Firstly this post is not about any particular show or a criticism of any show, organiser or trader, simply my personal observation and thoughts. In writing this I have had my own ideas and beliefs about shows challenged, and certainly regarding entrance fees changed. I do not claim to know the answers, merely have some suggestions that may or may not be practical. Those more experienced than I with shows are free to correct my thoughts or share their own.
The issue with numbers at a show seems to be an on-going problem across most if not all of the shows. I think it is down to the ability to shop online whenever you want. None of the send a ssae (stamped self addressed envelope), wait two weeks for it to arrive to see if they have a sufficient range of figures in the period /army you want. Then plan your purchases and wait to attend the next show.
Why we should spend our money at shows
Several well-known traders have decided that shows are not worth attending. This is because either they do not cover the costs involved with sales from the show and/or the value of production lost due to attending the show.
We know from previous posts the amount of expense and additional work required of a trader to attend a show. (not to mention loss of production) I know attending a show is a good form of advertising , but it can be a very expensive form of advertising. If a trader does not get enough return from a show (financial or otherwise) he will not attend. This is likely to reduce attendance further and the amount of money spent overall at the show. Thus causing further traders not to attend. It is a vicious spiral ending when the costs of putting on the show cannot be met so the show closes
What you spend on your hobby is obviously down to you and I am certainly not advocating you spend money you cannot afford on the hobby. However we expect Traders to attend shows, and in return it is only fair that we spend money to make it viable to them. If we want the shows to survive we need to attend them, and spend money at them. Just attending adds very little to the financial viability of a show. Yes if your putting on a game it helps the show be interesting and may attract further attendees, but those attendees need to spend money.
Should we increase the entrance fees?
We seem to expect to attend a show for a minimal entrance fee. We (myself included) often criticise shows like Salute which charge a relatively large entrance fee. Perhaps this is the way we need to go. Not for the organisers to make huge profits, but to help cover the costs. This could reduce the amount the traders need to pay for their stands making them more viable. More traders would attend attracting larger crowds.
Should we expect traders cover the bulk of the venue cost?
They are their working and yes they are making money, but its their livelihood. They cannot afford to have a day working and not to cover costs AND to make a days wage out of it. Most probably have to make at least double if not three times their costs just to break even. By reducing the costs of them attending the show by increasing the entrance fee a little we can reduce the average spend required from each attendee significantly.
Let me give an example.
Assumptions are
37 traders on a 6' stands
Average cost to attend of £100 (fuel, B&B, stand , food etc) this is very low.
They earn minimum wage (£7.20 an hour, the show day is probably 08:00 to 16:00 ) So £60 for the day.
Their percentage of profit on their goods is 33% ( A reasonable margin).
To cover costs and pay their wages they need £160 in profit . That is takings of 160 x 3 = £480 each
37 stands taking £480 means the total amount needed to be spent at the show is £17,760 with an attendance of 500 people that's over £35 each attendee needs to spend .
If we increase the entrance fee by just £2 a person and use this to reduce the cost of each stand by £27 (£1000 divided by 37).
This means they need a profit of £133 per stand which equals takings of £399.
37 stands taking £399 means the total amount needed to be spent at the show is £14,763 or £29.50 for each attendee each. So even allowing for the additional entrance fee each attendee can spend £4.50 less and the show is still viable
Should those running participation games get in free?
Yes. They are promoting the hobby and have spent a lot of time and money to put the game together. They are effectively spending the day working at promoting the hobby and each new person who takes up the hobby will put money back into the hobby by purchasing figures, rules etc.
Should those running demo games get in free?
Probably not . Most demo games are often used by the players as a means to have an all-day game. They might talk to the public, often they don't concentrating on their game. I have seen this at countless shows and have to confess that I have done the same myself. At best I think they should get entrance at half price. Ideally they should pay normal entrance fee and then there should be a prize for "best demo game", based not only on the quality of the game but also on how they interacted with the public. The prize being a voucher to spend at the show.
Why should we expect children or females to attend free?
