You see that title? I'll let you work out what the thread is about.
Seriously, what are the differences?
I must admit I haven't compared these either so cannot comment on the quality and size of the sculpted figures but would expect them to reflect the changes introduced by the 1812 Bardin regulations. For example, under the 1812 regulations, the coat became more of a double breasted jacket with short tails and gaiters no longer extended over the knee, stopping below the knee. The pre-1812 shako should also have a lozenge plate instead of an eagle though many non-regulation varieties existed. However, it wasn't possible to suddenly update every soldier's uniform and some units never got their uniforms until 1813 or 1814 so a mix of styles would not necessarily be out of place.
Just widening that thought (without looking at the ranges) the British introduced the Belgic shako in 1812, the Russians that odd concave shako, the Spanish began to see the introduction of "British" type uniforms and as for the Prussians! Don't ask me about the Prussians.
I would say that the differeneces between the major combatants between 1809 and 1812 would be as significant as the difference between 1940 and 1944.
(https://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/946633/137186951/stock-vector-funny-bomb-vector-illustration-137186951.jpg)
For pity's sake nobody ask about bricoles :-X
I'm mostly interested in French (duh) Austrian and maybe Russian
In 1812 the French see a big change under the Bardin reforms.
This sees the loss of the:
Lozenge style eagles and the introduction of the tricolour
Long thigh length infantry gaiters replaced by shorter knee height ones
Coat with big lapels goes and replaced by the song,e fronted coat with shorter tails and turn backs
Line Grenadier companies are officially stopped from wearing the bearskin - shakosf for all now
Line voligueur coys are officially stopped from wearing the colpack - sharks for all
Cavalry
French introduce same coat as infantry types for chasseurs and Dragoons
Line Lancers appear
Heavy carabiners get their white coats and helmets (had been dark blue and bearskins)
That's just off the top of my head... by 1815 there's almost nowt of the pre-1812 uniform left.
Does the 1809 stuff work for Austerlitz
Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 June 2018, 06:54:58 PM
Does the 1809 stuff work for Austerlitz
The Austrians do mostly although you're lacking in Hungarian fusiliers in helmet. There are other minor distinctions in uniform to do with cut of coat and such but that's the main one.
The French do not - you need bicorn wearing long tailed coats for the French and legere in a mix of bicorne and side-plume shako. Much of the cavalry can do at a push but the infantry headgear is such a big stylistic change. .
And no Russians are available - the 1812 ones are not suitable, again completely wrong headgear. If there was an 1809 Russian range for the 'near-miss' engagements that never got beyond minor skirmish then yes it would be suitable for 1805
In general the 1812 uniforms across the board are distinct from the 1805-11 uniforms. The adoption of French style shako and uniforms across most of the Confederation and Italy exacerbate that. Austria moves from helmet to shako (in transition in 1809, hence Hungarians in shako), Russia moves from tall busch plumed cylindrical shakos to kiwer shakos and full packs, Britain moves from stovepipe to Belgic shako, Spain moves from chaotic to British supplied, Prussia moves from 18th century to 19th century. And that's just infantry headgear, there are similar sweeping changes in the cavalry and artillery as well. Not to mention the changes in formation and unit structure!
Overall in terms of uniform there are three broad eras within the period:
a) Revolution - 1792-1801. casques and bicornes, baggy long tailed coats
b) Early Empire - 1805-07, bicornes and helmets, fitted long tailed coats (somewhat complicated by the French changes in 1806, white uniforms and shako, etc)
c) Late Empire - 1812-15, bell topped shakos, short tail coats (increasingly reduced to trousers, greatcoat and box on head)
1809 happens mid transition, so you get long tailed coats and shako and Austria in helmet and shako
The Peninsular starts mid-transition and is also distinct in that as a side show peripheral campaign it doesn't update as frequently as the main event and retains older styles alongside patched homespun for longer
That said it should be recognised that authorisation of new equipment and actual implementation are two different things, so the French marched into Russia in 1812 overwhelmingly wearing uniforms closer in style to 1809 than the regulation Bardin issue. And as above the armies in Spain were always at the end of a stretched supply line and thus devoid of the latest fashions on the whole. Marmont I think it is with the quote from 1811 "finally the medley is over, no more white coats or bicornes" [paraphrased]
Personally, unless you are a perfectionist, I would recommend picking one era and building forces to match that so that they are 'authentic' but then freely use them to fight engagements set in other eras and theatres. Otherwise you're looking at 3 different armies for most participants to cover the entire period.
