I was wondering. Would it be correct if I used the PRussians flags from Pendraken sheet?
I have checked Osprey and warflag. It seems that line infantry used only black flags with white wedges. The colours will change the mood of otherwise very dark-coloured army (especially Brunswickers, with black on black ob black :) ).
The elder statesmen of Franco-Prussian knowledge will be along later (morning Cameronian, Mollinary and Le Manchu, you all alright?) but if you ask Leon there is a sheet of Prussian flags specially developed for Pendraken figures, which comes with a handy list of which unit had which flag.
The Brunswickers still carried their Waterloo flags, yellow and blue, I hand painted mine for them. Will dig out a photo for you. :) If you really want a challenge, they also still carried their 'Jingling Johnny', a series of bells on a t-shaped pole, it's preserved in a museum to this day!
Here's X Corps
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3884.0.html
1. I have the Prussian flag sheet, hence the question. :)
2. Brunswickers will be made soon, I will post some photos on weekend.
There is one with many different coloured flags too. The majority of Prussian units were black and white, but occasionally you get one which has s very different (8th infantry springs to mind)!
OK, here goes! This is not a simple question, but then little ever is! First, all three battalions of infantry regiments 13-88 carried variations on the black and white flags you describe, apart from 1/33 and 1,2/34 which had the black and white reversed. If you want a bit of colour you want to look at the Hessen-Darmstadt regiments, the Saxon Regiments, and the small duchies IR89-90(Mecklenburg), 91 (Oldenburg), 92(Brunswick), 93(Anhalt), 94(Saxe-Weimar), 95(Thuringian States), and 96(Saxe-Altenburg, Reuss, and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt). Many of these regiments flags are also on Pendraken sheets. The first 12 regiments were grenadiers and, many, if not most, of their flags were in tatters or totally eroded by 1870, they have the more colourful ones included in the current Pendraken sheet of which you speak. The guard had a variety of flag types, from plain white, through to the black and white styles used by the rest of the infantry and, in a couple of the Guard Grenadier regiments, the remains of old Napoleonic flags. As well as Pendraken (who I think may be about to add a new sheet of Prussian flags (Leon?)). Baccus make a range of 6mm flags which fit very well on 10mm figures flagpoles. I have used many of them myself!
Hope this is a start. Good luck!
Mollinary
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Figurephotos2011/FPWphotos10mm/IMG_1457_zpszciixtjr.jpg)
Some Prussians with a coloured flag (blue and yellow), white, and black and white. Stopped being an "only this regiment may appear in this battle" fascist years ago. If it looks good I just use it, and if a wargame nerd moans I just contemptuously use bad language. It's only a game after all.
Ok. So X Corps will be a rainbow Corps. Brunswickers with their flag and Pendraken flags for each regiment. :)
Other Corps (Corpses ??) will be black/white.
It just depends which regiment ended up where! ;)
Is there any source that describes flags regiment by regiment? I have the numbers
Give me the numbers and I'll find them for you.
Mollinary
After Wikipedia Order of battle for FPW war: Nos: 78, 91 (Oldenburg), 16, 57, 56, 79, 17
Brunswick Regiment (No. 92) - I have them.
I does not matter so much (units will be used in other battles as other regiments), but I would like to have one Corps correctly done. :)
Sorry BD, but it is not exactly a colourful corps, if you go for the correct flags. iR16 and 17 both have the first issue of the standard black and white flags. The central area with the eagle is orange, and all the decoration (crowns, wreaths, monograms) are in gold. IRs 56,57 and 78,79 all have the later variant with the monograms and crowns gold, and the wreaths mixed silver and green (look more silver than green). You already have the three Brunswick flags used in 1870, the Duke's and Battalion' flags of the 1st Line Battalion, and the Duke's flag of the 3rd Line Battalion. That just leaves Oldenburg IR91 who carried one flag from 1822 and 2 from 1837. These were identical on both sides, the only difference between the 22 and 37 models were the monograms, which were PFL in 1822 and PFA IN 1837. Not exactly a problem in this scale! The field colour was cornflower blue, and they all had a gold fringe on the edges not attached to the pole. In the centre of the flag was a crowned "Wappenmantel" on which the ducal arms were displayed. These are very complicated. If you send me a message I can send you a black and white photo of the flag, and describe the colours of the individual sections.
