Whilst my mind was adrift, it alighted upon the best army ever.
So what, it asked, would be the best army ever? I'm thinking pre-mechanised, when the difference between tank types masks the difference.
For example, I always liked Welllington's Peninsula army, but consider it weak in cavalry - especially in the early days. I have a fondness for Greek Hoplite armies, but am well aware of their vulnerability in the flanks. The army of Henry V in what became the Agincourt campaign was well structured, but too small to take on anything but a chevauchee.
So what, in your humble opinions, was the best pre-mechanised army - and why?
I will go for an obvious one - Wellington's 1814 army. Balanced, experienced, confident and with the British and Portuguese elements well integrated. Certainly by 1814, it was facing a struggling France, but the Duke had the 1814 army well tuned.
I think I will go with the Mongol Army of Chinggis Khan.
Excellent cavalry of all types, the phenomenal composite bow, that gave them huge firepower. supported by the clever Chinese engineers, and eventually to conquer the second largest empire the world has ever seen.
Frederick's Prussians. Not unbeatable, but most likely of its day to win (I downgrade the Russians because of the paralysing effect of their having to get approval from distant political leaders before doing anything).
Agree with JaFOrcs, the Mongols during the conquest period is undeniably the best army in the pre-gunpowder era.
They defeated every opponent they encountered (with the exception of their invasions of Japan, where the weather conspired against them). Their victories were tactical, strategic, and political/cultural.
Mongols - How would they have fared in mountainous terrain - not suitable for cavalry?
Frederick - Yup. Got to be up there.
The army of San Marino during the wars for Italian Unification. Went to war, recruited some Austrian deserters, came back with no casualties and more men than it started with! My sort of army :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 October 2016, 10:34:39 AM
The army of San Marino during the wars for Italian Unification. Went to war, recruited some Austrian deserters, came back with no casualties and more men than it started with! My sort of army :)
;D
Quote from: fsn on 02 October 2016, 10:25:30 AM
Mongols - How would they have fared in mountainous terrain - not suitable for cavalry?
They won.
Yep - it's got to be the Mongols for me as well - and on every level from strategic to tactical
And apparently there are a lot of people today with a bit of Temujin in them - https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/mar/02/science.research (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/mar/02/science.research)
Second place would be Cassivellaunus' guerrilla force that put the kibosh on Julius Caesar's plan to conquer Briton in 54BC - ok there isn't a lot of info on it but to send home the core of the force, the warbands, and just keep the fast moving troops to make life hell for the Romans is no mean feat
The Israelite army during the conquest (partial) of Canaan circa 1200 BCE. Had one of the most rigorous and selective training programs ever. While weak in chariots possessed effective and committed light infantry, superb intelligence gather and special operations forces.
Employed sonic disrupters and time dilation effects.
Also, Wellington's Pennisular army (for reasons already given) plus great logistical and engineering services. Also capable of working reasonably well with local insurgencies
The Salvation Army. They make a point of not going round killing people.
Quote from: Luddite on 02 October 2016, 11:21:05 AM
They won.
Generally know very little about the Mongols. Can you recommend any (short and cheap) sources?
I've always been suspicious of cavalry heavy armies. Think they're far more susceptible to terrain than infantry.
Quote from: d_Guy on 02 October 2016, 01:28:22 PM
The Israelite army during the conquest (partial) of Canaan circa 1200 BCE.
Interesting choice. Your choice of the word "partial" does shade your choice somewhat.
If I had used only the "Joshua" source it would have been complete conquest :)
@at Leman the Salvation Army also has pretty snappy uniforms which haven't changed much into the Mechanised era
Alexander the Great did quite well, but an army can only really be judged on how it performed in it's own time and level of technology.
Worms, especially the first edition of the game!
Louis XIV had a pretty mean army, dominated for quite a long time
Cheers
Ian
Quote from: Bodvoc on 02 October 2016, 05:24:57 PM
Alexander the Great did quite well, but an army can only really be judged on how it performed in it's own time and level of technology.