Basically I'm torn between Austrians for 09 and Russians for 12.
I'm thinking 09 because I like the lozenge flag to the tricolour.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 23 June 2018, 03:29:31 PM
Basically I'm torn between Austrians for 09 and Russians for 12.
I'm thinking 09 because I like the lozenge flag to the tricolour.
Well 1809 Austrians and French will give you good solid forces to which you can happily add an 1812 Russian force because only the most curmudgeonly type of wargamer will complain about them facing off against 1809 French or 1809 Austrians (the German fusiliers in helmets would be a bit anachronistic but otherwise you're fine - if Germans in shako and Hungarians in helmet were available it would be a complete 1798-1814 range basically). And the French have the lanciers and later carabiniers in their range already, so that's fine as well
And choosing based on which flag you prefer seems as good a way as any other - of course they should only be carrying eagles and fanions but where's the fun in that :)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 June 2018, 04:48:00 PM
I'm mostly interested in French (duh) Austrian and maybe Russian
I haven't seen the ranges in the flesh, but there should be no differences in uniform as far as the French are concerned. The so-called 1812 Bardin uniform, with the short habit-veste, wasn't in general use, if at all, in 1812.
Even in 1813/14 the old uniform was still in use and I don't think the Bardin uniform was anything like universal until 1815.
Quote from: John Cook on 27 June 2018, 11:54:24 AM
I haven't seen the ranges in the flesh, but there should be no differences in uniform as far as the French are concerned. The so-called 1812 Bardin uniform, with the short habit-veste, wasn't in general use, if at all, in 1812.
Even in 1813/14 the old uniform was still in use and I don't think the Bardin uniform was anything like universal until 1815.
Whilst technically correct from an authenticity perspective, every range I can think of takes the position of issue dates being absolute. Which from a production standpoint is fine and actually less confusing. 1809 French in long tail habits, 1812 in short tail habits. The buyer can choose which they want and which campaign to use them for.
Am I allowed to say 'about three years' yet?
No >:(
Quote from: mad lemmey on 27 June 2018, 03:23:54 PM
Am I allowed to say 'about three years' yet?
Optimistic.....
About three years! :D
Quote from: Zippee on 27 June 2018, 03:21:26 PM
Whilst technically correct from an authenticity perspective, every range I can think of takes the position of issue dates being absolute. Which from a production standpoint is fine and actually less confusing. 1809 French in long tail habits, 1812 in short tail habits. The buyer can choose which they want and which campaign to use them for.
Merely answering the question from Last Hussar. Something is either right or it is not.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 June 2018, 06:54:58 PM
Does the 1809 stuff work for Austerlitz
No, not at all. The French line infantry did not have shakos in 1805 but bicornes..
Quote from: John Cook on 30 June 2018, 01:41:27 AM
Merely answering the question from Last Hussar. Something is either right or it is not.
I don't think it's as simple as that. You have an axis with a campaign look authenticity at one end and a by the book full dress look authenticity at the other. We see that all the time in wargames collections where figures are in full dress not campaign motley and it is absolutely the individual's choice which point on that axis they choose. Issuing an 1812 range dressed in the official uniform as decreed for that year isn't incorrect just because real life logistics meant it didn't achieve immediate service use.
A figure dressed in Bardin regulation uniform for 1812 is 'correct' by the regulations, one dressed in a variant of c1809 uniform is also 'correct' by the likely standard of issue, and one dressed in trousers and greatcoat with some kind of wrap on his head is 'correct' by the standards of campaign conditions. And the likely reality is a bewildering mixture of all those and everything in-between.