Mollinary
We've done the Oldenberger flag discussion before
The Oldenburg crest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Grossherzogtum_Oldenburg.png
If you copy, paste and resize it from here or photo bucket.
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6071.30.html
And here is the version I made,
Quote from: mad lemmey on 29 September 2012, 04:30:09 PM
An hour of pratting about, this is as far as i have got with the flag, anyone want to take it further... :P
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg2.png)
Shrunk to .9cm high, it looks pretty decent, honest! ;D >:(
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg21.jpg)
Thanks for the link to the discussion. I would still go 1 shade of blue darker than Take 3 of the flag, but do not want to start the discussion on cornflower blue again. :)
No not the cornflower blue! Here's take 3. ;D
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg2-1.png)
And I've finally found my post where they are finished and reflagged!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 30 September 2012, 02:54:25 PM
Talking of the 91st Oldenburgers, here they are before I changed the flag:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/25th%20Hessian%20Division%201870/DSCF1001.jpg)
And here it is after:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/25th%20Hessian%20Division%201870/DSCF1011.jpg)
(Just of note, the one reference I came across for the flag says that by 1866 it was in tatters, lawd knows what it must have been like in 1870)
Nice touch Lemmey, Prussians need a touch of colour.
Certainly smartens up that base Lem.
If I can just hop in here and throw in my 2 cents regarding the Oldenburg Flag colour.
I've done some research into it both online and in my book collection and will present my findings into why I believe that the blue is in fact a darker blue rather than a genuine cornflower blue.
In the regimental history I have from 1898 I think I've found some of the most tantalizing description of the real color of the flag (Geschichte des Oldenburgischen Infanterie-Regiments Nr. 91. by Frhr. von Puttkamer)
The Description of the flags is as follows, translated by me:
Each flag consists of a 3m long banner pole, in darkblue, flag tops (the metal bit on top), the standard, streamers, and tassels.
In the lower of the banner pole is a metal ring with unit designation, such as "I.R. 91. I. B". The banner of the III. Battalion still uses the old identification "F.B" (Fusilier Battalion)
The flag tops carry the name of the founder of the regiment on one side and these are as follows:
I. Battalion "P.F.L" (Herzog Peter Friedrich Ludwig)
II. Battalion and III. Battalion "P.F.A" (Grossherzog Paul Friedrich August)
On the other side of the flag top is the Iron Cross which was presented by Kaiser Wilhelm I. in 1872.
The II. Battalion flag lost the entire flag top from a rifle round on August 16, 1870 in the battle of Vionville. The flag top was later renewed
The flag top of the III. Battalion was bent after receiving a strike from a round on 15 January 1871 in the battle by Sille le Guillaum.
There remains little of the standards. The standards were made from heavy blue silk and included the Oldenburger Coat of Arms from the time of presentation.
The territories that that were given to Oldenburg during the Vienna Congress of 1815 were only included on the Coat of Arms from 1829. That means the coat of arms on the standard of the I. Battalion is
different than the coat of arms on the standards of the II. and III. Battalions.
The coat of arms had a mantle and crown above them. It also had a golden fringe on the edges.
The standard was fastened to the flag pole with brass nails. Beside each brass nail was an iron auxiliary nail.
Above the standard attached to the flag pole are two even 1/2 meter long gold tassels in the Oldenburger colors (blue-red). These are attached by a loop. On the same spot can be found two 1.5 meter long streamers. I. and II. Battalion were presented with these in 1842 by Grossherzogin Caecilie and the III. Battalion in 1863 by the Grossherzogin Elisabeth. These streamers are white silk edged in gold stitching and attached by means of a loop. They contain the names of the presenters in gold stitching. In addition each standard carries the award for the 1866 campaign, the Oldenburg'she Commemorative medal for 1866. The ribbon band for this medal is blue and red. As well, they carried the Prussian commemorative cross for the same campaign of 1866. These was on a black and yellow ribbon band which had a two crossed swords sewn on.