Aye. That's the point. Alexander combined the pike with some excellent cavalry. The weakness of his army was perhaps its dependence on Alexander himself.
Quote from: Sandinista on 02 October 2016, 10:09:47 PM
Louis XIV had a pretty mean army, dominated for quite a long time
Hmmm ... what made it so good? Wasn't it up against Frederick for a while? Also, at 72 years, his was a pretty long reign.
What made it so good? Apart from some excellent engineers?
Louis had the best cavalry in Europe at the time, finance and organisation helped
Cheers
Ian
Which Frederick? The Great fought Louis XV.
The Army of Northern Virginia.
Why? The Seven Days, Second Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg (OK, slight hiccup), the Wilderness, Spotsylvania ..........
Cheers Paul
I understand that the quality of the early armies of Louis XIV was due to the establishment and maintenance of a permanent regimental system. And, of course, they had the great Turenne as an army commander until his death in 1675. However, it wasn't only quality but quantity that made it a great army. Wars of that time were largely attritional (witness the many sieges) and with France being the wealthiest power much of its success particularly in the early years (it didn't do too well in the WSS) was down to the sheer size of its army (it was the largest in Europe).
I'll probably come up with another one later but one of the best armies that springs to my mind would be the Grande Armee of 1805-07 which defeated the armies of Austria, Prussia and Russia.
p.s. @fsn: Nobby, as Leman suggested, possibly the Frederick you were thinking of was of another era? @T13A: The Army of Northern Virginia is also a good one.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 03 October 2016, 09:07:09 AM
p.s. @fsn: Nobby, as Leman suggested, possibly the Frederick you were thinking of was of another era?
Yeah - brain f**t. Got me XIV and XV muxed dip. :-[
I try and read about the lace wars, but my brain just sort of gives up and says "why not just go to the Napoleonics instead?"
Anyway, part of the reason for the question is to show a light on my ignorance. I have a mental block between 1415 and 1808, and on at least 4 continents.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 02 October 2016, 05:30:00 PM
Worms, especially the first edition of the game!
Especially when armed with the concrete Donkey and the exploding banana bomb
Quote from: Leman on 02 October 2016, 02:18:56 PM
The Salvation Army. They make a point of not going round killing people.
Yes they do some quite amazing stuff
Quote from: fsn on 03 October 2016, 09:30:11 AM
Yeah - brain f**t. Got me XIV and XV muxed dip. :-[
I try and read about the lace wars, but my brain just sort of gives up and says "why not just go to the Napoleonics instead?"
Anyway, part of the reason for the question is to show a light on my ignorance. I have a mental block between 1415 and 1808, and on at least 4 continents.
Not to worry old boy; I have a mental block on anything post 1930, or that involves faeries.
The first one was reminicent of "Zulu" - the movie
My 'best armies' are the ones I have most enjoyed putting together, regardless of how they perform on the table. For me it would be Belgian 1914, French 1870, Prussian 1756, Venetian 1509 and Seleucid c200BC. The last two are 15mm. I think my 28mm Papal 1512 may well join them. As you can see, mostly they were not particularly successful, but they've been the best fun for me.
Gotta love Seleucids. And they win quite often too. You don't have to deploy elephants among your pikemen.
Romans: Polybian to early Imperial. Destroyed their only rival in the Med. Took known Europe. Disaster in forest in Germany was a side show; the empire building continued, to be consciously reined back in the Hadrianic period.
Hi
Any army that faces me on the wargames table. Or is it the best dice rolling army that faces me.
Jim
Dads Army ....... Don't tell them Pike!
Decided to get some of the 28mm Papal army out (Romagnol pike plus supporting crossbows and two medium guns and crews) for a painting session. Really want to get these into action against the Milanese. Also just been watching Da Vinci's Demons so some interesting weapons may also appear.
After playing Prussians last Sunday, Lee's hopefully asking if she can have an all-grenadier army. That would take some stopping (though the points cost would be alarming).