What is the most over-rated wargames period? I'm torn between Napoleonic and twentieth century, but interested in what other gamers think gets too large a slice of the cake.
Come to think of it, twentieth century; the gamers who hog half the available tables to play games that all look the same anyway.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 October 2010, 01:24:14 PM
What is the most over-rated wargames period?
I don't understand how a
period can be over-rated. A ruleset or a particular model brand can be over-rated because it doesn't meet certain general requirements. Even a scale such as 28mm or 2mm can be over-rated in cartain ways depending on one's preference (impractical in the first instance, lack of detail in the second).
But a historical period? :-\
Cheers,
Aart
I think Fierce is refering to periods that get too much Pendraken design love at the expense of other (more interesting) periods.
Gordon
WW2, totaly overrated, a second rate war war all the way, cowardly soldiers using guns with magazins, hell they even use automatic weapons, totaly unsporty
Anybody using guns with more then 1 bullet in it, should be disqualified and left of the bench for the rest of the war.
Chariot wars, Napolionics & ACW send me to sleep
I wasn't just commenting on Pendraken, actually. Some periods are just grotequely over-represented and overplayed, out of all proportion to their merits or historical importance.
I am actually pleased that our hosts are doing so much SYW stuff. No other war has shaped our world as much.
Two "actually"s in one post. I must step up my medication.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 October 2010, 03:57:04 PM
Two "actually"s in one post. I must step up my medication.
It's fine - they avoided placing themselves in the same sentence ;)
It's a good question...I think I'd have to go with zombies :d - or Early Imperial Romans vs the Barbarian hordes...
Ancients - its just blokes with pointy sticks...
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 October 2010, 03:54:54 PM
Some periods are just grotequely over-represented and overplayed, out of all proportion to their merits or historical importance.
Aha!!
Now i can comment. I was struggling as there were no frames of reference to make an assessment.
OK, first up, i'll defend the two periods knocked off.
NapoleonicsThis period is really THE wargaming period - oddly, despite decades at the table, a period i've never really played. However, i don't think its overrated or overepresented. It defines wargaming, providing grand tactical battles, combined arms operation (infantry/cavalry/artillery).
The merits and historical importance are difficult to argue against.
WWIIAgain, this is a defining period, advancing the combined arms and tactical capacity into the modern way of war. Very popular and again i'd suggest difficult to see it as overrated or overrepresented.
The merits and historical importance are difficult to argue against.
I think i'll ave to veer off on a tangent here and say that i think two 'periods' are good candidates;
Fantasy and Science Fiction gaming.
Both are seriously overrated having very little historic value (obviously), and often very little merit. They are also massively overrepresented - undeniably so given that the only wargames company to maintain an international high street presence specialises in fantasy/sci fi...
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 October 2010, 03:54:54 PM
[...] out of all proportion to their merits or historical importance.
I think this explains why members find it hard to take your question serious. The historical importance of Napoleonic and WII periods overrated? That's like saying rockets are overrated as a means of space travel.
You complain a lot that your fav periods or genres are underrepresented in today's model ranges. I can understand that. But I think the proper way to change this is to make people enthusiastic about your favs, not to constantly question or even bash other peoples' preferences.
Cheers,
Aart
REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY
Falklands - massively over-rated :D ;) :) ;D :D ;) :) 8) 8)
Does this add any votes to that period getting done?
People play games about the periods they know about. And which periods get the good movies and TV shows?
Now, I am not sure that Napoleonics or WWII are over-represented in terms of their importance in shaping their importance in shaping the modern worlds. If, that is, you insist on gaming wars. If games were played in proportion to the historic importance of what they represent, games that represented social systems, politics, economics, and industrial development would be all the rage -- most wars only express the final results of those processes anyway.
The accepted wisdom among the cognoscenti is that rockets ARE over-rated as a means of space travel. They hardy get us out of our front door. And even there the "space elevator" idea has been an obvious improvement at a conceptual level for decades.
Rockets as a means of breaking up formations of attacking Japanese pikemen are another matter, of course.
Quote from: lentulus on 09 October 2010, 12:42:00 AM
People play games about the periods they know about. And which periods get the good movies and TV shows?
That's kinda the point I'm making. It's like a mediocre actor like Roger Moore playing James Bond with no talent or charisma for more movies than several far better candidates just becaue he was familiar and had been hyped a lot.
I dont understand SCW period and the overhelming engagement of Pendraken crew in it. (Although I imagine fighting communists can be funny ;) )
When I see so brilliant new SCW figs released, I cry ...that they are not new SYW stuff :)
Quote from: FierceKitty on 09 October 2010, 06:02:53 AM
The accepted wisdom among the cognoscenti is that rockets ARE over-rated as a means of space travel.
