Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Painting & Modelling => Topic started by: Orcs on 04 August 2017, 08:22:21 PM

Title: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 04 August 2017, 08:22:21 PM
Well I sent off 6 regiments of 12 Cavalry and some Staff Officers to a company that had peoples say they were reasonable for the price. The company has been around for over a decade is a specialist painting company and has a good website with pictures on,

Most of the figures were the cavalry and dragoon figures from the Pendraken Marlburian range.

The cost was 75p per cavalry figure. (despite the website saying 10% less than this) I expected a basic paint job I could then run a wash over to give it some texture before basing to match the rest of the army.

I sent detailed instructions on facings and horse colours, - While most horses in British service should be black I vary the horse colour to aid differentiating between regiments  

Here is how I fared. I will not name the company YET - you will see why later.

I sent them off and they returned approximately two weeks later. I excitedly opened the parcel and was nearly ready to throw them in the bin. Then I thought it must be me and the fact I was examining them in good light at my painting table.  I took them to club in a church hall that has adequate light for other club members to look at.

Three different people looked at them all agreed they were very poorly done. One of them uses 6mm almost exclusively and he pointed out his 6mm Bacchus Napoleonic's on the table had better painting and more detail than these/

Main Issues:-

Figures had obviously not been undercoated

The underside of the horses muzzle was still bare metal - I know you don't see it but it should have been painted.

Some of the horses had bare metal on most if not all of the underside

The Left hand side of the jackets were not painted - obviously to difficult to get the brush in there.  

Much of the horse furniture was unpainted including the broad girth strip under their stomachs.

The horse furniture that had been painted was seemed to be by just Running a black brush rond the neck where the reins are

ALL horses had black tails and manes even the whites and grey ones. Making them look like pantomime ponies

A couple had sand embedded in the paint - obviously they had not cleared the painting area properly after basing some other figures.

Odd spots of bare metal where they had handled the figure before Varnishing

One regiment has the facing colour from the saddle all over the bottom of the musket stock on all but 2 of the figures


A three page email to the company explaining all the faults (yes it took 3 pages)   I suggested that they give me a full refund plus the  cost of the bare metal if I returned them to sell on their website as I had lost all confidence in their ability to paint them to a reasonable standard.  They requested I return them for repainting . This cost me an additional £5 to send recorded delivery

On further thought I realised they had painted the 10mm in the same way as most people paint 6mm, which is a scale they seem to "specialise" in. But they also have pictures of reasonably painted 15mm on their website, so they should be able to cope with doing a basic but reasonable job on 10mm." I accept they might pass the three foot rule "- just, but I expected them at least to be fully coated with the right colour

I await the result of their repainting. If its not up to a good basic standard I will recourse to Paypal to see if I can get a refund that way, but this will rely on someone at Pay pal making a decision on what standard I should expect when they will probably have never heard of war gaming.

When they return I will give a full update on the final result and name the company as I feel its only right to give them a chance to rectify their mistakes.


Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 04 August 2017, 10:07:29 PM
Next time, drop them off with me in Leighton Buzzard! ;D
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 04 August 2017, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 04 August 2017, 10:07:29 PM
Next time, drop them off with me in Leighton Buzzard! ;D

I thought you did painting for friends more as a favour, but if you are willing  to do mine I will do that in future
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 04 August 2017, 11:16:41 PM
Im really sorry you've  had a bad experience

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: paulr on 05 August 2017, 07:51:35 AM
Bugger, I hope the repaint sorts this out
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 August 2017, 07:54:27 AM
I have been known to paint for cold, hard cash*. Mates get a reduction!  ;)
Bung me a pm if you need owt done, it could finally get me down your way for a fight! I can't gaurentee amazing quality, but from 3 foot they always look decent, and undersides get checked!



* PayPal and bank transfers count as cash, don't they?
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Shedman on 05 August 2017, 11:12:52 AM
Sorry to hear about your troubles

Quote from: Orcs on 04 August 2017, 08:22:21 PM
The cost was 75p per cavalry figure

I must admit that is cheap - I pay 60p and up for 10mm foot
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: SV52 on 05 August 2017, 12:28:23 PM
If you paid via PayPal on a credit card you wouild be protected under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

So PayPal can say what they like, you bleed all over your credit card company.

Should come under simple consumer law as well. Sale of Goods Act, '.. Item must be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose...'  Local Trading Standards or Citizens Advice will know.

