One of our main jobs for 2017 is to revamp the existing 1859 and 1866 Italian ranges, combining the two into one larger, more comprehensive set of figures to cover all of the Independence Wars from 1849-1866. The 1866 Italians are one of the only remaining 'old' style ranges we've got now, so it's about time they got some attention. The limited 1859 codes were all done as conversions from French/Prussian figures, so we might as well replace those with some nice new sculpts while we're at it.
Below is the current range list we'll be sending to the sculptor. If this period is of interest to you, have a browse through and let us know if there's anything else you'd like to see included. Thanks to mollinary for his help putting this together as well!
1859-1866 Italians
Foot
5 x Line infantry, in tunic (1849-1859) (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter)
5 x Line infantry, in greatcoat (1859-1866) (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter)
5 x Grenadiers (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter) – As above again.
5 x Bersaglieri (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter) – Skirmish poses, running/at trail and kneeling/firing.
5 x Garibaldini (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter) – Irregular type poses, so running/at trail and standing/firing.
Cavalry
5 x Line cavalry (dragoons) in helmet with lance (2 troopers and 3 command)
7 x Cavalleggeri cavalry (2 troopers with lances, 2 troopers with sabres and 3 command) – Apparently the cavalleggeri had lances in 1859 but then moved to sabres for the rest of the period.
5 x Carabinieri cavalry (2 troopers and 3 command)
Artillery
4 x Line Artillery crew
4 x Horse Artillery crew (Voloire)
1 x 8pdr Artillery piece
1 x 16pdr Artillery piece
1 x Howitzer piece
Misc
1 x Mounted Officer
1 x Mounted General
1 x Garibaldi personality figure
1 x Casualty marker
8)
Yes please!
I will be seriously considering those.
Got the whole Italian army for the 1859 campaign, but will consider an order to be able to play Custozza as I already have the map for it!
Nice to see these range being revamped/expanded :)
Drat, and I only bought some, err, a year ago... hmm.
Well, like Le Manchou says, I'll need more for Custozza etc!
Excellent news
Looks good - I'll certainly get another corps worth!
It looks like my Future Austrians will have a worthy opponents - French and Future Italians. :)
Nice!
5 x Garibaldi (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter)
Are these Garibaldini for the Risorgimento? Will these gents be in a proper uniform or a little more irregular? Will the Italians be specifically Piedmontese or can they be used as other states? Thanks so much!
Quote from: streetgang on 13 January 2017, 05:47:08 PM
5 x Garibaldi (2 foot and officer/standard/trumpeter)
Are these Garibaldini for the Risorgimento? Will these gents be in a proper uniform or a little more irregular?
These will be a bit more irregular, probably in firing and running type poses I think.
Quote from: streetgang on 13 January 2017, 05:47:08 PM
Will the Italians be specifically Piedmontese or can they be used as other states? Thanks so much!
The final item on the list will be specifically Piedmontese troops, the earlier line figures will be fine for other states.
When I looked at trying to get it "right" whilst retaining an ability to use as many common figures across the Crimea onwards, after a fair bit of research I figured almost any variation of uniform was applicable at some point for some one, across a wide period of use. Dozens of uniform regulations and issues, virtually none of which seem to have been applied or completed in full, with huge expansions and reorganisations and absorbing of different armies, and much reuse of kit and partial issues and special cases...
With virtually nothing guaranteed to be concrete at any given point, or any concrete end or start point...
I gave up in the end, and went for "looks about right at table top distance".
I hadn't gotten onto the Garibaldis yet :D
Here's a question for any experts out there, as both us and the sculptor seem to be getting a bit confused with this one!
I was sure that what we had called 'Line' was a more generic troop type suitable for a variety of the Italian states, such as the Papal army, Modena, Parma, etc. Then we had the Piedmontese down as a separate item, based on images that showed a specific troop type/uniform. But the problem is that we're finding it difficult to find any images of the 'generic' troops, most of the reference material we've got keeps referring to the Piedmont-Sardinia troops as being the core of the army. So, the question is, is there no such thing as a generic 'Line' soldier and can that item be dropped from the list?
The sculptor's spent most of today searching for info on this, but we've hit a bit of a brick wall.