Only among the "cognoscenti" of sci-fi games. Games which are neither here nor there when it comes to historical importance. Personal preferences do not speak to historical importance anyway. The point being that people play games that fire their imagination. You want to change their preferences? Appeal to imagination, not to snobbery.
Cheers,
Aart
Those for whom combat begins and ends with Waterloo and Stalingrad may not have very active imaginations to appeal to. Of course, I say this as one arraigned, judged, and convicted of snobbery.
The popularity of periods often reflects their importance, e.g. Napoleonics and WWII, but they also have to have decent sources available in English (for anglophones at least). They have to present something "gameable" some wars aren't best suited to this; WWI for example (not that its ungameable, its not as dynamic as its sequel). Interesting armies help, as do those with at least a chance of winning.
I myself like the slightly more obscure side of things, or less familiar spins on mainstream stuff. I've always been into LoA, but that's only really become more noticed in the last few years.
Sometimes I am baffled by a lack of interest in facinating periods. Chinese history is a great big goldmine of wargaming stuff, yet we only tend to skim it in the West (lack of reading material in English is probably the culprit). I hope its a bit like chinese cinema; ten or fifteen years ago it was only really noticed by enthusiasts, now they produce some great epics which hit the main ciinemas here.
Almost totally down to the scarce books on the subject is the lack of interest in the Imjin war, with all the Samurai armies there are out there, you'd think people would be clamouring for opponents that weren't other samurai.
Desperate seiges, Korean monks, multi- rocket launchers, chinese artillery, turttle ships; what's not to like?!
Quote from: clibinarium on 10 October 2010, 11:54:19 AM
The popularity of periods often reflects their importance, e.g. Napoleonics and WWII, but they also have to have decent sources available in English (for anglophones at least). They have to present something "gameable" some wars aren't best suited to this; WWI for example (not that its ungameable, its not as dynamic as its sequel). Interesting armies help, as do those with at least a chance of winning.
I myself like the slightly more obscure side of things, or less familiar spins on mainstream stuff. I've always been into LoA, but that's only really become more noticed in the last few years.
Sometimes I am baffled by a lack of interest in facinating periods. Chinese history is a great big goldmine of wargaming stuff, yet we only tend to skim it in the West (lack of reading material in English is probably the culprit). I hope its a bit like chinese cinema; ten or fifteen years ago it was only really noticed by enthusiasts, now they produce some great epics which hit the main ciinemas here.
Almost totally down to the scarce books on the subject is the lack of interest in the Imjin war, with all the Samurai armies there are out there, you'd think people would be clamouring for opponents that weren't other samurai.
Desperate seiges, Korean monks, multi- rocket launchers, chinese artillery, turttle ships; what's not to like?!
Now there's a post that's bound to pique peoples interest. Maybe the Ancient Chinese wars will become more popular when computer game developers discover them as a source of plots and eye candy. I have been an active player of the Total War computer games for many years, starting with Shogun Total War, a brilliant game by the standard of 1998. I believe Shogun TW played an important role in popularising samurai culture and history. TW fans have been clamouring ever since for a China Total War game. Let's hope it happens. I will probably never play it (or Chinese tabletop wargames) but I can see why it fascinates people.
Cheers,
Aart
Not just ancient, though that's full of fun. But medieval Chinese armies are important too, and the pike and shot era armies are among the most rewarding of all.
Actually, I'm doing a 10mm Ming army as we speak, but with a sad shortage of Pendraken figures in the ranks. I have been able to incorporate only a handful of crusades-era Turkish types and some ancient archers in sun hats, who convert obligingly enough too. I'd have used lots of Pendraken figures if they'd been available.
But some of us play anything - well almost. My last few games have been WOW WWI - Albatros blown up twice, 4 Modern 1/300 games (at Derby), and a shed load of Warmaster/Warmaster Ancient games.
JUst bought FOG-R, have all the stuff for FOG.
Paintingwise, well in the last 6 months I've done an Arab, Sassinid, and started on Turkish and Polish Ren (This will double as Kislev), the Helis for most of a Russian Airmobile, with all the infantry, + btns of Arab and NATO stuff - all for someone else, and a Hunic with Indian allies again for a third party.
So your statement that msot of us just play 18th and 20th century warfare is just wrong.
IanS
Like Zbigniew I don't understand the popularity of the Spanish Civil War amongst gamers. In fact most Civil War periods seem to be gamed disproportionately. I can explain this with the ACW & ECW as most of the figure manufacturers hail from those nations so in their day was taught in history class if not today.
Quote from: NTM on 11 October 2010, 08:10:27 AM
Like Zbigniew I don't understand the popularity of the Spanish Civil War amongst gamers.