In the end it's not what is acceptable to anyone else but what is or is not acceptable to you the customer.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 05 August 2017, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: Shedman on 05 August 2017, 11:12:52 AM
Sorry to hear about your troubles

I must admit that is cheap - I pay 60p and up for 10mm foot

I would have paid more, but the pictures on the web site looked ok and a couple of reviews said they were ok.

Still "Caveat Emptor" always applies
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Leon on 05 August 2017, 10:47:20 PM
It's seems to be so hard these days to find reliable painters who offer a good service at a reasonable price.  We've been extremely fortunate over the years to have found guys like Kev, Matt, Clib, Jason, AndyMac, etc. but there have been a great number who've had the figures and we've never seen them again. 
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Leman on 06 August 2017, 07:04:57 AM
Now that is definitely very naughty.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: cameronian on 06 August 2017, 09:01:25 AM
Fernando.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 06 August 2017, 09:33:24 AM
I had a similar experience with some 15mm. Despite sending colour prints and written details, what I received need a hell of a lot of work
to make them half decent. As an example, the figures were French Revolutionary infantry and I asked for the trousers on some of the figures
To have thin blue or red stripes. What came back were figures with paint carelessly splashed on as stripes. Again this was a painter whose website suggested he was at least competent but what I received makes you wonder how he gets away with this.

I stopped using Fernando because,white the painting is good, their handling of figures is or was appalling. Broken and bent figures in what I received.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: petercooman on 06 August 2017, 09:37:06 AM
The description of the problems makes me think of a particular painter.

I'll send you a pm, very curious if I was right 😉
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: mollinary on 06 August 2017, 10:52:38 AM
Quote from: Chad on 06 August 2017, 09:33:24 AM
I stopped using Fernando because,white the painting is good, their handling of figures is or was appalling. Broken and bent figures in what I received.
Interesting how different individuals' experiences can be! I have sent thousands of 10mm figures to Fernando for painting at their 'Showcase' standard. Communication was always great, photos of work in progress sent, comments taken and acted upon, and figures received packed so carefully (individually!) that the only problem was the length of time it took to unwrap them all. These have included a large number of pikemen with moulded on Pikes, none of which were damaged.

Mollinary



Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 06 August 2017, 07:15:42 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 06 August 2017, 10:52:38 AM
Interesting how different individuals' experiences can be! I have sent thousands of 10mm figures to Fernando for painting at their 'Showcase' standard. Communication was always great, photos of work in progress sent, comments taken and acted upon, and figures received packed so carefully (individually!) that the only problem was the length of time it took to unwrap them all. These have included a large number of pikemen with moulded on Pikes, none of which were damaged.

Mollinary

Sounds like Fernando is the way to go.  It always looked a lot of mucking about sendng to him.  I will PM you to "pick your brains" if you don't mind



Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 06 August 2017, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: petercooman on 06 August 2017, 09:37:06 AM
The description of the problems makes me think of a particular painter.

I'll send you a pm, very curious if I was right 😉

Well just to satisfy the curious Peter guessed correctly.

I will do a further review when the figures return.

I do fail to see how they keep in business if the standard I received is normal
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 06 August 2017, 07:50:56 PM
Would it be appropriate to give us all an indication who the painter is, so others don't have this problem?
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 06 August 2017, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Chad on 06 August 2017, 07:50:56 PM
Would it be appropriate to give us all an indication who the painter is, so others don't have this problem?

I was going to give them a chance to redeem themselves, but it seems that they already have a reputation.

I showed them to Sunjester at club , but not in time to stop him making the same mistake,

The company in question is Turnbil Miniatures
www.turbilminiatures.co.uk/
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 06 August 2017, 08:38:03 PM
What is interesting is that on Ebay they have 1800+ feedback and 100% positive.

I am not sure how that can be
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: paulr on 06 August 2017, 08:46:10 PM
The opening sentence on their website might hold a clue...

