Does somebody have any reference about how Hanoverian horse regiments flags looked like?
I have ever seen only one Hanoverian dragoon flag and this was from a painting from year 1735 (painting of military parade in Bemerode).
It was white with a few horizontal lines in red (which was a facing colour for this regiment).
I think I will paint it this very way if I dont find any information.
Any ideas?
What about the ones here: http://www.warflag.com/flags/syw/sywhanover.shtml - unless those are all infantry?
Quote from: nikharwood on 22 October 2010, 05:16:20 PM
What about the ones here: http://www.warflag.com/flags/syw/sywhanover.shtml - unless those are all infantry?
Yes they are all infantry. Hanoverian infantry flags are much easier to find in the net (they are at kronoskaf site for example).
As for cavalry it is more difficult. Kronoskaf (project syw site) has only one such flag for Hanoverian horse granadier guards, but
I dont paint this regiment unfortunately.
I've had another quick scoot-round but can't find anything... :(
Pengel and Hurt have a booklet which illustrates Hanoverian cavalry flags as well as infantry ones. Don't have it with me at present, but I'll try and look it out to get the correct title.
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 23 October 2010, 08:02:24 AM
Pengel and Hurt have a booklet which illustrates Hanoverian cavalry flags as well as infantry ones. Don't have it with me at present, but I'll try and look it out to get the correct title.
Mollinary
thanks, this would be very helpful
Greetings
Woods' 'Armies of the Seven Years War Vol 1' has a table with some Hanoverian cavalry standards listed.
Horse: White King's Colour, coloured regimental colour. I've used the names of the inhabers of 1758 as a guide.
Horse
1CA Sporcken - K: White, gold braid, arms of England, motto below of 'Dieu et Mon Droit'; R: White field
1CB Hesse - K: White, silver braid, arms of England, motto below of 'Dieu et Mon Droit'; R: Yellow field
2CA Bremer - K: White, GR within a garter, motto below of 'Dieu et Mon Droit'; R: Green field
2CB Hammerstein K: White, white horse in a red ground in a garter, motto below of 'Dieu et Mon Droit'; R: White field
3CA Grothaus K: White, gold braid, arms of England, motto below of 'Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense'; R: Red field
3CB Hodenburg K: White, silver braid, arms of England, motto below of 'Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense'; R: Red field
4CA Walthausen - K: White, GR within a garter, motto below of 'Nec Aspera Terrent'; R: Blue field
4CB Breitenbach - K: White, white horse in a red ground in a garter, motto below of 'Nec Aspera Terrent'; R: Blue field
No source is given - it could be Pengel & Hurt. A TMP message at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=169923 gives some possible sources.
The numbering of units dates from after the SYW and the symmetry of colours is possibly a bit suspicious.
Regards
Edward
kustenjaeger, THANK YOU!
I have just finished paintiing Hodenburg regiment (Pendraken British Horse Guards green stuff conversion).
Is it this design for this regiment's standard which I found in google:
It's not so easy as Kustenjager described.
In P&H description of standards took 5 pages.
Generally:
Cavarly standards were quadrangular, with fringes.
Thicks floral ornament (called "braid" in the book) goes along the border of flags.
King's colours were white, regimantal - different colours. Obverse could be different than reverse.
Hodenburg (3 C-B) standard is described as:
King's colour:
obverse - white with gold braid, the arms of England with motto below "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE"
reverse - enwined "GR"
Regimental colour red field
obverse - white horse within a garter
reverse - column with scales with balanced position, upon a column a drawn sword, below a trophy of arms, motto on scroll below: PRO LEGE ET GREGE
Motives descrived above are also illustrated on black-white drawing.
Thanks Maciek!
I could predict it would be something that complicated. Exactly in Hanoverin style.
Would I be wrong if I say It is the most difficult SYW army to paint?
But it is fun, too :)
Here are some pictures (all drawn by me)
General layout of the standard
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/mk_1972/hanower/1flag.jpg)
obverse motives
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/mk_1972/hanower/1obverse.jpg)
reverse motives
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/mk_1972/hanower/1reverse.jpg)
On different flags details could differ, e.g. scales could be unbalanced, there could be no scroll etc.
It's all described in P&G.
I wish you good luck with this standard in 10 mm :D
Maciek. These drawings are very nice!
I would have to simplify them somehow for 10mm though (I am not Pawel :) ).
nevertheless, thanks!
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Hanoverian_Army :)
Thanks Pawel, I know this exellent site as my own pocket. Unfortunately there are no Hanoverian horse flags there. No problem, Maciek has helped me with it alrerady.
Can I belatedly say that I have a book called "The Hanoverian Army During the Seven Years War" by Joachim Niemeyer and Georg Ortenburg, published in Copenhagen in 1977, which has a reproduction of the original sketch of the Hodenberg colour, which confirms the P & H design. The original sketch is apparently in the Historical Museum in Hanover. There is also a photograph of the original king's standard of the Alt Bremer Regiment of Horse, plus descriptions of all the other colours carried by those regiments that actually carried colours. If these are of any interest just say.
