I am near ready to start painting somewhat over a hundred figures to serve as Highlanders at Flodden (and elsewhere). The predominate clothing color will be saffron. I am torn as to which Vallejo shade to use.
Looking at many interpretive illustrations, Golden Brown (70.877) would seem to be a match (really close to what Fierce Kitty uses as his ground cloth: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,17059.msg250486.html#msg250486 ).
Also considering Sun Yellow (72.706) and/or Gold Yellow (72.007). These last two could probably be use as highlights for Golden Brown.
Does anyone have suggestions?
Apparently Buddhist monks robes are dyed with saffron :-\
"Because Saffron was expensive, poor clansmen dyed the linen with horse urine or bark and crushed leaves to get the rich yellow colour."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/5675615/Scots-fought-in-bright-yellow-war-shirts-not-Braveheart-kilts.html
Bet lichen got a look in as well.
I would say d_Guy, that what you want is a fairly mild browny-yellow - on the lines of a buff coat. But I would add that of the 100 figures, I would, for the sake of authenticity, use 99 different yellows. (There's always one who comes in the same outfit you do.) There may have been the odd show-off, no doubt corrupted by decadent English ways, who sported some bright jonquil tone, but they would be few and in the front rank and die quickly.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 February 2018, 07:11:28 PM
"Because Saffron was expensive, poor clansmen dyed the linen with horse urine or bark and crushed leaves to get the rich yellow colour."
Sounds fun, I think even if I were rich, I would do that anyway! great excuse to smell like a field, but look like a Lord.
I have always thought of Saffron as Golden Yellow.
Quote from: paulr on 08 February 2018, 06:28:32 PM
Apparently Buddhist monks robes are dyed with saffron :-
They're usually described as saffron-coloured, but I believe they actually use turmeric as the dye.
Thanks for the quick replies.
Paul - The monks wear several bright shades but the orange gold sees most abundant - it may be too reddish for the vegetable dyes in the British Isles (but various roots apparently do red, so who knows). Some interesting shades to look at, however - thanks.
Ithorial - thanks for that article - I need to look into the book mentioned. The vegetable dye hobbyists seem to think that plants in the weld family were used and the urine was used more to fix the color then to get the primary shade (but again - who knows) - need the Scots army uniform regulations for 1513! :D
As it happens, fsn, I use the Golden Brown for buff coats and belts so it remains a leading candidate for "saffron". As to the ninety-nine shades - I actually did that with my hodden greys (even randomly repainting ones that I had bought pre-painted) - No one noticed. ;)
Still if I can't decide....
Quote from: Norm on 08 February 2018, 07:56:53 PM
Sounds fun, I think even if I were rich, I would do that anyway! great excuse to smell like a field, but look like a Lord.
I have always thought of Saffron as Golden Yellow.
;D
Likely the entire 16th century reeked - even without using their precious bodily fluids to dye their clothing. Golden Yellow is attractive as well.
Quote from: Raider4 on 08 February 2018, 08:36:25 PM
They're usually described as saffron-coloured, but I believe they actually use turmeric as the dye.
And I reading now, not only turmeric but several different spices which give the variety of shades.
FWIW - just looked into the book - it is just a tad pricey! :o
https://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Arms-Armour-Shire-Collections/dp/0747806985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518123712&sr=8-1&keywords=scottish+arms+and+armour
IIRC Saffron Walden in Essex gets its name from the fact that it was the major import centre for the spice in times gone by.
Horse urine..... golden yellow.......
must resist..... shower joke...
And now on topic:
http://ilivewithcats.blogspot.be/2017/07/for-pikes-must-be-together.html
Apparantly vallejo dark sand is suggested here.
Quote from: d_Guy on 08 February 2018, 09:04:57 PM
FWIW - just looked into the book - it is just a tad pricey! :o
https://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Arms-Armour-Shire-Collections/dp/0747806985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518123712&sr=8-1&keywords=scottish+arms+and+armour
So is saffron, mind you.