QuoteHi, I am Haley and my partner in crime is Jonathan...
;)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: petercooman on 06 August 2017, 08:48:15 PM
Well as I said you can see the pictures better on ebay. So maybe people know what to expect more.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: cameronian on 08 August 2017, 06:07:11 PM
My recollection of this company was they specialised in high volume 6mm OKish jobs, wouldn't ever consider them for anything bigger.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry pro painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 07:55:28 AM
You had me at "no undercoat" :s
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Leman on 09 August 2017, 08:03:47 AM
I actually did take a look at their advert and my thought was - well that makes me look bloody brilliant, I won't be paying for stuff I can do better myself.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 09 August 2017, 10:49:29 AM
Hi all I kinda feel real guilty over this as I advertise Turbil Miniatures Painting service (http://www.10mm-wargaming.com/2016/05/useful-wargaming-painters-links.html). The last thing Id want to do is recommend a service which people are having trouble with.

I know they're painting is extremely basic but mine were undercoated and reasonably block painted. Check out my 10mm American Civil War project for pictures (http://www.10mm-wargaming.com/2015/01/10mm-american-civil-war-project.html).

Like I say I feel really bad about this. Should I remove the advertisement from my link page or should I put a warning and a link to this discussion I'll wait for your opinions.

More Pictures (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNLHEnbRgkFnvTbd3bFk7kAR17evVAYm_53Fe40XnovlAqvwWs7gefmjpDNU5vZZQ?key=N05sLXVuLXRIbTJmWWU3VmJkOWZZMU9lX2FDdVZB)


Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 11:35:42 AM
If you're happy with them I'd leave the links, Andy. More informed, more informed choices. Mind, not updating the price list on their own website is a bit duff!

Orcs, hope you've had a positive reply by now?

Also, I'm surprised at people's poor experiences with Fernando - all his work I've seen looked excellent! Isn't it his work in the Austro-Prussian Wargaming in History books? Made me bloody jealous, I must say :)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 09 August 2017, 01:02:41 PM
As I said I have no problem with Fernando painting. But the last order I received had figures which had clearly just been pulled carelessly off the painting bases and were severely bent over from the waist. Luckily I was able to straighten the up without any breaking. Others had lost half the muskets which had broken off.

With regard to my recent U.K. Painted figures, I have tried to tidy them up but it is proving to be a waste of time. They are primed black and at my age of 3 score years and 10, it is very difficult to see detail that has been missed.

Does anyone know of a method to remove paint from figures as this seems to be my only option and to repaint them myself? Failing that I will have to buy more figures and paint them myself.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 09 August 2017, 01:09:12 PM
Option 1: jar if nitromors (not suitable for plastic)
Option 2: wait for it.... wait for it... Put them in the dishwasher!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Ithoriel on 09 August 2017, 01:12:06 PM
I use nail varnish remover rather than Nitromors. Cheaper and not quite as ferocious. Still not suitable for plastic!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 09 August 2017, 01:14:33 PM
Have used Nitromors for household paint removal. It is extremely caustic as I recall. I assume I would then need to rinse them in either hot water with or without washing up liquid? Then brush them with a stiff toothbrush to remove any paint left?
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 09 August 2017, 01:16:02 PM
Nail varnish remover. Again I assume they would need washing, etc afterwards
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: mollinary on 09 August 2017, 01:48:25 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 11:35:42 AM

Also, I'm surprised at people's poor experiences with Fernando - all his work I've seen looked excellent! Isn't it his work in the Austro-Prussian Wargaming in History books? Made me bloody jealous, I must say :)

Yes, the vast majority of the figures in the 2 Austrian-Prussian War books were painted by Fernando to showcase standard.

Mollinary
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Ithoriel on 09 August 2017, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: Chad on 09 August 2017, 01:16:02 PM
Nail varnish remover. Again I assume they would need washing, etc afterwards

I rinse them in warm water and give them a quick scrub with an old toothbrush.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 02:27:46 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 09 August 2017, 01:48:25 PM
Yes, the vast majority of the figures in the 2 Austrian-Prussian War books were painted by Fernando to showcase standard.

Mollinary

Thought so, and mighty nice they look. Doubley so en mass :)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Chad on 09 August 2017, 03:17:47 PM
Thanks for the advice. Will give nail Varnish remover a try.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: fred. on 09 August 2017, 03:59:34 PM
If they are painted with acrylics then you have a bunch of options nail varnish remover, pine based cleaning products.

For older figures painted with enemals then you may need to resort to nitromors or other proper paint strippers.  

With figures it's often the folds and other deep details that are hard to get pain out of and can need some work. All will want a good wash with soapy water then clean water before starting again.


