Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => Ancients to Renaissance (3000BC - 1680) => Topic started by: mollinary on 06 March 2017, 03:22:09 PM

Title: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 06 March 2017, 03:22:09 PM
As Simon Miller and I draw closer to completing our adaptation of his To the Strongest ancient rules to the ECW I have worked up an Edgehill scenario to go the rounds.  It got a first outing at the TtS championships in Chalgrove just over a week ago (photos on Simon's blog: www.bigredbat.blogspot.co.uk ). 

I have also been having ideas on how to enhance the visual aspect, and am now working on 'destroyed unit' markers, to occupy space where units cease to be, and generally clutter the battlefield realistically.  Below are the some photos of where I have got to, using Pendraken's casualty figures and Pete Berry's Baccus basing system. Hope you like them.

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/PendrakenMiniatures/Forum%20Stuff/ECWMarkers1_zpso2jckvbq.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/PendrakenMiniatures/Forum%20Stuff/ECWMarkers2_zps2f6twota.jpg)

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Roy on 06 March 2017, 03:51:59 PM
Cool. I like the fallen pikes. I'd probably not have thought to have included them if I'd had done similar  :-bd
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 06 March 2017, 03:55:57 PM
Thanks Roy,

Yes, like you I would not have thought of the pikes until Simon mentioned it, and then it was obvious! The flag was a late addition, as I saw one on my painting board - I am quite pleased with the effect.  :D  :)

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Leman on 06 March 2017, 04:19:45 PM
Some very nice ideas there.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 March 2017, 04:45:24 PM
Those are brilliant.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: d_Guy on 06 March 2017, 04:54:40 PM
Hi Mollinary,
I had seen the pictures over at TMP and enjoyed looking through the pics on bigredbat.  Congratulations! The figures and the assembled units are quit impressive. The idea of destroyed unit markers is good and they look just excellent. I will - of course - steal the idea (but I doubt my execution will be nearly as good).
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Subedai on 06 March 2017, 04:57:47 PM
Hmmm, that idea has potential.

MickS
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 06 March 2017, 05:03:44 PM
Reasonable stuff
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: fred. on 06 March 2017, 06:14:41 PM
These look good - I too like the idea of putting the pikes on the stand.

Do these have any in game effect?

I've thought a few times about leaving casualty markers on the table, so show the trail of the battle, and to act as rough ground for later fighting.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 06 March 2017, 07:01:17 PM
Hi Fred,

You have got it in one. The intention is to turn the wreck into rough terrain for the remainder of  the battle.

Molinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Shutuphippie on 06 March 2017, 08:34:28 PM
Very tasty - what a cool idea
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Techno on 06 March 2017, 08:34:34 PM
 :-bd

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: fred. on 06 March 2017, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 06 March 2017, 07:01:17 PM
Hi Fred,

You have got it in one. The intention is to turn the wreck into rough terrain for the remainder of  the battle.

Molinary

Very interesting - a good realistic idea, but not something often seen in rules.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: paulr on 07 March 2017, 04:19:40 AM
 :-bd =D> :-bd =D>
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: toxicpixie on 07 March 2017, 10:43:22 AM
Bice looking, good game idea, spot on :)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: DFlynSqrl on 07 March 2017, 01:53:57 PM
This is very cool.  I've played games where we'd leave casualty figures on the table were troop losses occurred.  By the end of the game all the casualty figures on the table really help tell the story.  A neat, but also sobering effect.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 07 March 2017, 05:11:29 PM
Hi DFS,

I have been thinking of this sort of thing for some time, but as I already use individually based casualty figures to indicate disorder I needed something a bit more dramatic.  Then I saw Simon Miller's amazing  dead 28mm elephant base, and the idea was born.  It will be a bit of an effort to do enough bases to cover the big battles, but worth it I think. It is very encouraging to get all the positive comments, it will spur me on for the next batch!

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Womble67 on 07 March 2017, 11:02:26 PM
These  look  brilliant

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: cameronian on 08 March 2017, 08:05:47 AM
Meticulous attention to detail, superb execution, as always, respect  ;)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: kev1964 on 08 March 2017, 08:39:07 AM
What a great looking battlefield, it's lovely to see these on show, it would be even better with the other 2000 figs on the table  :).  Also a great idea with the casualties .

kev
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 21 March 2017, 01:06:36 PM
These are coming on apace. Leon has kindly agreed fo put up the two latest photos showing the 12 cavalry markers, and the 7 foot units done so far. Another 13 on the table as we speak!

Mollinary

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/PendrakenMiniatures/Forum%20Stuff/BrentnallECW1_zpsylslsyki.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/PendrakenMiniatures/Forum%20Stuff/BrentnallECW2_zpsomw3lcsd.jpg)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Terry37 on 21 March 2017, 05:19:08 PM
Very nice and also very creative. I too love the pikes as that really adds to the look. Well done!

Terry
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 21 March 2017, 08:40:10 PM
Thanks to Leon for inserting the piccies in my last post. Now moved on to 10 completed foot bases, hope to do another 5 tomorrow. With luck, should be all done by Thursday night!