Here's a load of pictures from the 19th C. Facebook group, in case anyone is interested:
Bersaglieri
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15977296_1273047446109950_7034615851016658208_n.jpg?oh=d12ed69cd2747a6fc872569f5b270a9d&oe=59095D8E
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16105911_1273047422776619_9193898046830345482_n.jpg?oh=7ad0dab683a40f78997fefaaae45c8eb&oe=59035F8B
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16142533_1273047519443276_8011398148113805401_n.jpg?oh=f259508b18534f39beda69f2790c3148&oe=59124F5A
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16114062_1273047539443274_9078362660223887163_n.jpg?oh=4fd532ca9b1f4dfa728ea0dcd2fd8fb5&oe=5918BE72
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16174593_1273047549443273_5694848942692032125_n.jpg?oh=d8deaac216292d260b87e6040986c266&oe=59122457
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16105585_1273047619443266_6242543078160250202_n.jpg?oh=9450e95d7fcdaa8c6bc24c8a67a0ce9e&oe=5915646F
Garabaldini
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/15965416_1271745946240100_7303258738722331600_n.jpg?oh=16ae28a5bb02813ad9a5510b7e80c827&oe=5904DF0F
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965305_1264366793644682_6019586754479185276_n.jpg?oh=ae559e0033c6a57d778d36a79e994fd4&oe=5912E734
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/85/0b/e8/850be84fe37d607ca1c5f020c27889e2.jpg
Piedmontese
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/15895214_1266143486800346_2332084759571480815_n.jpg?oh=db5c98516a00b9109deff8172f300a6b&oe=5907070F
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16143376_1808658289160436_5058745991146115714_n.jpg?oh=6f873ed8065af6218525061854e2cead&oe=59241E33
Carabinieri
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16114776_1273049292776432_927305891019687443_n.jpg?oh=685812d8a73c80bc05fb622c33101ebe&oe=590C7E97
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16114364_1273049309443097_7860717932258180350_n.jpg?oh=cdbb556717141bd8261164e73f99c5e8&oe=591D9240
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16142506_1273049319443096_4085292845554677486_n.jpg?oh=c9d637692e427cc1c38b454154b1a348&oe=5922A531
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16002786_1273049349443093_5449928362242939168_n.jpg?oh=9ac52480f9c1fa056817b176647ba077&oe=59192449
Grenadiers
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15941402_1789577637735168_2046283099165732213_n.jpg?oh=1e6f21a2e401f68dd333fb05fd03b2e6&oe=591C2192
Artillerymen
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/77/2e/97/772e97a9c51c54c3605f3159ebb9cc95.jpg
Senior Officers
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/99/f0/96/99f096b735d9342f928be9d46f69b51f.jpg
Re-Enactors with a variety of uniforms on
https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15940738_1264749090273119_5594716995270122000_n.jpg?oh=2eff2279faa25cee6f295838b9aac60f&oe=5924A8ED
Try google-ing images for the "Battle of San Martino" This is the Italian bit of Solferino. There are some pants images but also some really nice ones
Alan
As far as I'm aware, in 1859 the Modena line infantry wore a pickelhaub.
Right - this might help!
http://www.marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/SardinianInfUnif.html
The main thing I took from this (and other things I found) is that everything changes in some minor-ish way every few years, but nothing much ever gets finished or implemented or rolled out in full, and that any time they might have got a handle on consistency there was a massive expansion of the army and a load of extra states absorbed thus bringing a load of almost but not quite the same gear to be dealt with...
And I'm booking marking that site, as it just took me an hour to find again...
Quote from: Leman on 23 January 2017, 07:05:57 PM
As far as I'm aware, in 1859 the Modena line infantry wore a pickelhaub.
According to? The only illustrations I have seen, Knotel, show a shako of the Austrian type.
Mollinary
Yes indeed. I checked in Kannik (Blandford) and it's Parma with the pickelhaub.
Here the reenachtors site for the Modena regiment (1816-1863), You could ask them everything.
http://www.battaglioneestense.it/
I'll wait some pictures of the sculpted minis.
Stefano
I have got some more information from an Italian customer which seems to reinforce that 'Line' infantry are exactly the same as 'Piedmontese' infantry, that they are one and the same? This does make me wonder why we were getting requests for Piedmontese foot when we already had the Italian 'line' in the old/current range...