Hertsblue, ofcourse I am interested! I have just noticed your post. Are there any pictures of Hanoverian generals, too?
It is really hard to find any pictures of them.
There are no pictures of generals in this particular book. Trawling through my bookcases I can only find illustrations of two generals connected with the Hanoverian army: Ferdinand of Brunswick, who commanded His Britannic Majesty's army in Germany (and therefore the Hanoverians) and the Graf von Schaumberg-Lippe-Buckeburg, who served with the Hanoverian army at Hastenbeck, Lutterberg and Minden.
Ferdinand wears the uniform of his Prussian regiment - dark blue coat with red turn-backs, buff lapels, cuffs, waistcoat and breeches, black riding boots and silver and black sash. He also wears the blue ribbon of the Order of the Garter from left shoulder to right hip and the star of the order on his left breast. His hat is the feathered cocked hat of a Prussian field-marshal (which he was). Source is a portrait after Tischbein.
The Graf, by contrast, wears a very sober garb - plain black tricorn hat, plain dark-blue coat with no turn-backs and no ornamentation whatever, blue waistcoat, buff breeches and black riding-boots. The only splash of colour is his orange ribbon of the Prussian Order of the Black Eagle worn over the left shoulder but under the coat. Source is a portrait by Sir Joshua Reynolds.
Hope this helps.
Ray
Thank you Ray! I knew this portrait of Ferdinand, but the second one will be very useful.
Is there also a photo of any Hanoverian dragoon regiment standard? I would like to have at least general idea how they looked like.
Were they square or of other shape?
All the dragoon standards seem to have been oblong in shape and there was one for each squadron. The first squadron carried the King's Standard which was always white and bore on one side the Royal Arms within the Garter supported by the lion and unicorn. The devices on the other side varied from regiment to regiment. The squadron standards all seem to have been of the regiment's facing colour - red for Veltheim and Bock, blue for Walthausen and Muller. Again, the devices varied from regiment to regiment and from squadron to squadron. If you have any particular regiment in mind I can be more precise. Mind you, if you can render some of these designs in 10mm I will personally nominate you for the Nobel Prize for figure-painting!
Thanks for information. I have just painted Hanoverian dragoon regiment Nr 7 C Busche. But I am also going to make Breitenbach regiment. Do you have standards of these two?
OK, here goes:
Walthausen/Breidenbach 6C
King's Standard: White, embroidered gold. On one side the Royal Arms with the Garter and motto. On the other a lion couchant upon a trophy of arms, holding a sword entwined with laurel. Motto above: "Parta tueri" (Guard what you have won).
Second Standard: blue. One side "GR" surmounted by a crown, within the Garter. Motto below "Dieu et mon droit" Other side, an arm issuing from clouds, holding a drawn sword entwined with laurel. Motto below: "Cum deo et gladio" (with God and the sword).
Third Standard: blue. The Arms of Great Britain and Ireland and Luneburg linked by two interlaced palm trees and a chain. Motto below: "Et stirps et amor jungebant" (Thus are the race and love conjoined). Other side, a column resting on trophies of arms. On the base of the column the cipher GR. On the pillar a drawn sword with a pair of scales. Motto above: "Pro lege et grege"
Fourth Standard: blue. The Royal Arms within the Garter with motto below.On the other St George on a white horse, his lance piercing the dragon lying under his horse's feet. Motto above: "Virtus animi superat omnia"
Bussche/Muller 7C
KIng's Standard: white. 1) A white horse on a red field within the Garter surmounted by a crown. Motto below: "Nec aspera terrent" GR monogram in each corner. 2) A two-headed figure with an open helmet. Trophies of arms on both sides. Motto above: "Decet et ornet"
Second Standard: blue. 1) Mars seated on trophies of war, in one hand a sword and the other a laurel branch. Motto below: "Post bellum nomen" 2) St George killing the dragon. Motto above: "Virtus animi superat omnia"
Third Standard: blue. 1) GR with crown above, supported by lion and unicorn. Motto below: "Dieu et mon droit" 2) the "Bulow Bird" (an oriole) holding a ring in its beak. Motto below: "Felici auspicio"
Fourth Standard: blue. 1) An eagle flying towards the sun with a young man (that's what it says!) Motto below: "Prosperis favet" 2) Shield bearing four crowns, guarded by a lion with a sword. GR cipher in the corners.
Phew!
Seems much more complicated than I thought. But I am not a fanatic and will try to simplify them a little bit.
Thank you for your help! I will try to make good use of this information.
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Hanoverian_Army#Line_Cavalry
There are images here, but I think you have to join the site to view them all