If you are just wanting to see what you are doing over a black under coat - then I'd start by dry brushing over in white. Should bring out the details and its much quicker and easier than stripping.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 09 August 2017, 07:26:57 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 11:35:42 AM
If you're happy with them I'd leave the links, Andy. More informed, more informed choices. Mind, not updating the price list on their own website is a bit duff!

Orcs, hope you've had a positive reply by now?

Also, I'm surprised at people's poor experiences with Fernando - all his work I've seen looked excellent! Isn't it his work in the Austro-Prussian Wargaming in History books? Made me bloody jealous, I must say :)

Thanks much appreciated toxicpixie. I think I will still put a warning link on my website to this forum post

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 09 August 2017, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: Womble67 on 09 August 2017, 10:49:29 AM

Like I say I feel really bad about this. Should I remove the advertisement from my link page or should I put a warning and a link to this discussion I'll wait for your opinions.


Andy,

Please don't feel bad about this. You accurately described your experience, that's all. If my figures had come back as well painted as the ones you received I would have been perfectly satisfied. 

All I was expecting was a basic block paintin which I would have given a wash to, to add some depth.

Sunjester received his back from them this week and they are  fine, he had a couple of minor niggles but nothing much.

I do wonder if they have painters they pass the commissions on to and it then depends on who your figures are given to?



Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 09 August 2017, 08:49:17 PM
Latest update:-

I posted the figures by First class recorded delivery on Saturday 29th July.  I have not received any confirmation they have received the figures or any correspondence at all.

The original order took just shy of two weeks from their receipt of the figures to them being delivered back to me.  I then took a week trying to decide what I wanted to do about it.

I am not sure if they will try to rectify the faults or repaint again in full. If their turn round time is similar to last time I should have them back by early next week.

When I do get them back I will give you all an update. Hopefully It will be a nice positive update
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 09 August 2017, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: Orcs on 09 August 2017, 08:39:24 PM
Andy,

Please don't feel bad about this. You accurately described your experience, that's all. If my figures had come back as well painted as the ones you received I would have been perfectly satisfied. 

All I was expecting was a basic block paintin which I would have given a wash to, to add some depth.

Sunjester received his back from them this week and they are  fine, he had a couple of minor niggles but nothing much.

I do wonder if they have painters they pass the commissions on to and it then depends on who your figures are given to?





Thanks for your kind words Orcs it's much appreciated and I keep my fingers crossed that your figures are returned in a condition which you are happy with

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 09 August 2017, 10:33:55 PM
Fingers crossed! Hopefully you'll get some news (or acceptable figures) back soon :)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: paulr on 10 August 2017, 12:24:53 AM
Fingers crossed

There seems to be very variable experiences even with the same 'company', I'm glad I enjoy painting
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Nirnman on 10 August 2017, 08:49:45 AM
Turbil Miniatures also have a  Utube channel that goes under the name of Imperator Vespasian here the father and son do unboxing terrain building and play through some excruciating games demos. I say excruciating as the father and son play through exchanging inane comments without explaining any of the rule mechanisms and more often than not using home made amendments. I have to admit the terrain they build look good and the forces they use are well painted. I have never been tempted to use their painting services as I too like painting my own figures.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: skywalker on 10 August 2017, 11:27:41 AM
I have used Fairy Powerspray and it works okay on metal, plastic and resin.
Spray the figures, I lie them in a old foil take away container spray them liberally, leave for 15 minutes then rinse under warm running water using an old toothbrush to work into the nooks and crannies. Then turn over and  repeat as needed  :) :)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: sunjester on 10 August 2017, 10:28:39 PM
Just to add in my experience of Turbil now that I have received my WSS infantry after just 3 weeks.

For the price they are reasonably painted and based and look very effective on the tabletop.

However there are a couple on minor problems.

Firstly, the figures were based on 20x20mm mdf, as I'd requested, but an overenthusiastic application of basing material meant that they are all a bit irregular shaped now, and I cannot line the units up with the correct frontage. I can easily rectify this by running a Stanley knife down the side of the bases.

Secondly, where the unit had hat lace, this has been carelessly applied and often the entire top of the tricorn is white. A small dab of black paint will correct this in no time.