Each standard also carries 25th anniversary black, white, and red ribbon band for famous actions, presented by His majesty the Kaiser.
On these bands there is a golden bar with the name a battle that they took part in during the 1870/71 war. From bottom to top:
Vionville-Mars la Tour, Gravelotte-St. Privat (18. August), Metz, Diedenhofen (Thionville; only II. Battalion), Ladon & Maiziers, Beaune la Rolande, Orleans (3. 4. Dec), Beaugency-Cravant (10. Dec), Vendome (15. Dec; only I. and III), Villeporcher (only I.), Montoire les Roches, le Mans, (only I. and III.), Chassille (14. Jan only II.), Sille le Guillaume (only I. and III.) and St. Jean sur Erve (only II.)
(http://i.imgur.com/mBAh8jq.jpg?1)
But I think the best proof comes from Fiebig even if he mistates what color the blue was with his descriptions of the flags after they were renewed by Kaiser Wilhelm II in 1905. It should be noted at this point that the original and the renewed flags had the same image on both sides of the flag.
"When the flags were renewed, the old beautiful pattern was kept but with small changes. The cornflower blue standards received red wedges, the flags fringes were removed, the laurel branches became gold. The corner initials were rearranged to point inward. The corner initials now had two W.R and two times the previous initials, for example PFL for the I. Battalion, and PFA for II. and III. Battalions.
Included in Fiebigs book is also a color image of the renewed flag in the so called corn flower blue.
(http://i.imgur.com/BwVyJA0.jpg?1)
Finally I have some better images of the renewed standard which I contend continues the tradition of the original dark blue cloth colour that was found on the flag carried in 1866 and 1870.
(http://i.imgur.com/By83lzT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IL6NDbi.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gfuV02S.jpg)
As you can read, the regimental history only says it's a blue and not the cornflower blue that is mentioned in Fiebig's Unsterbliche Treue. This idea that the blue is richer and deeper than a proper cornflower blue is also supported by the idea that the ribbon bands are using the same oldenburg color scheme that's found on the state's flag. The blue used by Oldenburg can be seen in these images too. I think that it might possibly have been called officially cornflower blue, but I think it was a much darker blue than what we consider cornflower blue. A similar situation in my mind as with the case of the cornflower blue of bavarian uniforms being darker on surviving uniforms from 1870 than those commonly illustrated in post 1870 images and in the FPW osprey book.
(http://i.imgur.com/zBtBLYN.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/0N3FSJP.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JCR1RNh.jpg)
On that last image I mean to draw your attention the lance pennant.
Hopefully that wasn't too tedious for everyone!
Patrick
Not at all, Patrick !
I found it very interesting.
I sometimes wonder whether different artists have shown what their eyes have interpreted as a/the 'correct shade'.
After all, we each see (and probably describe) colours in a very slightly different way, anyway. (Sometimes fairly drastically !)
Hope that makes sense !
Cheers - Phil.
Great find.
Might be the definitive answer to that flag question. (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)
Hi Patrick,
A fascinating discussion, and excellent research. Your illustrations clearly show the problem, as they seem to show at least three different shades of blue! I would be inclined to go with the colour blue shown on the Lance pennon, and the medal ribbon. I agree that cornflower blue is a much darker shade than is commonly thought, and both Bavarian and Saxon surviving uniforms of the period appear much darker than many nineteenth century prints would imply. My own figures for both armies use Vallejo medium blue as a base colour.
Mollinary
The problem being that 1) there would be no batch uniformity in the dye colour since at this time dye manufacture was more a craft than an industrial process 2) before the advent and widespread use of the anilene dyes (German invention) the plant/insect/mineral dyes in common use would wash out/fade with alarming rapidity.
It's true that there are a whole host of issues that also need to be considered. As Cameronian rightly states that dyes could be different with each batch, something that still is a problem to this day! Additionally the exposure to UV can alter the colours and mute them and cause them to alter.