I agree it's important to understand the difference if you want a full understanding of the situation but I think it would be disingenuous for a figure manufacturer to release an 1812 range of French figures that were not in Bardin issue without specifically calling them out as such.
Figure ranges need to be clearly tagged as to what they represent and tying them to issue dates seems a more logical and coherent methodology than to some vagary of what might have been being worn at some point by any number of different units over a period of years.
That said I think that there should also be reasonable availability of campaign dress figures, which by definition would be an attempt to reflect the snapshot of the real situation for those who wish to reflect that in their model armies. The wargame table reality, however, seems to be that such figures are far less popular (and thus economical) than those sporting some semblance of official full dress regalia - the hobby after all is at least as much about visual impact on the table as it is about understanding of historical realities.
FWIW my 1809 French are reasonably accurate by the regulations but probably a very poor representation of reality - like the vast majority of wargames collections out there. And whilst they could be pushed to be used in 1812, they are not suitable for 1805 or 1815. Although naturally enough they get lumped on the table whenever some Napoleonic French are needed.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7198/26626872020_acb7f776c3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GyVFom)French Ligne 1809 - 105th Regiment, Battalion I 03 (https://flic.kr/p/GyVFom) by Zippee Jerred (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/), on Flickr
Well said & I would happily use those French in any Napoleonic game
Quote from: mad lemmey on 29 June 2018, 06:52:26 PM
About three years! :D
Cheers, thanks for clarifying.
Seriously, I like Zipper's answer. Not just (year), but noting what it could be representative of.
Very nice. They are perfect for the Russian 1812 Campaign too. Even the eagle and colour.
Does anyone have pictures of the 1812 range? So specificially the French?
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 June 2018, 05:35:27 PM
Cheers, thanks for clarifying.
Seriously, I like Zipper's answer. Not just (year), but noting what it could be representative of.
To summarise, up until 1813 the line infantry kept in the main part, the blue uniform they wore at the start of the Empire, essentially as described in October 1801 – blue coats (habits) and bicornes.
In April 1806, however, a decree stated that the infantry would in future be dressed in white coats and in July the text describing the new coat was published. Nineteen regiments were designated to be the first to receive the white coats in 1807, but the 1807 campaign demonstrated that the colour was not practical and the change was dropped and blue coats were retained. Although decreed in 1806, no regiments wore white coats during the 1806 campaign and it is far from certain which regiments actually received them for the 1807 campaign.
The bicorne was replaced by a shako by decree of February 1806 and a description published in March of the same year but the line infantry continued to wear the bicorne throughout the 1806 campaign. The shako was introduced army-wide in 1807.
After 1806 the shako became the universal wear for the line infantry. This remained the situation until 1813 – blue coat with shako.
The text to the so-called Bardin regulations appeared in parts throughout 1812, first in February 1812 and finally in November 1812. It is clear that the new uniforms were to be issued initially to the conscripts of 1813. We know, nevertheless, from various sources that stocks of the old uniforms continued to be issued during first six months of 1813 and were worn into 1814.
Clearly these new so-called Bardin uniforms, the description of which was not disseminated fully until November 1812, could not have been issued and worn in Russia.
So, the old uniform, with long habit and bicorne was worn from the start of the Empire, and before, until the end of the 1806 campaign. It continued to be worn, with the shako replacing the bicorne, during the campaigns of 1807, 1809 and 1812, and throughout the campaigns in the Spanish Peninsular from 1808 to 1813.
The 1812 uniform was initially issued to conscripts in 1813 from about August 1813 and gradually replaced the old uniform from that time but the old uniform continued in use. The 1812 uniform was not in universal use until 1815.
Now, you can choose what figures you like to represent whatever period you are playing, but I suggest that you wouldn't use a late war variant Sherman in a 1942 scenario based around the 8th Army in North Africa, but it isn't a hanging offence if you do.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: John Cook on 01 July 2018, 05:45:54 PM
Very nice. They are perfect for the Russian 1812 Campaign too. I should have said except the eagle and colour.