Urine has been used since Ancient times for dyeing cloth and softening leather. Even for gunpowder! So just be careful the next time you pee and fart .... :-SS :D
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/from-gunpowder-to-teeth-whitener-the-science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/ (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/from-gunpowder-to-teeth-whitener-the-science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/)
... and also teeth whitener? Come on, surely not ... :-&
'fraid so. There's a poem by Catullus on the subject of an Iberian who keeps smiling to show off his teeth....
Who first thought it was a good idea to brighten your teeth with urine? Especially first thing in the morning. :-&
I mean, there's a certain efficiency in using a handy running liquid, but I think I'd have tried a few things beforehand.
Actually, a lot of things before considering my own wee.
Or did you use someone else's?
What is the etiquette here?
There's a song from the American Civil War about a man collecting the ladies' urine to extract the saltpeter for the manufacture of gunpowder.
Please enjoy! http://store.bobbyhorton.com/track/john-harrolson
Cheers,
Rob
Quote from: Steve J on 08 February 2018, 09:20:09 PM
IIRC Saffron Walden in Essex gets its name from the fact that it was the major import centre for the spice in times gone by.
Not for importing the spice, but for growing the crocus from which it was extracted for, among other things, medical uses in the 15th and 16th centuries.
Mollinary
Once the leak of information began, it moved from a wee trickle to a flow that could hardly be staunched. I could almost hear it tinkling down on the pavement. Many pennies were spent. Much useful and fun information.
Peter, thanks for that blog link. Contemporary descriptions speak of bright yellow - although light sand to dark ochre seems possible.
Steve and Mollinary - I had never heard of Saffron Walden and looked through a bunch of links in Wikipedia (and elsewhere). Seems to agree with Mollinary's point about the crocuses (crocii?). 50K to 75K blossoms to make one pound of saffron. Would explain Kitty's point about the expense.
My best understanding now is Saffron is a color (colour) description that can be achieved my any number of ways. I may need to follow fsn's suggestion of using multi-shades (and try to make them more noticable). :-\
Thanks to all (even Westmarcher who provided an important safety tip).
I wold use a yellow ocher, which is a nice mellow yellow, but also has a touch of brown in it.
Terry
Best I've found is an old Citadel colour 'Golden Yellow', I use it for Highlanders, Irish and for Indian figures. The pot is almost gone so I'm mean with it.
I hesitate to say this but...
FSN's suggestion is a good one :o
Multi-shades makes sense when clothes are dyed with organic dyes, I would suggest using 3 or 5 different shades
Quote from: paulr on 09 February 2018, 08:58:39 PM
FSN's suggestion is a good one :o
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3otPoFEwqMCHVf3R72/giphy.gif)
;D ;D ;D
Chuckle....
Btw, the point about monks' robes' matching my desert cloth is pretty accurate; when I first showed it to Lee, I posed in it and got a scowl from my pious better half in return. Just a touch of burnt umber added to the colour of my cloth (visible in many photographs of my battles, excluding pike-and-shot, ancient Chinese, and SYW. for which I use olive green), and you're ready to shave your head and pretend to be rejecting the pleasures of bodily existence.
Not only is saffron rather dear, it's far too tasty to waste on clothes, writes a nudist foodie. Save it for seafood stews, kebabs, kormas, and pilaos.
Some great visuals, Kitty. I particularly like coriander but detest cilantro - both come from the same plant, I think.
SV52, It was looking at your Flodden Highlanders that decided me on going heavy on saffron. Its interesting that the ascension of Jame VI as James I seems to mark the transition from saffron to unbleached linen ( in both Ireland and Scotland). Correlation does not imply causation, but... :)
Vallejo Golden Brown might match the Citadel color.
OK - at least three* saffron colors it is! Thanks all :)
Terry, I use artistic acrylic dark ocher for the base colour of all my thatched rooves followed by dry brushing with the yellow ochre you mentioned. If I get enough contrast I may use one or both as well. Thanks for the reminder. My artist acrylics are "out of sight, out of mind" (and I played with the thatched buildings for half the day yesterday).
