Evening all
Can anyone enlighten me if there is a suitable ECW Dragoon horseholder figure available in one of the C17 ranges?
I see a horse and holder figures in the League of Ausburg range dismounted command group LOA 35, but looks a bit grand for a ECW dragoon, who seem to have been regarded as one step above highwaymen in the 1640's <) :ar!
Any other ideas spring to mind?
Four (to eight?) possibilities in EC42 - Civilians .....?
https://pendraken.co.uk/renaissance/english-civil-war/ (https://pendraken.co.uk/renaissance/english-civil-war/)
A guy I used to game with used the EC2 standing pikeman with the pike removed. Don't have a picture but hopefully this "artist's impression" gives a flavour of the real thing!
I'm sure I read somewhere recently that horseholders didn't usually dismount, but kept the free horses back, whilst remaining mounted, so that they could be brought more readily up to the dismounted troops when they needed to remount.
Yes, it is something ACW Guys have been pushing. However, if you take a close look at Okey's Dragoons in the near contemporary Anglia Rediviva representation of Naseby, you will see that the horse holders are dismounted!
Mollinary
Perhaps MAL22 or is the Marlburian uniform and horse furniture too modern?
https://pendraken.co.uk/search/Mal22/ (https://pendraken.co.uk/search/Mal22/)
If you cannot find a suitable Pendraken proxy, then AIM/Minifigs, available from Caliver Books, sell one (Code AECW 12 or 13, I think). The problem with many of these is that you get one horse per horseholder. This is fine for an aide holding the generals nag, but a Dragoon horse holder really needs four or five horses per holder.
Could the spare (presumably empty-handed) figures be turned into extra standard bearers or pikemen. Can't have too many standards in the ECW.
Sadly, they have banoliers of powder flasks!
An alternative to horse holders might be a small guard of mounted Dragoons :-\
In FK&P the horse holders are basically are marker showing where the dragoons dismounted. You could also use the same marker to show when the dragoons are mounted, moving the marker with the unit
That could work - touching the dismounted bases means the unit is mounted, separated means that the unit is dismounted.
Whilst we are the subject of 'horse holders,' I'm not a 'horsey person' (Techno?) but I think I would find it hard to hold onto one horse, never mind four (I understand that was the allocation for U.S. ACW cavalry).
I wonder if the horse holders role was more of a keeper's and guardian's role and rather than physically hold on to 4 horses each, the horses' reins were tied to fences, trees, bushes or stakes driven into the ground (you sometimes see stakes included in Horse & Musket era sculpts). If so, the idea of riderless horses being brought forward in an action doesn't seem to work for me. And if this means your horses are more or less static whilst the dismounted troopers roam around at will, should we start incorporating this in rules? For example, what if your dismounted troopers are more than one move away or your horses are captured whilst the main dismounted body is away fighting? Thoughts, anyone?
That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!
Thanks for the input. I have found a suitable period specific figure in another manufacturers ecw range...Irregular.
As these are markers was going to use one figure holding several horses per unit 130mm wide unit base. Any more will look too much like a separate unit.
Like Paul l am still looking at basing options but l like the 3 x 40mm sabots in a 130mm wide base best.
Quote from: mollinary on 04 April 2018, 08:03:37 PM
That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!
Good stuff. Reassuring to read I'm not alone in my thinking. :-bd
Quote from: Westmarcher on 04 April 2018, 07:41:38 PM
That could work - touching the dismounted bases means the unit is mounted, separated means that the unit is dismounted.
Whilst we are the subject of 'horse holders,' I'm not a 'horsey person' (Techno?) but I think I would find it hard to hold onto one horse, never mind four (I understand that was the allocation for U.S. ACW cavalry).
I wonder if the horse holders role was more of a keeper's and guardian's role and rather than physically hold on to 4 horses each, the horses' reins were tied to fences, trees, bushes or stakes driven into the ground (you sometimes see stakes included in Horse & Musket era sculpts). If so, the idea of riderless horses being brought forward in an action doesn't seem to work for me. And if this means your horses are more or less static whilst the dismounted troopers roam around at will, should we start incorporating this in rules? For example, what if your dismounted troopers are more than one move away or your horses are captured whilst the main dismounted body is away fighting? Thoughts, anyone?
OOh yes please, I love having more and more put into rules so that there is even more to forget. Thank god for Dan Mersey!