And as Mollinary also points out correctly the images I posted show many different shades of blue, which can be chaulked up to a number of different factors, artist interpretation of the correct shade of blue, the photograph settings of whoever scanned the images I used, and finally the dyes used in the lithographs.
I've also looked in Regimental Colors of the German Armies in the War of 1870-71 by Gherardi Davis and unfortunately Oldenburg's regimental flag is not illustrated, he also only uses the term Blue to describe it without giving a more detailed shade name.
So what's this all mean? Well without real research into the colour and or tracking down what's left, if anything, of the renewed flag, we might never know. However I'm still of the mind that it was a darker shade of blue than what is called cornflower blue.
Also here's image of a surviving example of a dragoons lance pennant from 1882 which shows a fairly dark blue.
(http://i.imgur.com/ppKQAEY.jpg)
Finally, as someone that does book restoration and encounters blue fabrics/papers often enough, I can personally attest to the fact that seem to be a million shades of blue and that the eye had a knack for discerning them a lot more easily than various shades of red. This makes restoring/color matching blues so much harder with materials I have access to. The old dyes produced shades that are hard if not impossible to recreate with the synthetic dyes used in papers, clothes, inks that are used today.
Really interesting stuff there, thanks for posting it.
8)
This is really good stuff Oat, between you and Mollers I think we have a tremendous resource here.
Great stuff Patrick,
Of course, if you have Fiebig, you will also have the black and white photo of one of the originals, in which the field does look much lighter than the later ones. I am not sure what effort would have been made to match the field of the originals when they were replaced, or even, as you indicate, whether the same dyes were still available. Great and fascinating debate. Many thanks.
Mollinary
I see the flag above as so dark, I'd have said it was black, rather than dark blue.
Excellent discussion though, chaps !
Cheers - Phil
I'm glad to see that people are enjoying what I've posted and that it's creating more discussion into the proper blue! :D
I also looked at the black and white photographs in Fiebig and you're right the field itself is much lighter than what I'd suppose a dark blue would be. Just like the lithographs (which like the large image with the soldier in white pants uses the same blue on the uniform as the flag) is limited by so many technical considerations :( Who knows how long the exposure was for the image, which could make the whole thing appear lighter than original. Sadly I think we might never know but I think it's probably a mid level blue, similar to the blue used on the medal's ribbon...not the faded part but the little bit of thread near the top that seems to be the original color that hasn't been faded with time.
I'm trying to get into contact with the German Historical Museum (DHM) to see if they have any knowledge of what happened to IR 91's flags, if there is anything left etc. I'm also going to put a call out to a historian I know with the Bundeswehr to see if they have the flag in one of their officers halls, ie the Stauffenbergsaal in the Officers school in Dresden.
If I find anymore information I will share it with everyone
Regards,
Patrick
Patrick, you are a man after my own heart! I went down these sort of routes a decade ago to find the Saxon flags, and was helped enormously by the staff at the Army Museum in Dresden, and even invited to go and see the originals held in their magazines. All the information was there, it was just the lack of English language sources which had kept it hidden from the watgaimng world. I look forward to hearing more about your investigations. Who knows, you may have inspired me to restart my own!
Mollinary
haha what can I say, us oddballs know how to find each other! Mollinary, have you seen/read "Die Fahnen und Standarten der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee 1806-1918" by Militarhistorische Schriften des Arbeitskreises Saschsische Militargeschichte e.V ? It's a fantastic source for Saxon flags. There is also Hottenroth: Sächsische Fahnen und Standarten. Though finding a copy outside of a library is next to impossible it seems :
In addition to obscure topics like the specific color of blue on three flags carried during the unification wars, I'm also a sucker for regimental histories and more specifically information on the logistics, specific lessons learned during the 1870 war (ie fighting in forests, urban settings, sieges) and the small war that was fought behind the front lines. I've been slowly amassing all the books I can find that were published on these subjects during the 19th-early 20th century in germany.