These are minor issues and will only take me a few minutes to put right, however I am surprised that these points were not noticed before the figures were sent back to me. I am not a disatisified customer, just one that is not as satisfied as I might of been. Minor points like this detract from what was otherwise a speedy and reasonable quality service.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 10 August 2017, 10:38:39 PM
Hmm... the plot thickens!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Leman on 11 August 2017, 05:56:35 AM
It  might have.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 19 August 2017, 11:32:39 PM
Well I checked the Post Office tracker for my figures and they were signed for on 31st July , so they have now had them three working weeks. No figures as yet and no correspondence.

I thought that as I was a dissatisfied customer returning  faulty product I might have got a speedy rectification.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 22 August 2017, 11:43:11 PM


Well the supposedly repainted figures came back from Turbil miniatures today.


Main Issues:-

Figures had obviously not been undercoated

Less bare metal ( note less not none)

The underside of the horses muzzle was still bare metal - I know you don't see it but it should have been painted.

Some of the horses had bare metal on most if not all of the underside

most had seen a lick of paint but not enough to completely cover the bare metal

The Left hand side of the jackets were not painted - obviously to difficult to get the brush in there. 

At least 75% of the figures had not been touched. of the remaining 25% perhaps 8 were satisfactory as far as the jackets were concerned


Much of the horse furniture was unpainted including the broad girth strip under their stomachs.

Most horses had a black line around the girth vaguely on the girth strap. a few only went half way round.

The horse furniture that had been painted was seemed to be by just Running a black brush round the neck where the reins are

No change here.  No attempt to paint horse furniture on black horses.

ALL horses had black tails and manes even the whites and grey ones. Making them look like pantomime ponies

No change here, although to be fair I had not asked for this to be changed ( I think I had lost the will by then)


A couple had sand embedded in the paint - obviously they had not cleared the painting area properly after basing some other figures.

One still had the sand, the other had had it gouged out leaving a deep line on the figure that had just been over painted.

Odd spots of bare metal where they had handled the figure before Varnishing

Less of these

One regiment has the facing colour from the saddle all over the bottom of the musket stock on all but 2 of the figures

Fixed



So as they have had the figures for another three weeks. Not quite sure why as the corrections they have made would only have taken a hour or so. The figures are still way below standard. I have opened a PayPal case requesting a full refund of the £64 painting costs. 

To show I am not trying to get a refund and keep the figures I have offered to send them back to Turbil to do as they wish with them provided the cover my £27 bare metal costs.

To get them up to standard I would have to do the following after Trying to match colours used

Horses (all)
Touch up all horses base colour
Paint over mains and tails with base colour
Overpaint the black round their necks and girth strap
Pick out horse furniture in colour that stands out

Cavalrymen

Paint all unpainted areas on tunics
Touch up figures where pint has got in wrong place from painting tunics
Pant all half painted faces (50% of Figures)
Paint straps on blankets
Touch in musket straps as most are only half done

Run suitable coloured wash over horses and cavalrymen

Varnish the whole figure and base

So basically this touch up (if I can find the correct colour) will take as long as painting  from scratch. If I cant get a near match on the colours it will involve more work than painting from scratch, with the possible exception of those on black horses

I am so fed up with them I am hoping they will take them off my hands by refunding the painting cost and the bare metal cost. 

If I only get the  painting cost refunded I will probably touch up the two regiment with black horses and bin the rest. 

I might ebay them at bare metal cost with  heading

"10mm WSS Cavalry VERY POORLY painted by Turbil miniatures - Bare metal cost"

Then in the description explain what is wrong with the painting

If someone feels they are worth the work - good luck to them

A very very P*SSED OFF 

Orcs  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
















Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: FierceKitty on 22 August 2017, 11:52:25 PM
Take your revenge with a clean conscience. Shoddy service should not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 22 August 2017, 11:56:46 PM
Not at all good.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Techno on 23 August 2017, 06:44:00 AM
What's the going rate for individual figures, then, Gang ?

I presume it varies considerably, depending on the standard of the painting ?

How many figures did you get painted for your £64, Mark ?

Just curious.

Cheers - Phil.

Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Techno on 23 August 2017, 06:44:00 AM
What's the going rate for individual figures, then, Gang ?

I presume it varies considerably, depending on the standard of the painting ?

How many figures did you get painted for your £64, Mark ?

Just curious.

Cheers - Phil.


Hi Phil,

They were 75 pence per cavalry figure, so I got 84 painted (if you can call it that).  They were a little on the cheap side but not by much. eg Fernando enterprises charges 80p for a reasonabley painted cavalry figure with more details on it .