Quote from: Leman on 05 April 2018, 07:27:49 PM
OOh yes please, I love having more and more put into rules so that there is even more to forget. Thank god for Dan Mersey!
Hi Leman, I actually entirely agree with you, simplicity is admirable, and usually makes for a much mor3 fun game. . If it wasn't for the example of Okey's Dragoons at Naseby I would be inclined to say that once Dragoons dismount they can never remount. But Okey's dragoons did. So I went with the simplest concept I could come up with. The horseholder is simply a marker, once placed, you can forget it, it doesn't move. If you want to remount, you go back to it. It is uncomplicated. But it's purpose is to limit the way Wargamers are prone to create super troops out of those who were, in reality, entirely ordinary, by exploiting aspects of the rules. I can think of few (well actually none!) occasions, where Dragoons moved across a battlefield mounting and dismounting at will. Dragoons, and mounted infantry, seem to have used horses to get into position but not to move around a battlefield. Okey's Dragoons at Naseby, as mentioned above seem to have dismounted behind a hedge, fought from there, and then when the battle came back to them, remounted and charged. If there is a historical example of Dragoons moving on foot, followed by their horseholders, I haven't found it, so would welcome any info others may have.
Cheers,
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 05 April 2018, 08:16:51 PM
Hi Leman, I actually entirely agree with you, simplicity is admirable, and usually makes for a much mor3 fun game. . If it wasn't for the example of Okey's Dragoons at Naseby I would be inclined to say that once Dragoons dismount they can never remount. But Okey's dragoons did. So I went with the simplest concept I could come up with. The horseholder is simply a marker, once placed, you can forget it, it doesn't move. If you want to remount, you go back to it. It is uncomplicated. But it's purpose is to limit the way Wargamers are prone to create super troops out of those who were, in reality, entirely ordinary, by exploiting aspects of the rules. I can think of few (well actually none!) occasions, where Dragoons moved across a battlefield mounting and dismounting at will. Dragoons, and mounted infantry, seem to have used horses to get into position but not to move around a battlefield. Okey's Dragoons at Naseby, as mentioned above seem to have dismounted behind a hedge, fought from there, and then when the battle came back to them, remounted and charged. If there's is a historical example of Dragoons moving on foot, followed by their horseholders, I haven't found it, so would welcome any info others may have.
Quote from: mollinary on 04 April 2018, 08:03:37 PM
That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!
Good explanation. I think you've incorporated a good rule there, Mollinary. Simple, sensible and fun*. :-bd
*How embarrassing would it be to have your horses stolen or "forget where you parked them." "Well, Constable, we're sure we left them here ..." Great for campaigns, too. ;D
Agreed
FK&P adds some very nice flavour with simple mechanisms for the slightly unusual troop types A very small price to pay for the richness added
The irregular figure is useful, the horse being a bit smaller is also reasonable. 'Spare' horse-holders make useful figures for leading pack-horses, wagons or adding into gun crew.
FWIW
Here is a pic of horse holder markers I use for FK&P
(https://inredcoatragsattired.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/horseholders.jpg?w=800)
To the left is Pendraken LOA (Pixie painted it) - it is shimmed up to get the base surface height equal to the other two.
The middle one is Irregular Miniatures (smaller and thinner figures but well enough done).
To the right (providing more scale comparison) is an earlier attempt with a Pendraken Musketeer and a Minifig(?) MT horse.
Using the dismounted marker to show where you left your horse is a simple way to implement dragoons. I Like it.
FWIW in the end I went for a combination of the LOA35 horse and EC2 pike figure to get the look I wanted since we were ordering lots of Pendraken stuff anyway....mine are still somewhere down the painting queue.
Cor, that Irregular chap looks like a hobbit! Is it that noticeable on the table?
Handy idea on the markers, easy way of doing it.
Yeah, it is pretty noticeable. They are going to be switched to the hexagonal MDF stands (like the LOA) and I'll probably shim them up a bit. As you say, that are good for simple markers. Plus I don't use dragoons much (except when trying to deal with Jacob ;) ).
I got enough dragoons for a couple of small regiments per side as both Montrose and Leslie did have some at Philiphaugh and they do also feature in the second and third civil war battles in the Covenant armies.
Horseholders are only used as markers in FK&P rules.
Besides who can resist having a unit commanded by one Captain Blackadder ;) 8)
We just use markers for dismounts and if the unit can remount it simply does, regardless of the markers location -it stops the tail wagging the dog so to speak and units chasing down the horse holders -a bit too odd.
