I have just read " A Tankie Travels" by Jock Watt. Its an autobiography of his WW2 service mainly in the Western Desert.
He evaluates the Honey when they are issued with it. He states its that its one advantage over 2pdr armed tanks is the HE shell they fire. Most rule sets do not allow for this. He also states that the rubber shoes on the tracks were very short lived and when they wore out they removed the shoes and turned the tracks inside out.
Turning the tracks inside out wont work, the teeth which engage the sprocket are only on one side. Far as I know 37mm HE was NOT issued to tanks, if any was supplied. Argument being the same as that for not issuing the HE to 2pdr tanks, the shell was just too small to be effective, and the MG's were much better against soft targets.
IanS
Quote from: ianrs54 on 23 October 2017, 09:55:21 AM
Turning the tracks inside out wont work, the teeth which engage the sprocket are only on one side. Far as I know 37mm HE was NOT issued to tanks, if any was supplied. Argument being the same as that for not issuing the HE to 2pdr tanks, the shell was just too small to be effective, and the MG's were much better against soft targets.
IanS
I probably have not included the fall adaptations made to the tracks. Surely it would be strange to mention the HE shell if they were not issued with it. the HE was used in the Far East along with a canister shell to good effect
Canister yes, the boxes are marked "far East Only" or similar. Robert Crisp and Chris ? Jolly who both served in 7th Armoured Div. during Crusader make no mention of HE.
IanS
Just because two people did not mention it does not mean it was not used?
Cannister for the 37mm's was used in Europe too; especially in the boçage they were apparently very effective. A Sherman would break through with a Stuart on one or both flanks which would immediately fire a few rounds of cannister into the hedges on the flanks while the sherman took care of the front. Besides taking out AT teams and pinning the Germans down a few rounds would also nicely strip away the foliage and camouflage.
Cheers,
Rob
It's about the only thing the M3 was good for by Normandy! All the unit evaluations say "ditch it, useless. Replace with the whole lot with 105mm Sherman, please!".
I've read other veterans comments on the M3 in the desert mentioning HE but they mainly comment on reliability and availability. They fight no better, but at least they worked long enough to actually get to a fight!
Edit: qualified to add a caveat about range, as they burnt thru fuel really quickly in comparison to the U.K. built Cruisers.
I've seen range figures of 30 miles, ie I couldn't quite get it from home to central Manchester !!
Quote from: mart678 on 23 October 2017, 05:41:45 PM
Just because two people did not mention it does not mean it was not used?
I take your point, but careful there. They're are lots of other weapon and ammo types that they didn't mention either.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the unmentioned use of canister in the bocage would also help explain why fighting in the bocage was such a doddle. Ahhhh, hang on a minute....
Quote from: ianrs54 on 24 October 2017, 06:58:53 AM
I've seen range figures of 30 miles, ie I couldn't quite get it from home to central Manchester !!
There's a good Russian comment that's always applicable to personal recollections, which is "He lied like an eyewitness", so I do take your point.
Zaloga reckons HE was regularly issued in the Desert though (but I don't know his sources), and there's lots of other mentions. It could just be the same "Chinese Whispers" repeated.
Do I recall you had the manifests/supply paperwork somewhere (or quoted from it before), Ian?
Canister in Normandy - given all the unit evaluations from battalion up to division say the M3 was pointless, and can we have 105mm howitzer Shermans in company strength instead of them, I suspect it was a bit hopeful at best, and probably a "well they might as well catch a flank shot instead of the useful tank" at worst :D
The Americans did not "appear" to have canister or HE during Operation Torch. There is a report of Stuarts overrunning a German airfield and the ineffectiveness of solid A/T shot when used against aircraft on the ground and trying to take off
I have never heard of HE in 37mm, but canister was used by US Marines to good effect in Guadalcanal.
I don't have any supply listings, I suspect that either the Tank Museum, or IWM could supply those. To be pedantic the M3's in US service were M5's, all in Normandy and most in Tunisia. There was an HE round for the 37mm, maybe the US followed our policy and only issued it to the towed and Sp weapons, not the tanks ?
IanS
Hmm, I was just reading a piece on Americans in M3 Lights firing 37mm HE in Tunisia! Can I find it in my browsing history, I wonder.
Ah yes - http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/tank-battle-in-happy-valley-1st-armored-division-in-the-run-for-tunis/ (http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/tank-battle-in-happy-valley-1st-armored-division-in-the-run-for-tunis/)
About two thirds of the way down, in the "Daubin's Duel With the Mark IVs" bit.
Again, caveats about lying like an eye witness etc. Interestingly it mentions GERMAN tanks firing AP at some 75mm armed half track's, and how if they'd fired HE it would have been over for the half tracks immediately!
Am wishing I hadn't sold my Tunisia French, now I want to play R35's versus Stuarts again :D
On issuance of the HE round - It's quite likely that even if it was supposed to be only issued to X unit, that Y unit picked some up anyway because they felt they needed it... even the best bureaucracy is rife with such holes... Also, yes, M3/M5, let alone all the sub variants and hybrids and... life's too short :D
Thanks for sharing- it reminds me of an account in Rick Atkinson's An Army at Dawn - probably shared the same primary source.