How many people on this forum have paid to attend an event/film/show that they had no interest in in order to take their children or spouse. I would say if they want to take their children or spouse then it's not unreasonable to charge them the entrance fee. Yes perhaps have a family ticket or reduced price for children, but they should pay.
Am I pro trader?
Yes I am, they are the life blood of the hobby. I know/have known a number of traders and people working in the hobby over the years. We the gamers may be the body of the hobby but without them supplying us with the means to function ( in the form of figures , terrain, rules etc) we risk becoming stale and stagnant.
Most run the war-games business as a side-line keeping down full time jobs as well. None that I have known well have made fortunes, keeping their heads above water financially doing a job they were passionate about has been their goal . Fortunately for us war gamers many of them have been able to do this and making exiting and interesting ranges available to you and me.
In conclusion.
Perhaps we need to take a long hard look on how we finance shows and who we expect to pay for them. The truth is with the internet the shows need the traders more than the traders need the shows. We need to look at ways to reduce the cost of the show to traders to make them more attractive. This could be done by reducing the number qualifying for free entry (over 20% at battleground) and or increasing the entrance fee. Then using this money to reduce the stand cost to the traders
I agree with all of that. Bottom line, the current model is no traders ..... no show.
Hammerhead, run by Kallistra seems to be going from strength to strength - everything is a participation game and as a punter you go there to immerse yourself in the atmosphere of the day as much as anything else. In the same year as they find themselves expanding, Triples stops, after along heritage of being on the show circuit. So the story is not the same everywhere and the unpinning issue are probably not straight forward.
I think the following is having an impact on show figures;
1. many of us already have a lot of stuff - the limitations of space at home is a factor
2. The shows are losing diversity - the balance is heavily shifting towards 28mm. There is an argument for helping helping the smaller trader financially to add diversity to the show and so the punter can find things that are welcome surprises and enhance the value of the show.
3. I will always heavily support my local show, but most other shows for me are a 200 mile round trip, a stop both ways at a refreshment place (bad back limits my driving time) and my entrance fee (which I think is generally low cost and I am happy to pay) - combining those figures and then having even a minor domestic matter to attend to that day can easily make me take a pass on the show and justify instead an internet treat or a treat from on of my fairly local hobby shops. (at one time NOTHING would stop me going to a show that was on my hit list)
4. My bad back is a good days bad days kind of thing, I can usually take it for granted that a show will not have enough nearby seating to the show floor to take 10 minutes out, so if I am too sore, I simply don't make the long journey to the show.
5. The ease of sitting in front of a computer, does not just translate to easy sales, but the bad habit of spending too many hours browsing takes us away from traditional core hobby time of actually painting figures, researching and actually playing games, especially a mid-week short evening game. In short the internet as a whole significantly reduces the need and motivation to engage with the hobby in the traditional way, which includes show attendance.
6. The bring and buy in my humble opinion has become too powerful and is out of balance with what is going on the trade floor. Rather than complementing the show, it is syphoning sales and money away from the trade floor. There are probably too many punters using the bring and buy for their own commercial advantage without re-cycling that money back into the trade floor.
7. Some gamers openly go just for the social aspect - I doubt that in the current financial environment, the show can carry that audience anymore and they provide the best argument for putting up the entry fee.
8. There is a mentality that much of the internet should be free, even those that put stuff up usually invest a lot of time or money to do so, not sure where this 'free' idea comes from, but it is there. That mind set of a free ride has crept into the show circuit, it is not sustainable.
9. There may simply be too many shows and that the jam is being spread too thinly, will we start to see fewer shows with super-shows taking centre stage and the smaller shows failing as they cannot attract the bigger names, or will the smaller shows just get even smaller, with what amounts to a club open day, with just a few local traders on hand.
As a nation (UK), we seemed to have been blissfully happy in taking our spend to the internet and out of town shopping centres and then we woke up one morning to find that our local town centres have died, with many having passed the tipping balance of not having enough diversity to bring shoppers in at all unless you want your hair cut) and who in turn then become more likely to use big shopping centres and the internet.