Quote from: Dr Dave on 22 June 2018, 06:06:01 PM
In 1812 the French see a big change under the Bardin reforms.
This sees the loss of the:
Lozenge style eagles and the introduction of the tricolour
Long thigh length infantry gaiters replaced by shorter knee height ones
Coat with big lapels goes and replaced by the song,e fronted coat with shorter tails and turn backs
Line Grenadier companies are officially stopped from wearing the bearskin - shakosf for all now
Line voligueur coys are officially stopped from wearing the colpack - sharks for all
They wore fish on their heads?
Only when on sentry duty at the Eel de France.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 02 July 2018, 11:26:39 AM
Only when on sentry duty at the Eel de France.
And on Best Eel Day!
Cod! Here we go again!
Shocking.
I admit this thread puzzles me a bit. The original poster asked for the differences between the 1809 and 1812 ranges (ie Pendraken figures). Since then, apart from the occasional thread derailing (OK, Guilty as charged) the posts have concentrated on the differences in French uniforms between 1809 and 1812, not the differences in Pendraken figures in the respective ranges. For a start, given the difference in age between two, are they the same size? Does anyone have comparison pictures between the two ranges?
Quote from: mollinary on 02 July 2018, 06:14:12 PM
I admit this thread puzzles me a bit. The original poster asked for the differences between the 1809 and 1812 ranges (ie Pendraken figures). Since then, apart from the occasional thread derailing (OK, Guilty as charged) the posts have concentrated on the differences in French uniforms between 1809 and 1812, not the differences in Pendraken figures in the respective ranges. For a start, given the difference in age between two, are they the same size? Does anyone have comparison pictures between the two ranges?
Careful now - you're trying to talk sense in a Pendraken forum thread! ;)
I was more interested in what the 1809 figures could pass as
Quote from: Last Hussar on 04 July 2018, 05:56:03 PM
I was more interested in what the 1809 figures could pass as
And we are yet to find out! ;D
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 May 2018, 06:31:40 PM
You see that title? I'll let you work out what the thread is about.
Seriously, what are the differences?
Having given this deep thought, I think this is where it all started to go wrong.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 04 July 2018, 05:56:03 PM
I was more interested in what the 1809 figures could pass as
In majority the French 1809 range can provide figures suitable for the 1806 campaign through the 1812 campaign and the entire Peninsular War. There are changes in style within that but on the whole that's true. Lancers don't appear until 1811, Carabiniers a Cheval change uniform in 1811 (both options are available as part if the 1809 range weirdly) the rest of the cavalry and artillery can push through to 1815 if you're not too particular. If you limit yourself to the greatcoated figures the infantry can also pass muster through to 1815 again if you're not too picky.
The Austrian 1809 range is more complex. The cavalry and artillery are good for 1798 through 1814 on the whole, the German infantry are good for 1798 through 1809 and the Hungarian, Landwehr and Jager are good for 1809 through 1814. Again minor changes but they're fine.
The Bavarian 1809 range is goof for 1806 through 1815 essentially.
All ranges are missing items from later/earlier periods and as always with these things it all depends on how fussy you are personally.
My recommendation would be to build a collection around an 1809/Peninsular formation and then happily use them for games set in other sub-periods.
Quote from: Zippee on 05 July 2018, 07:05:11 AM
My recommendation would be to build a collection around an 1809/Peninsular formation and then happily use them for games set in other sub-periods.
A very sensible approach :)
Quote from: paulr on 05 July 2018, 09:02:23 AM
A very sensible approach :)
Except that there is no Peninsular range to oppose the French.
But there are KGL and Hannoverians with stovepipe shakos.
I'm not so worried about the Peninsula. I'm wondering about a Russian army as the optional 3rd set of figures.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 05 July 2018, 10:15:49 PM
But there are KGL and Hannoverians with stovepipe shakos.
Indeed, but no British Peninsular cavalry.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 05 July 2018, 10:25:18 PM
I'm not so worried about the Peninsula. I'm wondering about a Russian army as the optional 3rd set of figures.
Ask Leon if they are compatible with the newer 1809 figures. He's always helpful.