Sunjester had a similar number of infantry painted for him and these were nicely done.


What has really annoyed me is I sent them back with a detailed list of the issues - particularly the half painted tunics and no attempt has been made to correct this. Even stuff they have corrected like painting the Girth strap on the Horses has been done so shoddily it has actually made the figure look worse.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Matt J on 23 August 2017, 07:15:15 AM
That price is mental. To earn minimum wage you'd have to paint a cavalry figure in 6 minutes. I know you can set them up production style but I cant see how the hell you can make any figure good in 6 minutes.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: kev1964 on 23 August 2017, 08:12:30 AM
I have to agree with you Matt, how anyone can make a half decent wage on those prices is beyond me. I'm a reasonably quick painter so i timed myself the other day , the fig was a ready primed FPW French dragoon, there were nine colours and i just did one coat of each and it took me 13 minutes. Production line is obviously a bit quicker  but  no way  could i  keep that pace up all day, i dont think even a super fast painter could do more than 10 per hour to a reasonable standard and that's only £7.50.
I have heard all the bad comments and seen the great feedback on ebay, i can only assume their customers are happy with a 6mm figure that has blue paint indicating French and red as British, or their relatives are putting a good word in  ;D.

I hope this gets sorted out for you Orcs , but anyone can take this up as a living and then call it professional if they are being paid, even if they turn out rubbish.

kev
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 09:18:40 AM
I agree with both Kev and matt on the pricing and the fact you cannot make minimum wage. However there are many "cottage industries" where this is the case. 

How much they earn per hour is not the issue. I did not set their prices  they did, and having done so they  are contractually obliged need to supply me with the product I paid for.  Something they they have failed miserably at TWICE

I am personally confused how they can supply Sunjester's  figures (which I have seen) and Wombles (which I have seen  on his blog) to a fairly good standard and then paint mine  abysmally twice, even  when the faults were pointed out to them in detail
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 09:57:54 AM
Crikey. That doesn't sound good at all :/

Especially bad if other shave come back at reasonable quality - did you (or someone else?) mention they thought they might be "farmed out" - I'd hope they wouldn't have the same person do them again, if so, but sounds like they did...

Hope PayPal comes through for you, and you get it sorted to a decent satisfaction - from what you've said I'd be tempted to just overspray them and start from scratch!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 09:57:54 AM
Crikey. That doesn't sound good at all :/

Especially bad if other shave come back at reasonable quality - did you (or someone else?) mention they thought they might be "farmed out" - I'd hope they wouldn't have the same person do them again, if so, but sounds like they did...

Hope PayPal comes through for you, and you get it sorted to a decent satisfaction - from what you've said I'd be tempted to just overspray them and start from scratch!
I was only voicing that it might be a possibility as it would explain the variable quality of the product.

They have been fairly thickly painted so over spraying them is probably not an option
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 10:28:47 AM
It does sound likely, either that or they're a "friday afternoon special" and got bunged thru last minute ? Not that that helps either way :/

Damn, they'd need a thorough stripping before trying to recover them? I hate stripping mini's >_<
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 23 August 2017, 10:38:24 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 22 August 2017, 11:43:11 PM

Well the supposedly repainted figures came back from Turbil miniatures today.


I'm really sorry that you're still unhappy with their service I was hoping that they would get this resolved correctly and promptly for you

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 10:42:59 AM
Quote from: Womble67 on 23 August 2017, 10:38:24 AM
I'm really sorry that you're still unhappy with their service I was hoping that they would get this resolved correctly and promptly for you

Take care

Andy

Thanks Andy, its not your fault in any way. As I have said I have seen Sunjesters ones "In the flesh"and they are fine, the ones on your blog are fine. Had I received mine even the second time around to the same standard I would have happily recommended them. 
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Womble67 on 23 August 2017, 10:44:37 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 10:42:59 AM
Thanks Andy, its not your fault in any way. As I have said I have seen Sunjesters ones "In the flesh"and they are fine, the ones on your blog are fine. Had I received mine even the second time around to the same standard I would have happily recommended them. 

I have also personally messaged you regarding this matter

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Westmarcher on 23 August 2017, 12:04:17 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 09:57:54 AM
- did you (or someone else?) mention they thought they might be "farmed out" - I'd hope they wouldn't have the same person do them again, if so, but sounds like they did...
- from what you've said I'd be tempted to just overspray them and start from scratch!