As to the opening question of who should pay - I think further down the road the answer will be revealed that we will have all paid by ending up with a fragmented and damaged show scene, but as in all commercial evolution, some flagship shows will emerge and I think those will be able to charge much more at the doors.
Proud to say Milton Keynes Campaign has no entrance fee, as it's an open area.
Traders pay, demo and participation games pay a nominal amount, more money comes from competition. Most traders are small or local, with just a couple of the big boys, who are there for an easy weekend. A lot of the bigger traders try us once, but because they are specialists to their range, and not really geared up to the passing public/random attendees, they don't cover costs and go away disgruntled. The independent/small guys often come back as they if they can adapt. Last couple of years these guys have done really well.
But the ethos of the show is to demonstrate Wargaming, as a hobby, not to make money from the trade. So probably bucks the trend. Whereas some other shows appear to be more and more trader dominated.
When in the UK I would go to a show for a day out, a bit like going to a gig. About half the time I did not buy anything but would look, compare and then order online. So for me, paying a fee to get in is not an issue.
Cheers
Ian
Who are shows for?
Who's the audience / customer base?
Punters are those attending - punters pay.
If we (as collective gamers - wargamers / roleplayers / boardgamers / etc) aren't prepared to pay for a show then there's no market for shows.
Traders should want to attend so they can target a captive market - as such they should pay for a place at a successful show and the more successful that show the more they will pay, that's standard marketplace economics, they will stop paying at the point they don't get a return (in some extreme cases you may take a loss to attend for the publicity but I'm not sure we're big enough for that at say Salute - at Gencon perhaps).
When I was a trader back in the dark ages of the 80s & 90s shows and paper magazines were the only ways of accessing the marketplace and they were crucial to market awareness.
I'm no longer a wargame related trader but in a world of online trading and crowdfunding I'd seriously question the economic sense of attending shows other than to promote a presence. I suspect I could achieve a bigger presence by concentrating on a quality YouTube channel or similar.
As a punter I seriously question the worth of attending shows - I can talk to a wider group of friendly enthusiasts online (yep that's what we're doing now :D) than I can at a show, I can view a wider range of product without having to deal with anti-social 'gamergate' incidents and spend as long as I like browsing, comparing and ruminating without getting a 300lb rucksack in my face. True I can't see demo games unless they are on YouTube but when they are and done well they are often better than a rushed run through at a show.
Participation games - they I can't do without a show. But do I need the rest of the show for that? Is not an arranged weekend at the WHC better? Or one of the Lardy gamedays? or just a co-hosted interclub game. Or (if it's your thing) a tournament.
Honestly I struggle to see the purpose in shows in the traditional format these days and think we should possibly be moving closer to the US idea of 'convention gaming'. When we consider the advent of things like Firestorm Games and the other one near Leicester (I think - the one Neil at Meeples uses) I think we're already seeing a trend away form trader led shows.
Some very interesting points, pretty much all of which I agree with. From a personal point of view, I attend a show for the following reasons:
- To see demo or participation games. For me this is the real driver for attending a show. Sadly these days the games are often an excuse for the club to put on a big game with sod all interest in talking to the public. This was very evident at Salute this year. In contrast the game I was helping run (Lion Rampant), we made sure that there were always 2+ people to talk to the public as well as 2+ people playing the game. We received many comments about the fact that we were playing the game and explaing the rules, action, scenario etc.
- Most games seem to be 28mm and almost static displays (related to the above). Let's have more diversity in terms of figure scales and sizes of battles. So a mix of say 28mm skirmish and 6mm large battle. When I look at some of the games on offer at shows, I see nothing of interest and so will not attend.
- The social aspect can be fun, as I always attend with friends or are demoing a game with the same.
- Shopping is the last on my list by a long, long way. From memory Rich of Too Fat Lardies attended a show on the continent where there were no traders and all games were participation, plus some talks and painting tutorials etc in between or in the evening. This would be a bit too far for me, as I like to see a game and sometimes take part, rather than having to play each game.