Quote from: abikapi2 on 23 January 2017, 08:13:29 PM
Here the reenachtors site for the Modena regiment (1816-1863), You could ask them everything.
http://www.battaglioneestense.it/
I'll wait some pictures of the sculpted minis.
Thanks for the link/pictures, we will need to get our information correct or the sculptor won't start any figures!
There's probably a lot of confusion, combined with just enough differences between "actual" Piedmont-Sardian uniforms or other separate states to "Italian" uniforms from Crimea to 1859 to 1866+, that from the website piccies you can't quite be sure if what's down as "line" is going to quite work for any given one of those.
I looked at it, looked at the differences and figured I could live with the mix of existing figures and a bit of paint conversions at the worst ;)
I've had a read through all the info on that site and I'm not much clearer! The page is headed 'Sardinian Infantry' and apart from one mention of Piedmont on the first line, they refer to them as Sardinian all the way through the text. My Italian customer has mentioned that Italian line infantry are referred to as Fanteria de Linea which might help with some images.
A little more "Austrian style" for Modena officiers...
http://www.battaglioneestense.it/ufficiali/index.html
and troops
http://www.battaglioneestense.it/umbertide/index.htm
Piedmontese officiers and troops...
http://www.webalice.it/nbruni1/Gaeta_1861.html
http://www.brigantaggio.net/Brigantaggio/Storia/Esercito-LeggePica.htm
Stefano
That's because they're the same thing :)
The kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia, as ruled by Victor-Emmanuel II, noble allies of the French, illustrious drivers of Italian unification, heroic opposers of the Austrians. As Vic-E connived his way to king of all Italy they add chunks of the other Italian states to their kingdom (and lose a few bits to the French in return for them doing the heavy lifting).
They're opposed by both the Austrians and very other Italian kingdom, principality and state, who mostly get folded into the growing "Kingdom of Italy" more or less willingly, by Garibaldi, "big power fiat" or direct action.
This makes "Italian line infantry" something of a misnomer, for much of the period, as depending on author and shorthand and exact point that might mean Piedmont-Sardinian, Neopolitan, Papal or other separate state, the remnants of such within the growing Kingdom of Italy (as driven by the Piedmontese who formed the core of the army), or actual newly raised units of the Kingdom of Italy as it acquired bits and boa of territory.
The uniforms are all kind of similar with minor differences and flavours from outside allies depending on then taste of the sub-state and attempts to homogenise them!
ANd that's the short, easy and simple answer that others might well be clutching their chests and fuming over my hideous bias and compression of an insanely interesting and complex period :D
Quote from: toxicpixie on 23 January 2017, 11:29:24 PM
That's because they're the same thing :)
Yeah, that seems to be the way it's going! Not too bad for us as we can knock a few sculpts off the list, but no doubt we'll get asked about it when the range is released.
For anyone wishing a crash course on the 2nd War of Italian Unification (the Risorgimento), have a read at Osprey's Solferino 1859 .... or Wikipedia!
(Leon? :P )
p.s. Question to the expert enthusiasts of the period: The Duchy of Modena appears to have been a small independent state ruled by a pro-Austrian family. According to the battaglioneestense.it website above, it had its own small army of around 3,600 organised in one regiment plus some miscellaneous types. After Magenta, the Duke and his army retreated into Austria (or with the Austrians? - I don't speak Italian). Is this the same unit as IR Herzog von Modena Nr.32 which was in Brigade Koller, 2nd Division, V Corps?
The Continental Wars Society has produced lots of info on the forces in C19th Italy over the life of the publication of its journal, The Foreign Correspondent. Perhaps a friendly line dropped to Ralph Weaver might clear up some of the niggling questions.
I think we've just about got it sorted now after a couple of days of phone calls with the sculptor! I've updated the list at the top of the thread as well.
Any idea of the timing for this project?
Thank You
Stefano
Quote from: abikapi2 on 08 February 2017, 07:06:34 PM
Any idea of the timing for this project?
The first batch of sculpts arrived this week, so I will get some photos taken of those. There should be 3-4 months work in total and then we can start moulding them. Estimated release would be around August I'd think.
Next birthday sorted then. :)
Great! ;)
Stefano