Only ordered professionally painted figures twice. First was a long time ago and consisted of a mixed order of 9 x 10mm Prussian Kurassiers and 12 x 6mm Austrian Hussars which seemed to take forever. The Prussians came back as Austrians(!) and clearly conformed to the thick black undercoat school of painting thus filling in and obscuring much of the detail. The Austrians were painted in enamel, so clearly a different 'artist,' and unremoved flash painted over, giving an overall shiny Mr Blobby look. I had to re-paint much of both orders. I won't say what painting service it was because it was a long time ago and so hopefully their artists/standards have since improved. The second time was a couple of years back - a handful of 15mm to finish off an army I had lost interest in - painted by Kev whose work is illustrated in his blog/website (Fat Wally) and thankfully, what I saw there was what I got. Whilst I'm certain Kev painted his order, I suspect my other order was sub-contracted out which, is a bit cheeky to say the least, advertising their own skills but then using my money to meet a back-log and at the same time experiment with new 'artists.' 
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 12:27:28 PM
Speaking as a one man band, what you see on my photo's is what you'll get ;)

Guaranteed acrylics, as blowed if I can stand the faff of enamel thinners & brush cleaner even if the Mrs. would let me use it daily in the house anyway!

Bit rude indeed to fill in a back log or test out new painters or dissimilar techniques under an existing order. I mean, surely you'd want a similar finish/technique across a period/army?!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Terry37 on 23 August 2017, 05:50:12 PM
I have been following this thread with great interest, waiting to see the final outcome. I have to say I would never be able to accept such poor quality work, not even if they were free. I don't consider myself the greatest painter, but I do work very hard to insure a fully painted figures, and that colors are correct and not slopped where they don't belong and then left. I also do not subscribe to the 3 foot rule making it OK.

I have only had figures painted for me a couple of times, due to my work being so slow and needing some armies quickly to get into the brawl. But even then I ended up doing a near complete repaint myself.

To me, you have given them more than a fair opportunity to fix their work, and they did not. And as you mentioned earlier I would think that fixing figures from an unhappy customer, would take priority and have gotten them back to you post haste. In college and early career, when I had no money for toys, I painted 54 MM collector figures for my hobby money. I averaged between $100 USD and $150 USD per figure. However, I invested an average of 30+ hours painting time in a single figure, and never once had a customer complaint. If I had, you can be sure I would have jumped through hoops to fix it to the customer's satisfaction.

Regret you unhappy experience!

Terry
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 23 August 2017, 07:47:45 PM
I'm only delayed on my present order for Sunjester by the need for the right shade of blue, which my supplier has promised (honest Sunjester, they are trying hard)!  :^o
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 23 August 2017, 10:36:40 PM
The saga is over!

I have logged in this evening to see that Turbil miniatures has fully refunded my painting costs.   When I placed the issue with the Pay Pal Resolution team I did send Turbil Miniatures an explanation why I had gone down that route.  I have not received a reply and do not really expect too.

I am still puzzled as to how the same company and supposedly the same person  can send Womble and Sunjester perfectly reasonable figures and me a complete pile of crap!! but we shall probably never know

That leaves me with the semi-painted figures that I do not really know what to do with. I expect the majority will end up in the bin or on ebay being sold as part painted figures.

Thank you all for your support and helpful comments, especially Womble.

Orcs





Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Leon on 23 August 2017, 11:23:11 PM
Sorry to hear this outcome but at least you've got your money back for the painting. 

On the earlier point about pricing, this is an industry-wide problem that results in everything being artificially under-priced.  Whether it's a painting service, a retailer or a manufacturer, there's always someone charging a ridiculously low price for their product. Sometimes it's because it's a second income for them, sometimes because they're retired and have a decent pension, occasionally they're just not great at working out their costs and choosing a suitable price point.  The knock-on effect is that their competitors are then forced to try and match them on price as that's the major concern to most people.

As an example of two companies doing 28mm Naps: Company A has got business premises and a couple of staff, they pay professional sculptors to make the figures and have them produced by a casting company.  Company B is a one-man operation, run by a guy who retired from his day job.  He does his own sculpting and casting.  Company charges £1.75 per figure, Company B charges £1.00 per figure.  The average customer looking at both companies/products online sees the pricing difference and labels Company A as too expensive, even though Company A is likely making less money than Company B. 
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Sandinista on 24 August 2017, 12:19:20 AM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 23 August 2017, 12:27:28 PM
Speaking as a one man band, what you see on my photo's is what you'll get ;)

Guaranteed acrylics, as blowed if I can stand the faff of enamel thinners & brush cleaner even if the Mrs. would let me use it daily in the house anyway!