- Entrance fees are not too much of an issue, as long as the issues above are addressed.
What is the future for wargames shows? (Note there have been several articles in WS&S on this very point) I honestly don't know, but for my part, unless things change I can't see myself and my friends attending many in the future :(.
I'm not a big show goer.
Why?
Well, the first thing is distance. When I can, I go to the St Helens Phalanx, and I have attended shows in Manchester and Crewe, neither of which I think are run anymore. That's about my limit. Any further and it stops being a fun day out and becomes something of an expedition.
Secondly, I have seen the light and dedicated myself to Pendraken. I don't game in other scales, and unless absolutely necessary, other manufacturers. Any show with no Pendraken is like a strip show with no ping-pong balls. When you look at the stands, they break down basically into 3 groups: the figure manufacturers, the book sellers and the accessory sellers (like the dice seller). 60%-80% of these sellers have little or no interest for me.
Thirdly, the games. Demonstration games are usually very impressive. Unobtainably impressive for many gamers (like me) who have restricted funds or restricted storage space. I have a limited attention span so don't tend to spend very long watching these games. I also get very irritated with rules, cups, rulers and pipes left on the playing surface. Participation games are also not a great draw for me.
Fourthly, the social aspect. I am not a social person. If I go to shows I do so despite the people, not because of them.
In short then, for me a show has limited attraction. They're a bit like going to the Olympics when you're only interested in football.
Who are shows for? Social people certainly. I think they should showcase the hobby and try and draw new people in. How to do that? Big, colourful and loud. I think re-enactors are a great draw, but I'd also like to see participation or demonstration games that are attractive to new/young gamers. For example Pendraken could put on a demonstration and/or participation game for a WWII platoon based games and sell the "this is what we used" pack for £50.
I know none of this answers the question, but perhaps offers a different slant on shows.
Very interesting topic, and excellent comments made by all.
Certainly I felt that the demo game ('my' group) put on at Battleground could be improved upon, mainly in terms of playing surface and decluttering of the table of rules and drinks cans etc. But it wasn't my game, so I couldn't make comment. But next year hopefully I'll be involved and will try to make the viewing aspect more pleasing and viewer-friendly.
Regarding putting on a demo game next year, as mentioned above, I'd be happy to pay the show admittance fee. However, putting on the games leaves people tied down and not able to go off and shop for long, so it isn't much help to the traders.
My personal opinion is that there's too much choice in the hobby and the freedom is spreading everything too thin. Controversially, especially as I have a bit-link to a trader, I also think there's too many people trying to earn a living, or a wage / part-income, from the hobby. Everybody nowadays seems to want to produce a set of rules, a figure line, or advice manual on how to paint/model/game. There's also too many supposed experts telling us how games should look, or play, or even how shows should be run. Same goes for shows, there's too many of them and if anything some might be better done by combining two local shows into one event and being joint-run by two clubs.
[I've made bold some of the above to make sure people see that it's my opinion and not that of any trader that I'm linked with]
For a very long time there were too many other drains on disposable income and free time to justify going to any show except the local one, Claymore.
Now I'm retired I have the time and, though disposable income hasn't increased any, a free bus pass for travel in Scotland and a Senior Railcard for elsewhere has allowed me to spread the net much wider over the past couple of years.
This year I've been to Claymore, Joy of Six, Carronade, Skelp and Battleground and enjoyed all of them. I'm hoping to make Donnington or one of the London shows next year.
For me they are indeed a social occasion, a chance to put faces to names, to have interesting conversations with random strangers about things of mutual interest, to talk to traders about upcoming releases, to attempt to persuade traders (with varying degrees of success) that they should consider something I have an interest in and so on.
I like to look at games but am not that interested in playing them at shows. They are a source of inspiration, especially in terms of terrain, but most participation games involve taking too much time out of the day for my liking.
