Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => 20th Century => Topic started by: Sunray on 07 June 2017, 08:20:18 AM

Title: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 07 June 2017, 08:20:18 AM
With the anticipated launch of Pendraken Korean range, my family (well my son and I- with other turning up for a game) are planning the Mother of all Bush wars.  East African states of North & South Coryria over the disputed province of Zembala (of Wild Geese fame). Circa 1969-70

As we speak large numbers of Pendraken, Time Cast, Minifigs and Irregular figures are being sourced and painted.

Now, its a low tech war - lots of WW2 kit, so BKC 2 with a few tweaks.  Air superiority begins with North Coryrian forces - Soviet/WP client state
The opening COIN war in Zembala they use Aero Delfin L-29

The South Coryian Arms Mission have a dice decided mission to recruit ground crew/pilots/aircraft. 

When we looked at what was out there in the late 1960s we find :

Mustangs, Thunderbolts, HA-112s (Me-109 with Merlin engine) and obsolete jets like Meteor.

Question to all you Air war buffs - A Mustang or a Meteor with an experience mercenary pilot meets a Delfin ?   Dice will decide - but who should get the +1 ?   

Who rules the skys over Zembala ?

Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 07 June 2017, 09:47:00 AM
I would use A&A Games Engineering rules called 'Scramble' as it features all those planes.
Going by the Football War of 1969, experience wins over shiny kit!
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 07 June 2017, 11:12:48 AM
Sounds useful, the Football war and Biafra are what inspired the discussion (merc Lynn Garrison flew in both) 

The Biafra Air Force started out with  B25 & Invader. The Nigerian had only helicopters until a Mission secured MiG 15, 17 and II-28 bombers.

Even with NAF air superiority, the BAF staged a raid with Malmo MFI-9s and destroyed quite a few Mig 17s and II-28s on the ground.

As outlined above, I don't want to get into a complex airwar game a few inches above the table.  I want the dogfights decided off table  and superiority - the freedom of use of ground attack - well settled  prior to each game phase.

If the Reds start with the Delfins and superiority. The Blues by phase 2 acquire a Meteor, by phase 3 they have mercenary pilot/crew - will they then have air superiority in that phase .....until the Reds get MiGs ? 
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 07 June 2017, 11:13:02 AM
Will the football war involved  F4U Corsairs and Caviler Mustangs - not exactly hi tech. In Korea a Sea Fury bagged a MiG 15, and in Vietnam a Skyraider go a 17. Both were though to be extreme luck, although  the better quality of pilots was thought to be a factor. Normally the faster aircraft will be able to disengage, but a fighter capable of high subsonic speed is able to hold with a supersonic one, as dogfights are not fought at speeds much above mach 0.9, the pilots pass out with g force otherwise.
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 07 June 2017, 02:39:52 PM
Looking at the spec of the Meteor V Delfin . Assuming indigenous pilot in Delfin v experienced Merc, I am minded to award the WW2 jet  a +2 .

So if the Blue Airforce secures a Meteor and vet pilot I will do the dice on this basis.

However, the old kite will need a dice roll  prior to every requested mission- including CAP. This will reflect the spares problem with vintage kit in a bush war far from home.  If she can't get airborne, the Delfin will rule the skys.

The amateur nature of the ground forces will also limit FAC to professional units.- unless scheduled attacks.

Now, I need a rule(s) for the MF1-9 style Biafra commando raid which took advantage of very experienced pilots and the fact that the enemy had no radar & very little AA.

I don't like the complications of airwar taking over - but God they make great eye candy - so a little rule making and dice rolling  is worth it  :)
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 08 June 2017, 12:46:49 AM
Hello Sunray

Back from my travels and ready to put my tuppence on the table. I'd go with the ex-fighters over the Delfin. However I like your idea on the reliability of old kit/kite.

There's nothing wrong with eye candy :D.

Speaking of eye candy, you may be interested in a book I picked up in Lviv of all places:-

(http://www.helion.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/600x/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/b/r/brown_waters_of_africa_2.jpg)

Maybe you can combine the air and water eye candy and have sensory overload :D

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 08 June 2017, 06:24:59 AM
Hi Vic ! Missed your on the forum mate.  Glad to see you back.  :-bd

I "invented" the reliability rule some years ago, in a bush war scenario when Red Force with Saladin A/Cs   encountered a Blue Force with a Churchill.

This was in 15mm with AK47 "blood & thunder" rules, but I put the idea in my pocket. 

Now you are back on duty, Master Scrounger - apart from the Bird dog, any piston small aircraft out there?

And yes, I have a Bush War brown waters navy. Practically all scratch built.
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: pierre the shy on 08 June 2017, 06:54:58 AM
Here's a bit of fanciful "dogfighting" using the Aero L-39 Albatros to get you in the mood. It was designed during the 1960s as a replacement for the Aero L-29 DelfĂ­n.

https://youtu.be/k6y3lwwokg4

Enjoy it for what it is ;)
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 08 June 2017, 09:55:47 AM
Ah...Tomorrow never dies.

Yeah - a good advert for the Aero L-39 - even if styled as a MiG !

The Czechs offered them to the Ireland after 9/11 - the Irish Air Corps only have piston trainers (Pilatus). It was a buy 2 get 1 free deal.

But the Irish were broke, so asked the UK Government to task the RAF to defend Irish Airspace.  I supposed to be a State Secret.  ;D ;D ;D


In 2015 the RAF  scrambled from Lossiemouth and intercepted a brace of Russian "Bears" bound for the Shannon. A lot of covert US kit was parked on then ramp at the time. The Bears turned and headed towards Cuba.
Title: Re: Air superiorty - vintage fighters v more modern trainers
Post by: Sunray on 16 June 2017, 08:59:59 PM
I received my F toys Meteor this morning.  What a detailed little gem it is.  Its now sporting a mean payload of 4" rockets

What I really like is the ball joint on the stand. This allows the aircraft to be tilted to an angle. I use the DropZone stands, so glued the ball joint to the top of the rod.

Looks neat, and its eye candy to see the Meteor bank into an attack.

-1 to any opponent ! :)