Bit rude indeed to fill in a back log or test out new painters or dissimilar techniques under an existing order. I mean, surely you'd want a similar finish/technique across a period/army?!

I for one am happy to recommend Nathan as a painter, always professional, and having met him in May I can confirm he is a thoroughly nice chap too :-)

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 08:21:46 AM
Thank you Ian :D

If you collect in person you get a coffee along with the mini's, and a chat ;)

I have to say I think I'm guilty of the under-pricing (as it's a side hobby for pun money) - but then, I never really know, and having conducted quite a lot of price comparisons I was still absolutely adrift for costing!

Nicely resolved, Orcs - are they strippable at all? I hate stripping, but sometimes you have to :/ Or is the £27 of lead better written off and eBay'd to fund some new ones...
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 24 August 2017, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 08:21:46 AM

Nicely resolved, Orcs - are they strippable at all? I hate stripping, but sometimes you have to :/ Or is the £27 of lead better written off and eBay'd to fund some new ones...

I thnk I can probably save two of the 8 regiments fairly easily, as they have black horses so they do not have the thick black line round their necks ( its about 4 mil wide) that is supposed to be the horse furniture. they others need the whole horse repainted again and the cavalryman sorted out so are effectively a complete repaint.

The rest need the whole horse repainted again and the cavalryman sorted out so are effectively a complete repaint.  I will probably ebay for bare metal cost.  As I would rather cut my losses and spend my time painting than faff about stripping and repainting.

I am also looking to do a deal with Lemmy for his  WSS army. that has quite a bit of bare metal and a couple of packs of horse.

I will bear both you and Lemmy in mind when I next look to get stuff painted.

Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Terry37 on 24 August 2017, 01:07:53 PM
Leon,

That is an interesting perspective of the industry. I know there are many who fall into the category I call "Cottage Industry", a term I've heard and used since the 60's.

With that said, I will return to a vendor who has exceptional service and is customer oriented, even if the cost is a little more. One can buy lead anywhere as there is an abundance of figures makers out there. But not all of them offer the service that truly results in a happy customer. And Leon, Pendraken is a leader in service and customer sat in my book!

Terry
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: d_Guy on 24 August 2017, 01:11:07 PM
Amen and Amen!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Thanks for the mention, and that reminds me I need to crack on with d_guy's chaps ;)

Good luck with the eBay effort, I hope you recover a useful fund for new lead then!
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: d_Guy on 24 August 2017, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Thanks for the mention, and that reminds me I need to crack on with d_guy's chaps ;)

I very much like everything I've seen so far and Sandinista is very pleased with his so no worries mate. :)

One of my favorite lines from "Master and Commander" , "And it will be ready when it is ready!"  ;)
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 01:59:01 PM
Splendid! Now back to your usual programming, move along, nothing to see here :D
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 24 August 2017, 02:39:05 PM
Just for information, any commissions I take on are for pocket money, it's not my main look be of work.
I just hope I can do a good enough job, each and  very time.  :-SS
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: Orcs on 24 August 2017, 03:40:44 PM
Leons perspective is very true. 

One of my brothers used to be a professional wood turner, and he would find that when he went to craft fares he was charging prices to give him a income, but many of the other wood turners were really only after getting the cost of materials back, so were charging far less than him.
Title: Re: Getting my WSS Cavalry "Profesionally" painted
Post by: toxicpixie on 24 August 2017, 03:56:47 PM
My other half does a bit of arty/crafty stuff like that - the amount of work and result of finished product simply bears no relationship to what people want to pay, so it's basically lucky to cover the material cost and a coffee, tbh. Very discouraging!

In painting terms I think the only things I hit a "living wage" on are same pose/colour scheme strips of  6mm where I can knock out a "post tax and costs" amount makes a reasonable hourly return. Maybe "similar pose/scheme & not too complex" 28mm's where I can do half a dozen colours in no great fiddly detail then a shade tone and done... anything in between tends to end up a bit fiddly, and Pendrakens LoA are very annoying, as they're in so many poses with such good detail there's no easy assembly line process :D