiliar with 15mm and 28mm Napoleonic ranges in any detail but I am aware that there are early ranges available. I suspect it is easier to be 'comprehensive' in 6mm and 10mm than the large scales - those uniform details start to increase the variety of sculpts required.
You'll note I specifically called out Rev War ranges in my last post. The two big 6mm options for instance whilst having a very comprehensive Napoleonic range (including French in bicorn) have either no Rev War range or one that consists of French only and the consistent response to "where are the Austrians?" has been "there's no demand for them, it's uncommercial" and that's not opinion, that's pretty much a direct quote from trying to drum up financial backing for an Austrian range to be created. The 10mm options likewise seem very limited - the only range that contains French and Austrians is Pendraken's which would be great if it also contained other essentials like artillery and cavalry . . .
Perception it may be but If I wanted to purchase forces for 1812, the Peninsular or 1815 I'd be spolit for choice in all scales. Start looking for comprehensive rages in the earlier periods and your options rapidly thin out and start looking for Rev War and it's very thin on the ground. Not impossible, so we no longer need to butcher Airfix miniatures by the thousand but there's a definite quantative difference.
What did you mean, then, when you said that 1805 French "are not really a commercial option"? Rhetorical question. I'm not really interested in the French Revolutionary Wars.
As far as most of the gamers I've played with over the last few years have been concerned, the Napoleonic Wars consist of Waterloo, Borodino and The Peninsular War. There may have been some other minor scraps of no importance.
One was even unaware the The Russians and The Prussians were separate entities and not just alternate spellings!
I blame the school system - too much Home Front and not enough Kings and battles :-)
At least they could name those battles of significance.
I've met some twenty somethings who had not heard of WWI. More frightening still some knew nothing of WWII... But I guess they would know stuff I don't, so I can't get too carried away...
Unsurprising but depressing nevertheless. As the 70 anniversary of the outbreak of WW2 approaches next month, one of those surveys that appear from time to time showed that British teenagers are largely ignorant of that conflict. If they don't know about stuff that took place in living memory, there is little chance they will know much about stuff that happened 200 years ago.
Quote from: John Cook on 26 August 2019, 09:57:02 AM
Unsurprising but depressing nevertheless. As the 70 anniversary of the outbreak of WW2 approaches next month, one of those surveys that appear from time to time showed that British teenagers are largely ignorant of that conflict. If they don't know about stuff that took place in living memory, there is little chance they will know much about stuff that happened 200 years ago.
Sorry John, shouldn't that be 80th Anniversary?
Quote from: mollinary on 26 August 2019, 12:10:20 PM
Sorry John, shouldn't that be 80th Anniversary?
No need to apologise. Yes it should, as you very well know.
Quote from: John Cook on 25 August 2019, 10:04:04 PM
What did you mean, then, when you said that 1805 French "are not really a commercial option"? Rhetorical question.
i meant in the context of the broad brush approach of each major nation having three major uniform distinctions - early-mid-late if you like.
And that if then selecting which one of those to produce 1805 French were the least commerically attractive option and would be better folded into a Rev War range
Quote from: John Cook on 25 August 2019, 10:04:04 PM
I'm not really interested in the French Revolutionary Wars.
Kind of backs up what I was saying
So if I understand you correctly, because of significant changes in French uniforms for 1805-1807 it is not worth considering the period, even if the changes in Russian, Prussian and Austrian were either not significant or non-existent.
As for 'backing' the French into the Revolutionary period, that would require an even greater range of opposing armies than 1895-07.
I'm not interested in the French Revolutionary Wars, in the context of this thread, because it is about the Napoleonic Wars, which the Revolutionary Wars are not and I'm not sure I know enough about them to make a contribution. In a gaming context I have no interest in Waterloo but I'm not sure what that backs up.
I remain unconvinced by your arguments about the commercial viability of a range of early French figures, mainly because it is subjective. I concede that you could be right, but the only empirical evidence, I have seen, is that all principal manufacturers of figures, in all scales, all have Third and Fourth Coalition ranges and that is all I have to go on.
Is it time to draw this to a close?
John
That's fine with me as it is not really going anywhere.
fine with me
i don't think its been going anywhere for a while
Good morning and Happy New Year to you all. I wanted to know if there would be anything new about the Napoleonic period in 2020. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Quote from: Barbarossa on 02 January 2020, 02:41:07 PM
Good morning and Happy New Year to you all. I wanted to know if there would be anything new about the Napoleonic period in 2020. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
We'll be running a Not-Kickstarter for a Peninsular expansion, around May-June time I think, covering British, Spanish and Portuguese. We've also got some later French Guard types to get released but I don't have a timescale on that yet.
Quote from: Leon on 04 January 2020, 08:59:31 PM
We'll be running a Not-Kickstarter for a Peninsular expansion, around May-June time I think, covering British, Spanish and Portuguese. We've also got some later French Guard types to get released but I don't have a timescale on that yet.
Count me in for that ta much!
Quote from: Leon on 04 January 2020, 08:59:31 PM
We'll be running a Not-Kickstarter for a Peninsular expansion, around May-June time I think, covering British, Spanish and Portuguese. We've also got some later French Guard types to get released but I don't have a timescale on that yet.
Me too!