Have you ever asked them? They won't bite, you know. I've known a few and the reasons they give are that they love some of the more exotic or irregular units, the creaky early armoured vehicles, the landscape - oh, and let's not forget they love Spain, a major holiday destination for three European generations now. Things can be as simple as that. I know lovers of the Franco-Prussian war who are in it just because they love the uniforms of the zouaves, period.
I certainly don't play my fav periods out of some arcane historical interest. I adore Napoleonic uniforms. I am fascinated by the superiority of German WWII armour in combination with the profound evil they represented. Historical importance my foot. I am a historian by training, I have a history library of 4000 titles. I don't need wargames to fill in the details of a certain period - pleease...
I play wargames because I love a table full of colourful stuff lovingly put together by friends or acquaintances, good company. Basically I love it because it is so useless, it's a marvellous 'waste of time' from almost any (financial, political, economic, scientific) viewpoint except the obvious: I'm having a great afternoon for no practical reason at all and with no practical consequences whatsoever.
If there is one thing I don't understand, it's why people take their wargaming so damned seriously sometimes. :!!
Cheers,
Aart
That's a nice post there Aart - like it lots =D> 8)
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 11 October 2010, 01:48:06 PM
Have you ever asked them?
No because if I do they might give me some long boring explaination as to why ;)
I'm not knocking it was just throwing something into the hat based on the original question. I don't feel that the periods I game or rule systems I use are in some way more worthy than any others. I game beqause I enjoy it, if not I would just post on TMP or Frothers all day.
Quote from: NTM on 11 October 2010, 03:26:25 PM
I game beqause I enjoy it, if not I would just post on TMP or Frothers all day.
=O
Cheers,
Aart
I think Warhammer Fantasy is overrated by GW, whereas Warmaster is vastly underated by GW. But then the pimply teens need something like Warham&eggs to allow their still forming brains to function at the same time as rolling dice.
I'm really enjoying turning into a grumpy old wargamer, never had so much fun. No need to be polite anymore.
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 11 October 2010, 01:48:06 PM
Have you ever asked them? They won't bite, you know. I've known a few and the reasons they give are that they love some of the more exotic or irregular units, the creaky early armoured vehicles, the landscape - oh, and let's not forget they love Spain, a major holiday destination for three European generations now. Things can be as simple as that. I know lovers of the Franco-Prussian war who are in it just because they love the uniforms of the zouaves, period.
I certainly don't play my fav periods out of some arcane historical interest. I adore Napoleonic uniforms. I am fascinated by the superiority of German WWII armour in combination with the profound evil they represented. Historical importance my foot. I am a historian by training, I have a history library of 4000 titles. I don't need wargames to fill in the details of a certain period - pleease...
I play wargames because I love a table full of colourful stuff lovingly put together by friends or acquaintances, good company. Basically I love it because it is so useless, it's a marvellous 'waste of time' from almost any (financial, political, economic, scientific) viewpoint except the obvious: I'm having a great afternoon for no practical reason at all and with no practical consequences whatsoever.
If there is one thing I don't understand, it's why people take their wargaming so damned seriously sometimes. :!!
Cheers,
Aart
Its misunderstanding. It is not that I dont notice one particular Mr Hemingway's novel influence in SCW interest. I guess pretty female Spaniard soldiers have also something to do with it. :)
I am not a bit "serious" about wargaming or bloody history. Far from it. If I was serious about wargaming I wouldnt be able to play war being a declared pacifist ;)
I am just curious if SCW is really so popular among players that it deserves such Pendraken interest.
Quote from: Zbigniew on 13 October 2010, 06:45:54 AM
I am just curious if SCW is really so popular among players that it deserves such Pendraken interest.
If Nik Harwood is interested it deserves Pendraken's attention :D
I think Art put it very well.
I have played Ancients, Naploeonics, ACW, WW2 Eastern Front, Naval games, Wings of War, Seven years War, Franco=Prussian, Austro-Prussian, Franco-Austrain and Marlburian. There may be more.
I think enjoyed them all to a greater or lesser degree. My age and the depth of my pocket now restrict me to one or two of those, not as a result of any feeling that these are better than the others.
I think another point is that we are influenced by manufacturers and the wargaming press. New rules often sway us to different periods; new figure ranges have the same effect; articles in the wargame press do the same. I think this can lead to unbalanced coverage of periods creating the feeling that some are overrated. For example, Wargames Illustrated in recent months could have been sub-titled 'Flames of War Illustrated'. That by the way is not a dig at FoW gamers, just the point that for non-FoW gamers the magazine has not contained a great deal of things to interest us (me).
I shall continue to enjoy my wargaming into my dotage, whatever periods I may play.