As to club-games-at-a-show games I am not at all shy about crashing the party if I see something that interests me. I've always been keen to talk to bystanders when putting on games myself so I guess I expect others to be equally passionate about what they are presenting.
Table debris. When playing at home the edges of my table are littered with tape measures, vast herds of dice, coke/beer cans, coffee cups and all the other impedimenta of a good gaming session. So seeing it at shows is a reassurance not a turn off.
Seems to me the traditional Bring & Buy has succumbed to the clammy embrace of EBay. Much less for sale and often at prices that make my eyes water. Table sales seem to be in rather better health but maybe that's just me?
For me shows need a good selection of traders to be worth going to. The chance to see items "in the flesh" makes all the difference. Wargames websites are frustratingly hit and miss when it comes to photos of the goodies! Impulse buys make up about 50% of my spend at shows.
Whatever I spend to get in reduces the amount spent with traders so if the entry fee is too high it reduces my inclination to go along. That said I've helped at enough shows to realise organisers need to cover their costs so I don't expect to get in for free. I'd sooner see family entry options rather than free entry for women and kids.
Well, that turned out to be more of a ramble than I'd expected!
Most of the shows I go to I go as part of Redcar Ironbeards team putting on either a demo or participation game. Most of the time there is no difference between the two as we try and encourage anyone who is interested to join in and make as many bad dice rolls as I do ;D ;D.
Spending most of the day at our gaming table gives me little time to wander round and spend although the last 2 shows (Battleground and Recon at Pudsey) I managed to spend about £40-£50 on each day. Mind you selling old but loved stuff on the tabletop sale at battleground I only really spent £8 that day ;D ;D
I don't know if charging people who demo games is a good idea, perhaps we should go more towards participation games to get the punters interested, even to the point of traders lending miniatures/small amounts of terrain to be used in the game with a notice on the table saying where you can buy the nice shiney things.
We don't use one specific manufacturer in any of our games, for example our "Capture The Port" game at Battleground the vehicles and figures were either Plastic Soldier Company or Flames of War, the buildings were 4Ground and Hovels, the trees were a mix of Pendraken and a Chinese company I found on ebay.
There have been a lot of great comments oin this thread I for one want to see shows continue and we, Redcar Ironbeards will continue to support any we can.
I have been going to shows since 1971 and pre-internet I used to go to shows purely and simply to buy figures that I had seen advertised in the wargaming press. Nowadays I go purely for the social aspect, to look at games and get ideas for terrain or be inspired to start a new period. Here in the south east there are two local shows per year -by local I mean bus- neither of which have much that I really need but I go every year to support them.
I also agree with the comment about the smaller scales being less well represented, but, in the defence of the larger chaps, you get loads more visuals whereas to make 10mm or smaller work you need a very big hook to draw them in. Luckily, the local club have a 3mm Modern Middle East display that ticks all the boxes for small scale eye-candy and a few years ago at the Derby show at Donnington I remember seeing a lovely Renaissance 6mm representation of the Siege of Vienna. Again, that ticked all the boxes.
I don't go in for participation games, never fancied the idea although I can understand their worth at shows. I'm another one who doesn't like to see a lot of wargaming impedimenta scattered all over the table, to my mind you want the best look you can get at a show; after all, you are trying to sell your hobby here. It would be like a guardsman turning out for Trooping the Colour in a pair of dirty boots.
I am also fed up with seeing people hunched over, so involved in their game that they cannot or will not be distracted. If I was organising a show they would only be invited once.
The Bring and Buy concept is fundamentally a good idea, it's the application that doesn't work too well anymore. I always see mounds and mounds of GW stuff which is okay if it was currently marketable but the stuff seems to depreciate in price faster than second-hand loo roll! I understand that people are trying to get some return but there is just so much of it out there to do so.
You need the traders to show up to attract the punters and you need the punters to attract the traders, so trying to find the middle ground is a bit of a conundrum. We are blessed in this country with a lot of wargamers and a lot of shows to choose from over the year, so perhaps combining some would work. Perhaps one per county per year or something.