* technically, fsn suggested 99 different shades while Paul suggested 3 to 5, just saying.
According to a lichen dye website - "It's all an experiment and many factors determine the ultimate color: the age of the plant, the pH of the water, the type of fabric all are factors."
http://www.instructables.com/id/Creating-Lichen-Dyes-Letharia-vulpina-or-Wolf-Lich/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Creating-Lichen-Dyes-Letharia-vulpina-or-Wolf-Lich/)
To be honest I think it's possible to get too hung up on 'true' colours, especially in the good old bad old days. Quality control I suspect was not at the top of the list.
Vegetable dyes are prone to hosts of variables; quality of the growing season, quantity of dyestuff available, temperature both ambient and of the fluids, etc., etc. Not to mention laundry or the lack of it and the relatively poor 'fixing' of natural as opposed to artificial dyes. A motley crew would look fine to me ;)
Dye colour wasn't fixed until artificial dyes appeared, late 1800's, early 1900's. Before then the dye would bleach rapidly, and could even wash out if insufficient mordent (fixative) wasn't used. So the British red coat would be scarlet or even orange.....
It is, of course, easier to paint using a very narrow palette, but I have very few units that use "uniform" colours (although in 10mm I now think uniformity looks better).
In our FIW and AWI re-enactment group we spent a good deal of time working with vegetable dyes (starting usually with collecting the plants and roots).
As has been said the results are highly variable and entail much experimentation. Totally unexpected results were often our best results.
Ace's Civil War song reminded me of homespun which lead to digging this out of a storage chest:
(https://leadenshipsandtinmen.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/20180210_154848402_ios.jpg?w=600)
We bought local (washed) wool, carded it and spun it in to yarn which was then dyed. The above was done with yellow onion skins.
I had forgotten about it but it seems to be in the "saffron" color family (although purely accidental).
Our loyalists regimental coats where made from pre-washed and tightly woven wool. We used nettles to get the green and the facings were done with madder (powered, from the Mother Country). The madder started a a fairly bright brick red but after seven years of "campaigning"
became almost a primrose pink.
We used mordants (fixers) on some of these but I can no longer remember what got what.
Interesting :-\
Pink with brown hair, blue eyes... http://absolutelyfabulous.wikia.com/wiki/Saffron_Monsoon
;D ;D
Strangely, we watched a "Pawn Stars" recently were a full suit of clothes (breeches, waistcoat, and coat) owned and worn by George Washington was on offer (priced well beyond $1M). They were a light yellow sand colour but it turns out the original colour was hot pink!
Shame he wasn't wearing it for the famous Gilbert Stuart painting!
Quote from: d_Guy on 10 February 2018, 08:24:43 PM
;D ;D
Strangely, we watched a “Pawn Stars” recently were a full suit of clothes (breeches, waistcoat, and coat) owned and worn by George Washington was on offer (priced well beyond $1M). They were a light yellow sand colour but it turns out the original colour was hot pink!
Shame he wasn’t wearing it for the famous Gilbert Stuart painting!
I'd like to see Washington crossing the Delaware revamped in a hot pink livery.
Remember this was the guy who bested Napoleon in deadliest warrior.
On topic aside:
The saffron of modern day Buddhist monks (Google some temple images form Thailand) looks a lot more golden or orange than the baggy shirts I've seen form any depictions of Irish, or Scots highlanders.
Perhaps this is down to the monks having artificial dyes and opting or bolder colours.
Saffron comes from the powder form the sexy bits of the crocus.
Last time I checked (about a decade back) it retailed arounf £4,000 per kilo, but it's a fine powder so yield off each flower must be miniscule.
Efforts to persuade Afghan farmers to replace their poppy crops with the valuable crocus (War on drugs, nobody complained whenit was Donald Sutherland in Kelly's heroes) have largely met with failure.
She was ginger when I was dating her, but that was back in 92/93