As for the marker itself, we use a mounted figure and several empty horses. Horse holders rarely actually dismounted them selves. Controlling 4 horses whilst on foot and then trying to Mount one as well is actually a bit tricky.
Quote from: pierre the shy on 03 August 2018, 06:21:40 PM
Besides who can resist having a unit commanded by one Captain Blackadder ;) 8)
True that!
I may never get to Philliphaugh! Nor Carbisdale! ;) :D
Quote from: Dr Dave on 03 August 2018, 07:10:35 PM
We just use markers for dismounts and if the unit can remount it simply does, regardless of the markers location -it stops the tail wagging the dog so to speak and units chasing down the horse holders -a bit too odd.
As for the marker itself, we use a mounted figure and several empty horses. Horse holders rarely actually dismounted them selves. Controlling 4 horses whilst on foot and then trying to Mount one as well is actually a bit tricky.
Given the probable quality of dragoon mounts in W3K period, maybe should be holder (mounted or standing), a swayback cart horse, a pony, one collapsed on the ground and perhaps a donkey. :P
Fire pit with spit roast and donkey sandwiches?!
Oo, reminded me to get my orders in, we'll have the Three Kingdoms reunited under US very soon now. Afterall, we're two battles to nil :D
;D
If you count the small sea actions it's 4 - nil! :o
Still - the Highlanders will soon be out of haggis and over loaded with plunder. :D
The man that once did sell the lion's skin
While the beast lived was killed with hunting him :D
:-bd
Literacy is not yet a thing of the past!
Quote from: Dr Dave on 03 August 2018, 07:10:35 PM
We just use markers for dismounts and if the unit can remount it simply does, regardless of the markers location -it stops the tail wagging the dog so to speak and units chasing down the horse holders -a bit too odd.
As for the marker itself, we use a mounted figure and several empty horses. Horse holders rarely actually dismounted them selves. Controlling 4 horses whilst on foot and then trying to Mount one as well is actually a bit tricky.
Hi Dr Dave, interesting views. I gave this a lot of thought when writing the rules, but would be very interested in any first hand accounts of how Dragoons fought that you may have come across. Regarding whether the horseholder himself was mounted or dismounted, the only contemporary illustration I have seen is in Anglia Rediviva showing Okey's Dragoons at Naseby. The horseholders illustrated are clearly on foot. I would be very grateful if you could share the information which led you to the conclusion that horseholders 'rarely' actually dismounted. My rationale for making the dismounted marker stationary was the idea of them moving behind a dismounted unit, dragging the horses with them, seemed inherently implausible, but I am open to other views, particularly if we have evidence of the holders being mounted.
Eduardo Wagner bases his large set of lovely watercolors on contemporary illustrations (Thirty Years War period) and has a page devoted to dragoons. He shows the horse holder (with a small whip) dismounted and holding five horses but in a different way then you would first imagine - the reins of horse one are looped over the neck of horse two, horse two over horse three and so on. All the mounts were then placed together and surrounded by a few mounted pickets. This is, of course, roughly 40 years before the ECW and in Europe at a time when dragoons often included pikemen.
I haven't, as yet, found any detailed examples in military publications of the period about how dragoons might have handled their mounts.
FK&P works well because you normally dismount where you deploy to fight. If you maneuver away without remounting you definitely put your mounts at risk, since they don't move.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 August 2018, 04:32:23 AM
:-bd
Literacy is not yet a thing of the past!
It was that or shout, "Bol***s!"
Quote from: Dr Dave on 03 August 2018, 07:10:35 PM
We just use markers for dismounts and if the unit can remount it simply does, regardless of the markers location -it stops the tail wagging the dog so to speak and units chasing down the horse holders -a bit too odd.
Naturally, it would make sense for the horses to be held near by, but whether the horse holders were mounted or dismounted (and I am inclined to believe both situations occurred depending on doctrine and era), I find it odd that the horses and horse holders would follow the dismounted troops around a battlefield. So, even without taking into account the conclusions of Mollinary's and D-Guy's findings regarding this era, with perhaps the odd exception, I think it more likely that the horses would stay in the one place while the dismounted troops deployed ahead in accordance with orders, terrain and opportunity to discomfit the enemy. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of any other rules that handle dismounting so sensibly. Once again, well done, Molllinary!