Paying for the show is another one, as an innocent bystander I have no qualms with paying a little more for entry but including transport to somewhere like Salute -even if I had a hankering to go, which I don't- would cost me getting on towards £40; money which could be better spent on buying an army from Pendraken. Plus the fact, I have always preferred the smaller show where you can walk about, chat and get a seat in the cafeteria rather than the rugby scrum and incessant queueing at a larger event.
MickS
QuoteThe Bring and Buy concept is fundamentally a good idea, it's the application that doesn't work too well anymore. I always see mounds and mounds of GW stuff which is okay if it was currently marketable but the stuff seems to depreciate in price faster than second-hand loo roll! I understand that people are trying to get some return but there is just so much of it out there to do so.
At Colours the B'n'B is like a rugby scrum on the Saturday morning from reports I've heard. Our local show is no where near as bad, but the B'n'B and private sellers are normally checked out prior to attendees visiting the traders, which is naturally not good news for them. Also at Colours they say that GW stuff generally doesn't sell, so please don't bring it along, or words to that effect.
I only go to 1 show, wich is crisis in antwerp, and i like going to them. I pre order about half i spend to pick it up on the day, and the other half is impulse buys, or, what i call 'uncertain buys'.
Now it is in those 'uncertain buys' , that the value of a show becomes clear for me. I always go to crisis with 2-3 weeks of preparation, looking at a lot of websites and ranges/products, and i always make a list of things i want to see/buy. about half on that list are things i like, but want to see 'in the flesh' before i buy. The description or the picture i see online can't convince me, so it gets marked as an 'uncertain buy' and i go and look for the trader on the day to have a look. This year i had no luck, and most things i marked this way, didn't appeal to me when i saw them. 2 years ago i bought my trench system from ironclad this way, going to their stand with a bare infantry base and fitting it in every angle i wanted. Everything was a nice fit, and i bought an entire set.
Can't do that on a webpage :D :D :D
The way i see it, if i hadn't gone to the show, i would probably never risked buying a 15mm product for my 10 mm soldiers. Also, i have ordered more stuff from ironclad to expand my set, but if they didn't do any shows i probably wouldn't have, because i wouldn't have bought the set in the first place.
conclusion: it is good for a wargamer and a trader to go to a show. For the gamer it is great to see stuff in the flesh, and for the trader it's good to be 'visible'.
Note: this is my view on the matter, so won't talk about the games being shown. Since i always go with my wife, i never get into participation games, because she would stand there and be bored for a long while (she has absolutely no interest in wargames, she just comes along because i hate driving and she does that for me ;D )
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 04 December 2016, 11:56:04 AM
My personal opinion is that there's too much choice in the hobby and the freedom is spreading everything too thin. Controversially, especially as I have a bit-link to a trader, I also think there's too many people trying to earn a living, or a wage / part-income, from the hobby. Everybody nowadays seems to want to produce a set of rules, a figure line, or advice manual on how to paint/model/game. There's also too many supposed experts telling us how games should look, or play, or even how shows should be run. Same goes for shows, there's too many of them and if anything some might be better done by combining two local shows into one event and being joint-run by two clubs.
[I've made bold some of the above to make sure people see that it's my opinion and not that of any trader that I'm linked with]
I just wanted to say that i agree with you to some extent there.
There are lots of traders and new ones are popping up everywhere. Now i don't mind them bringing out their own rules, stuff etc.. , but sometimes i really get the feeling that product X is just a rehashed product Y and not really needed. I am not talking about miniatures at al, because i think that different sculpting styles and poses are always welcome, makes it easier for someone to really find the models they like and want for a period/genre. I am talking about the 743th zombie wargame ruleset that is 'completely different' to the other 742. I actually saw a demo video for a zombie wargame recently, and all i could think was : did you write that on a placemat while waiting for your food? It was clearly just a ruleset made to jump onto the wagon, and i don't think it added any value to the community at all. of course, after that i saw a review from someone who really liked that game, so maybe i'm wrong. horses for courses?