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: paulr on 21 March 2017, 10:57:59 PM
 :-bd =D> :-bd =D>
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: FierceKitty on 22 March 2017, 02:00:40 AM
Cor. There's been some hot action in this part of the field, I see.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: kev1964 on 22 March 2017, 07:18:07 AM
Cracking job mate, the broken pikes and flags really set them off.


kev
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 22 March 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Brilliant
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Leman on 22 March 2017, 07:47:06 AM
Excellent ideas there.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Techno on 22 March 2017, 08:15:32 AM
Excellent !  :-bd

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: cameronian on 22 March 2017, 11:13:16 AM
Lovely work Andrew.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: DFlynSqrl on 22 March 2017, 01:50:22 PM
I like this a lot!
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 22 March 2017, 05:08:56 PM
Thanks again for the comments, guys, much appreciated.  Foot units up to 15, so today's target met. Tomorrow is another day!

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Westmarcher on 10 June 2017, 07:35:17 PM
Don't recall seeing these earlier. Bravo!  =D>
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: grahambeyrout on 10 June 2017, 08:22:52 PM
They look good, and certainly show what where the action has been. My only reservation, and people are going to hate me for this, is that would the unit flags be left on the ground by the survivors? 
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 10 June 2017, 08:35:16 PM
Curiously, I think far more flags were probably picked up as a Regiment disintegrated than were captured in manly hand to hand combat. That seems certainly to have been the case at Gettysburg 200 years later, and I see no reason why it should not have been the case in the ECW. And it looks cool!  ;)  ;)

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: paulr on 10 June 2017, 09:13:37 PM
Seconded, if I was running away withdrawing rapidly I don't think I would stop to pick up a big heavy flag that had been dropped ;)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Womble67 on 10 June 2017, 10:40:40 PM
Very nice indeed

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: grahambeyrout on 11 June 2017, 10:05:28 AM
I do not do ECW so may be wrong about the lengths individuals would go to to save their flags in this period, but I do do Naps and ACW. In these periods, there are many accounts of individuals going to extraordinary lengths at great risk to themselves, to stop the enemy gaining the flags as trophies. Indeed we see numerous paintings of the time showing the colours of a beaten enemy being exhibited as a form of triumphalism, and individuals who either saved or captured colours were lauded and rewarded. No-one likes being shamed. Often we read that if the unit was in danger, and the situation desperate,  flags would be sent to the rear
The destroyed units stands are splendid, look splendid and the fallen colours on them have the advantage of showing what units are involved thereby making convenient tokens, but I remain unconvinced that they echo reality. Remember very few units are totally destroyed, and the stands show where significant  causalities were suffered. The flags would normally move with the survivors.
Having said that, we are  after all only playing a game, so what does it matter 
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Leman on 11 June 2017, 12:43:22 PM
Funnily enough I remain unconvinced that lead echoes flesh, but in a game I do like clear markers so that I know what is going on. In the real world I would have little idea beyond the next hedge or crest.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: d_Guy on 11 June 2017, 12:46:25 PM
One thing to consider is in the ECW period there were more flags per unit than two hundred years later, usually on the order of one per company. Even with the flags collected to the center and protected by the pikes, which was the usual practice, a much greater possibility of one or two being left behind would seem to exist.

I'd be in favor of shredding them up a bit (but not so much that you can't tell who's who).  :)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: cameronian on 11 June 2017, 03:20:27 PM
The eagle of the 62nd, taken by the British 44th at Salamanca, disappeared the night before a celebratory dinner - I think - in Apsley house. I like to think a band of ancient french veterans of the 62nd snuck in and pinched it back, interring it with the biody of their beloved colonel etc etc (yes i think there's a novel in there too).
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: d_Guy on 11 June 2017, 07:57:20 PM
 :) rather like the stone of scone

IIRC at the 200th of the Battle of Yorktown we gave back some or all of the captured colors.
(Except the one the officer wore around his waist under his clothes while he wa a prisoner for a considerable period on time.)
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Bunny on 03 July 2017, 07:41:08 AM
Great idea!  Really like it and the 'rough ground' option could be added to any rule system.

What sizes bases are you using and where did you get the rough, rounded edge bases?  I really like the irregular look for casualties.

Great work!

I also like the TTS rules.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Leman on 03 July 2017, 08:24:29 AM
Supreme Littleness do some very nice rough edged bases in various shapes and sizes.
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: mollinary on 03 July 2017, 08:34:48 AM
Quote from: Bunny on 03 July 2017, 07:41:08 AM
Great idea!  Really like it and the 'rough ground' option could be added to any rule system.

What sizes bases are you using and where did you get the rough, rounded edge bases?  I really like the irregular look for casualties.

Great work!

I also like the TTS rules.

Hi Bunny,

Glad you like the idea, and TtS. The bases are actually from Simon Miller's BigRed Bat Shop, and come in packs of 6 for just under £2.50. These are ones for skirmish units, using. 10cm grid, so they are roughly 90-95mm wide and 30-35mm deep.  Hope that helps,

Mollinary
Title: Re: ECW Destroyed Units
Post by: Bunny on 04 July 2017, 11:33:27 AM
Quote from: mollinary on 03 July 2017, 08:34:48 AM
Hi Bunny,

Glad you like the idea, and TtS. The bases are actually from Simon Miller's BigRed Bat Shop, and come in packs of 6 for just under £2.50. These are ones for skirmish units, using. 10cm grid, so they are roughly 90-95mm wide and 30-35mm deep.  Hope that helps,

Mollinary

I've just placed an order a load of the 'standard' ones 90x40 as I will be basing my English Civil War on them for Pike and Shotte/Baroque.

The skirmish bases are a good size for the casualty markers....thanks