Chad
Yes - well - ahem, I went to Bovington tank museum show this year, and all you could see was WW2 20mm. Now I aint complainin, but it is nice to see a bit of colour ont table, variety spice of..etc etc, so next year Im thinking about putting on a 10mm Naps game ( boring I know). It may tease a few unclean into the 10mm dream - and a different period.
Our hobby does have its fashions though, currently WW2 in various scales.
Live and let live, and hey just as long as there are spotters out there playing with toy soldiers - keeping the industry going - Im not bothered what they play :D
God save the Queen
17-21l :-bd
Quote from: NTM on 13 October 2010, 07:38:21 AM
If Nik Harwood is interested it deserves Pendraken's attention :D
=O <:-P 8-} =O
I should note here that I did my SCW - in readiness for pics for inclusion in BKCII - using codes from an array of ranges as this was before the release of the new SCW loveliness. My decision to do SCW for those pics was taken in consultation with Pete Jones [BKC author] as it was a period which we felt [feel] was a bit neglected & overlooked in favour of WW2 [and certain theatres within that conflict]...we thought it would be nice to have something a bit different...
...so maybe you should blame us, trendsetting, globetrotting metrosexual icons of wargaming, we are :P 8-} :D
Quote from: nikharwood on 13 October 2010, 07:34:58 PM
=O <:-P 8-} =O
Laugh all you want, bubba, but you're quite a force on this board. m/
Cheers,
Aart
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 13 October 2010, 07:38:31 PM
Laugh all you want, bubba, but you're quite a force on this board. m/
Cheers,
Aart
Thank you...bit worried about the 'bubba' though - tends to conjure up images of a large individual in an American prison who smells vaguely (& disturbingly) of pepperoni pizza ;) ;D :o
And is that not a fitting description? ;)
No Forbes. No.
Not...yet... ;) :)
This is Bubba:
(http://www.jewcy.com/files/images/Prison.mid-size.jpg)
And this is me:
(http://pics.hi5.com/userpics/561/288/288891561.img.small.jpg)
:)
Compare & contrast...
Are you the one getting the shampoo? ;)
No...thank feck ;) ;D =O
Quote from: Zbigniew on 13 October 2010, 06:45:54 AM
I am just curious if SCW is really so popular among players that it deserves such Pendraken interest.
It has been surprisingly well received, and is selling very well. If people hadn't been as interested, we probably wouldn't have expanded it this far. Probably less surprisingly is the amount of Spanish gamers who have been getting into it.
Quote from: Leon on 13 October 2010, 11:54:43 PM
It has been surprisingly well received, and is selling very well. If people hadn't been as interested, we probably wouldn't have expanded it this far. Probably less surprisingly is the amount of Spanish gamers who have been getting into it.
I see.
I must say I am impressed by the quality and subtlety of SCW figs design. Isnt the sculptor the same who made SYW range? You lucky SCW lovers! :)
Quote from: Zbigniew on 14 October 2010, 06:31:20 AM
I see.
I must say I am impressed by the quality and subtlety of SCW figs design. Isnt the sculptor the same who made SYW range? You lucky SCW lovers! :)
Yep. He did the SYW/WSS ranges, plus the remodelled FPW, the Pacific WWII stuff, the SCW, and is currently working on the Napoleonics and also the Schleswig Holstein range. We'll be seeing him on Sunday at SELWG.
Quote from: Leon on 14 October 2010, 02:11:45 PM
We'll be seeing him on Sunday at SELWG.
Has he got time for that you are obviously not working him hard enough ;)
Quote from: NTM on 14 October 2010, 02:16:42 PM
Has he got time for that you are obviously not working him hard enough ;)
Don't worry, we'll tie him down for a couple of hours and give him the Request Lists...
I always wondered about the amount of Zulu miniatures available. A lot of people must be playing that. On the other hand, one can never have enough amazones.
Never played Napoleonics, unless Franco-Prussian war counts, and even then only one game of that? Just not into the whole uniform porn thing that most players seem to fetishize.
Ancients, played a few games in my time, but missing the things that interest me, namely vehicles and guns.
WW1 surprisingly interesting period, especially now with the Mud & Blood rules.
SCW just has all the best elements of WW2 without the uber German thing going for it. I quite like the whole field expedient AFV idea.
This is probably why I also like AK47 African and Middle East wars with the proliferation of "technicals", which are just so fascinating.
Vietnam for the helicopters and riverine warfare, just plain cool.
Science Fiction Battletech for its illogical, but totally cool, if totally bat-sh*t cray, giant stompy robots, which is an ideal background for those of us who like to hide historical battles using SF.
Not into Fantasy gaming, played in the past, but too much like ancients as a period.