Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => Ancients to Renaissance (3000BC - 1680) => Topic started by: Last Hussar on 04 April 2018, 11:59:14 PM

Title: How close for ECW
Post by: Last Hussar on 04 April 2018, 11:59:14 PM
I know people put less on the base, but my ECW pike are as tight as I can get them - 15-16 on a 30mm base (4 ranks of 4). Is that too close?
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: Terry37 on 05 April 2018, 02:52:37 AM
I think that would depend on how it looks, and if you like the look. I game in 15 MM, and use the HOTT rules. So my pike blocks for the Italian Wars period are 12 figures on a 40 x 40 MM base, and for the TYW I have 10 figures on a 40 x 40 MM base. For me this is the most I can mount n that size base.

Italian Wars S =sword/pole arm, O = drummer, A = arquebus and P = pike.

   SODS
   APPA
   APPA


TYW is a little different looking like this. M=musket, O = officer, D = drummer and P = pike.

   MODM
   MPPM
     PP

Don't know if this helps, but thought I'd share it just in case.

Terry

Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: paulr on 05 April 2018, 03:46:46 AM
A related question is how deep should ECW pike be

From the very limited reading I've done it appears six ranks was common, the same as for musketeers

So perhaps our 'traditional' 2 deep shot and 4 deep pike is not the best representation

I'm currently thinking about 5 Pike and 10 Musketeers on a 12-13cm base, or possibly on three 4cm sabots  :-\

(https://www.britishbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/4-AAA-the-battle-of-wimpfen-die-schlacht-bei-wimpfen-may-1622-bbbbb-1.jpg)

(https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/sites/default/files/collection-online/6/c/354041-1357558430.jpg)
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: Westmarcher on 05 April 2018, 09:06:23 AM
This is a site worth looking at IMO. Have a look at spacing in the Order, Open Order and Close Order sections.

http://syler.com/drillDemo/menu.html (http://syler.com/drillDemo/menu.html)

I also recently posted this link on another thread that indicates that whilst shot could be 6 ranks deep in the 'Swedish Brigade' system, pikes could only be 5 ranks deep - reinforcing paulr's feeling that pikes should not be deeper than shot.

http://www.syler.com/Breitenfeld/infantry/SwedeBrigade.htm (http://www.syler.com/Breitenfeld/infantry/SwedeBrigade.htm)
[to get the best out of this resource, remember to click on sub-headings, animations and other internal links, etc.]

NB: Here's another link to Naseby - it's the same print kindly posted by Paul above but allows you to zoom in and out using the plus and minus icons.

https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/750070/plan-of-battle-of-naseby-1645 (https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/750070/plan-of-battle-of-naseby-1645)
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: Last Hussar on 05 April 2018, 08:18:38 PM
This is how they are based - they are on 30mm square because that is what the rules say (Peter Pig RoF), and also they fit nicely in a Really Useful Box hobby tray (if the rules said 35mm or 25mm I would still have gone with 30mm!)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157621671630377/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157621671630377/)

You'll note the Shot is 3-4 deep as well.

Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: paulr on 05 April 2018, 10:47:15 PM
 :-bd =D> :-bd
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: fred. on 06 April 2018, 08:48:52 AM
Quote from: paulr on 05 April 2018, 03:46:46 AM

I'm currently thinking about 5 Pike and 10 Musketeers on a 12-13cm base, or possibly on three 4cm sabots


I think that might look a little thin. I find that 8-9 figures is the fewest that look ok on a 40mm square base. Even then they will look fairly open order.

One detail did notice on the Nasbey engraving is that there is a gap between the pike element and the two shot elements. So basing the figures in the centre of the bases with a border would then look correct when they are put together to make a unit.
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: sunjester on 06 April 2018, 02:21:43 PM
Those look good to me. Have you got enough done for a game yet?  ;)
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: Dr Dave on 06 April 2018, 02:32:18 PM
The whole point of pike is that they need to be shoulder to shoulder. Too spread out, too many gaps destroys the integrity of the unit. I'd pack 'em in!
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: Last Hussar on 06 April 2018, 05:11:05 PM
Ok, That's that question answered.  Will be starting a new thread - WITH A POLL (possibly)
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: paulr on 06 April 2018, 06:04:07 PM
Quote from: paulr on 05 April 2018, 03:46:46 AM
I'm currently thinking about 5 Pike and 10 Musketeers on a 12-13cm base, or possibly on three 4cm sabots  :-

Quote from: fred. on 06 April 2018, 08:48:52 AM
I think that might look a little thin. I find that 8-9 figures is the fewest that look ok on a 40mm square base. Even then they will look fairly open order.

One detail did notice on the Nasbey engraving is that there is a gap between the pike element and the two shot elements. So basing the figures in the centre of the bases with a border would then look correct when they are put together to make a unit.

That must of seemed like it made sense when I typed it :-/

I'm currently thinking about two ranks of 5 Pike and 10 Musketeers...

I like the idea of gaps :-\
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: fred. on 06 April 2018, 08:03:04 PM
2x5 figures on a 40mm base makes sense. You then have space for an officer at the back.

With a gap you might only need 4 in a rank?
Title: Re: How close for ECW
Post by: pierre the shy on 06 April 2018, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: paulr on 06 April 2018, 06:04:07 PM
That must of seemed like it made sense when I typed it :-/

I'm currently thinking about two ranks of 5 Pike and 10 Musketeers...


That makes a lot more sense  ;)