Poll
Question:
Those shields need paint, what colour should it be?
Option 1: Red. All Romans are red, even if they never were, coz red is cool!
votes: 8
Option 2: Blue. You play too much Total War Rome and Scipii are blue.
votes: 0
Option 3: Green. They are the greenest troops, it will help identify them.
votes: 4
Option 4: White.
votes: 1
Option 5: Other (please state and why)
votes: 4
Option 6: Transfer (please state from whom)
votes: 1
Hello hive mind!
7 days.
What colour to do Hastatii shields?
Go on, you know you want too...
Do I keep them a separate colour to the Principes and Triarii, or do I be ultra annoying and have the entire army in the same colours?
All input received (I might even be grateful for some)! ;D
Other. Paint each legion with a separate colour.
Would you prefer that people have some knowledge of what you are talking about before they vote? :)
Nah, you f they know, they'll answer...
For the rest, their is google! ;)
I'll only put in my opinion that it's inconceivable that they would have had undecorated shields, given later practice and the overwhelming tendency in the contemporary Mediterranean world to paint designs on them.
Vegetius wrote:
"Lest the soldiers in the confusion of battle should be separated from their comrades, every cohort had its shields painted in a manner peculiar to itself. The name of each soldier was also written on his shield, together with the number of the cohort and century to which he belonged."
The Dura Europos shield is the closest we have to a complete real legionary shield. Opinion seems to be that the reconstruction of the damaged original and it's paintwork are as good as we're likely to get for Imperial legions.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/presspublisher-do/upload/2697/duraeuropos6.jpg)
The winged lightning bolts beloved of film, TV and figure manufacturers are no more likely than lions, boars and the like as emblems.
So the answer is we don't know anything about half of what went on in the Roman army and we can't be sure about the other half so pick a colour scheme you like and go for it. :)
Giving what I've learned so far and if I were actually doing this period, I might select chrome on black. I always liked my Dad's 1949 Plymouth sedan! But in the end gold on red like the movies.
(Did not actually vote - don't want to skew the data)
Other: purely because a mate of mine has done a mix of deep red shields and off white shields in a unit which looks really effective when you see them all on the table.
Quote from: d_Guy on 09 December 2016, 04:44:00 AM
(Did not actually vote - don't want to skew the data)
Skew away my friend!
There is a certain attraction to having the three ranks red, white and green, thus distinguishing the three parts of the legion and also tipping a hat to the Italian flag.
I have always understood that the distinctive Italian national battlefield flag was pure white?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 09 December 2016, 07:57:53 AM
I have always understood that the distinctive Italian national battlefield flag was pure white?
No that's the Frogs, in the 18th century. White field with heraldic silver (ie White) cross.
As to shields, look to Baggage Train or Veni Vedi Vicie (SP)
IanS
Lyon passant argent in chief on a field argent; in fesse, three bezants argent.
Motto: Je me rends, moi!
Orange. Up Pompey!
Slightly early, mind.
Up Proto-Pompey!
In for me, in for me, you've all got it in for me!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 09 December 2016, 08:39:06 AM
Lyon passant argent in chief on a field argent; in fesse, three bezants argent.
Motto: Je me rends, moi!
Lion passing money in butterfly, three silver bezants. Motto: I surrender!
Had to google Bezant!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezant
You 'ave studied French in England, no?
Quote from: mad lemmey on 09 December 2016, 11:50:36 AM
Had to google Bezant!
Wasn't he the goalkeeper for Wimbledon in 1988 (?), when they beat Liverpool in the cup final ?
Cheers - Losing it, of Wales.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 09 December 2016, 08:39:06 AM
Lyon passant argent in chief on a field argent; in fesse, three bezants argent.
Motto: Je me rends, moi!
Not much on heraldry but isn't this supporting my desire for a silver/black motif?
Hillbilly French: "I myself tear things up"
'ow on earth did zey beat you, mon empereur?
Adding a green purely because that's the base colour I used for my legion.
I'm not sure what the point of this post is. I've seen illustrations of Polybian shields in at least red, blue, green, yellow, and white, both with and without motif. Seems to me you can do pretty much what you like.
Second that, anything and any way you please.
A few random options to get you started:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rzw4FbnnXjE/Vb8Zlq-coBI/AAAAAAAAIAI/0sThUYttNtE/s1600/S8302915.JPG)(http://i.picpar.com/cy0.jpg)(http://i.picpar.com/UKEb.jpg)(http://i.picpar.com/SKEb.jpg)(http://www.warpaintfigures.com/wp-content/gallery/28mm-republican-roman-army-st-legion/P1000655.JPG)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cf/3c/1a/cf3c1a744bad2c42c45ac311f580a70e.jpg)
Quote from: Leman on 09 December 2016, 10:10:52 PM
I'm not sure what the point of this post is. I've seen illustrations of Polybian shields in at least red, blue, green, yellow, and white, both with and without motif. Seems to me you can do pretty much what you like.
Yes, but what would you lot all like?
Quote from: Leman on 09 December 2016, 10:10:52 PM
I'm not sure what the point of this post is...
To quote Larry Leadhead
QuoteIt wouldn't be a hobby if there has to be a reason!
QuoteThe Dura Europos shield is the closest we have to a complete real legionary shield. Opinion seems to be that the reconstruction of the damaged original and it's paintwork are as good as we're likely to get for Imperial legions.
Except we're not talking about Imperial shields so this is pretty irrelevant - the only reference I'm aware of is Polybius' comment that a legio covered/hid its shields so as to be not recognised which implies some form of recognisable shield identity.
Ithoriel's images are probably as good as anything, when armour was still personal then individual colours and emblems are likely, once things shifted to state provision then infirmity will appear if only because product is bought in bulk for the same merchants / fabricators.
Persoanlly I wouldn't paint hastate shields a different colour to their principes and hastate - if they were colour coded I think it would be by legio or cohors so all of them would be the same. No evidence at all but hastati in one colour and principes in another is all wrong :)
if pushed I'd vote white (and did)
One option might be to go with a predominate shield colour for each legion's hastate, principes and triarii.
For example Legion I hastate - yellow, principes - red and triarii - brown, Legion II hastate - white, principes - green and triarii - blue.
Then add some random coloured shields in each unit, as Zippee says "when armour was still personal then individual colours and emblems are likely"
Three way tie at the moment, last 24 hours; oh hive mind!
Must be a new vote in, since you last posted, Will.
Red's in front by a short head, as they come to the final furlong.
Cheers - Phil
Red!
Red is the Gods colour, they will favour you!
Quote from: Matt J on 14 December 2016, 12:38:21 PM
Red!
Red is the Gods colour, they will favour you!
Pinting your shield in the gods colour is hubris - they will punish you
Quote from: Zippee on 14 December 2016, 01:16:23 PM
Pinting your shield in the gods colour is hubris - they will punish you
How doo you drink a shield ???
Cut it into small strips, and pretend you're a sword-swallower ?
(No one is to put anything remotely smutty after this.....Or I'll use the delete button.) :P
Cheers - Phil
Damn - Phil just deleted my last post in this thread ...
IanS ;)
How about pink?
That fits, right?
Quote from: ianrs54 on 14 December 2016, 03:49:04 PM
Damn - Phil just deleted my last post in this thread ...
IanS ;)
Oooooh......I
never...You fibber.....Just to get me into trouble.
(I liked that, Ian. ;D ;D ;D ;D......Good one !)
Cheers - Phil
Couldn't resist !
Quote from: Ithoriel on 09 December 2016, 01:47:26 AM
Vegetius wrote:
"Lest the soldiers in the confusion of battle should be separated from their comrades, every cohort had its shields painted in a manner peculiar to itself. The name of each soldier was also written on his shield, together with the number of the cohort and century to which he belonged."
I voted other, as I go with Ithoriel (and Vegetius). I find the thought that they would not use such an obvious way to designate units as highly unlikely. It also adds to the units morale.
I would designate each troop type , principes ,triari and hastate a different shield colour.
THEN:-
1 Paint each troop type the same shade of the chosen colour and add a different coloured/type emblem for each legion - Use VVV transfers
2 Paint each legion a different shade of the designated colour for that troop type.
3 A combination of both of the above
I look forward to seeing your 10 mm legionary shields painted as stated by Vegetius with their name, Cohort and Century on the shield
Never expected this thread to reach three pages! :D
Thanks chaps
Red ones go faster...
http://allthetropes.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Ones_Go_Faster (http://allthetropes.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Ones_Go_Faster)
All The Tropes - what an interesting place - thanks, Luddite.
I've gone for red, with a proportion in white and also some in yellow.
Just a thought: a triarius would have started life as an hastatus, then become a princeps....Shields were private property; would they have been repainted when their owners transferred?
Legionaries of the period were indeed expected to provide their own weapons and armour but it seems likely that the state provided these which were then paid for through deductions from pay as food, clothing and other equipment was.
A repaint of a shield wouldn't be a difficult or time consuming activity. Shields must have been replaced or repaired fairly regularly I'd have thought.
The truth is we don't know for sure. Hence my vote for paint it whatever colour you fancy!
I find myself remembering the story of the legionary given a snide comment by his general for having an ornate and oversized shield. That sounds like an item that didn't pass through government channels.
There isn't a single moment we can point to when equipment issue transferred, it likely began as all individual (hence the differences in class armour ratings, etc due to income) then ether consuls or 'the state' would issue for a campaign (probably by funding manufacture and resell through their agents for profit) thus generating apparent uniformity and eventually state issue or supply became the norm as size and permanency of units became usual (by this time the difference between HC&T had diminished to nomenclature only and legios fought in cohors).
Ii still have great difficulty imaging that hastate - principes and trariii of the same legio would have different colour shields for each line. Ether a mix of random privately purchased and painted or 'state' supplied which would be by legio - so all (more or less) one colour. We have some evidence suggesting that s possible, none whatsoever for each line being distinguishable by shield colour (and Polybius goes into quite a bit of difference about the differences between classes - if shield colour was one I think he's have mentioned it)
And remarked upon possibly BECAUSE of that?
Quote from: toxicpixie on 18 December 2016, 09:38:20 AM
And remarked upon possibly BECAUSE of that?
Sorry, too laconic - who remarked on what because why?
Decided the principes will have an even more substantial majority of red shields in this legion, whilst the Triarii will be all red.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 18 December 2016, 09:38:20 AM
And remarked upon possibly BECAUSE of that?
Quote from: Zippee on 18 December 2016, 08:08:14 PM
Sorry, too laconic - who remarked on what because why?
I'm assuming this refers to
Quote from: FierceKitty on 18 December 2016, 05:04:00 AM
I find myself remembering the story of the legionary given a snide comment by his general for having an ornate and oversized shield. That sounds like an item that didn't pass through government channels.
and the possibility that the general was remarking on a shield unusual in having been sourced outwith normal procurement channels.
Exactly that, ithorial. Think Zippies comment must have slid in as I posted?
Quote from: toxicpixie on 18 December 2016, 10:30:05 PM
Exactly that, ithorial. Think Zippies comment must have slid in as I posted?
Ah right - obscurity enhanced by starting page 4 no doubt :D
Snide remark made probably because it meant the lout hadn't purchased his shield from the prescribed factor who just happened to be a client of said general.
Haha, yes - right on both counts, I suspect.