Glad to find another person like me out there! haha ;D
We nuts have to stick together! I picked up the Arbeitskreis book when I visited the museum in Dresden, and then got a photocopy of Hottenroth and a CD of its colour illustrations from Historischer-Bilderdienst.de
Keep,up the good work!
Mollinary
Oat ... and others, if you are interested in regimental histories keep an eye out for forthcoming issues of the Foreign Correspondent. Dr Frederich Steinhardt, who has done such a magnificent job translating Heidrich and Fontane is planning to submit a series of articles based on regimental histories of the period, mostly Prussian.
Greetings
Resurrecting this thread.
I have what I assume to be an old Pendraken FPW set of Prussian flags with:
- 7 white field, no cross, orange centre (black eagle) with silver green surround and corner wreaths
- 2 black field, white cross, orange centre (black eagle) with gold surround and corner wreaths
- 4 white field, black cross, orange centre (black eagle) with gold surround and corner wreaths
- 12 white field, black cross, orange centre (black eagle) with silver green surround and corner wreaths.
The wedges are broader than on the picture of the current flags.
Are any of these usable or are they too inaccurate? I will in any event be getting a sheet of newer flags but do not know if I could some use of some of the flags I have.
Basically I will end up with needing 2-4 Guard colours, plus at least 12-15 line infantry colours (as well as Hessian, Saxon, Bavarian, Baden etc colours) can get from other Pendraken sheets. In the main I am aiming to have a colour per brigade for BBB purposes.
While I am at it does anyone know which colours either IR.75 or 76 carried in 17th Division?
Kind regards.
Edward
Hi Edward,
IR 75 and 76, raised in 1867, had the model 1828 pattern for all their battalions - ie the black cross on white background with green/silver wreaths. Your earlier flag sheest are broadly accurate, as far as I recall, if a bit garish in colour (particularly the green). They may, however, be a slightly different size to the later ones. The flags with the plain white fields are for Guard Fusiliers 3rd Battalion, all Battalions of the 3rd and 4th Foot Guards, Guard Schutzen Battalion, Garde Pioneer Battalion, Guard Artillery. The ones with a white cross on a black field would work for landwehr units. The black cross on a white field flags with gold would work for a lot of units, but mostly IRs 13-30. The ones with the silver and green for most IRs from IR 36 on.
Hope this quick note helps.
Mollinary
Hi again Edward,
Just had another thought. If your sheet has FPC2 Franco Prussian War Prussian Infantry written at the top of it , contains exactly what you described, except 3, rather than 4, of the black cross with gold wreaths, then it is actually a Baccus 6mm sheet! It is fine for use with your army, and fits well on 10mm Pendraken flagpoles. In fact my entire FPW/APW Prussian army of Pendraken figures uses these flags. The white flags with black crosses which you describe are in fact for the first two battalions of the Guard Fusiliers, who took the old flags of the Guard Landwehr when they were formed. If you look carefully there should be small difference in some fo the flags with white fields, and these reflect the differences between flags for the 1st and 2nd Foot Guard Regiments and the 3rd and 4th.
Hope this helps!
Andrew
Greetings
Thanks Andrew.
Quote from: mollinary on 25 March 2017, 12:47:28 PM
Hi again Edward,
Just had another thought. If your sheet has FPC2 Franco Prussian War Prussian Infantry written at the top of it , contains exactly what you described, except 3, rather than 4, of the black cross with gold wreaths, then it is actually a Baccus 6mm sheet! It is fine for use with your army, and fits well on 10mm Pendraken flagpoles. In fact my entire FPW/APW Prussian army of Pendraken figures uses these flags. The white flags with black crosses which you describe are in fact for the first two battalions of the Guard Fusiliers, who took the old flags of the Guard Landwehr when they were formed. If you look carefully there should be small difference in some fo the flags with white fields, and these reflect the differences between flags for the 1st and 2nd Foot Guard Regiments and the 3rd and 4th.
Hope this helps!
Andrew
It is definitely a Pendraken sheet. I'll wait to get a new Pendraken set of flags and see what I can mix and match. I might get a 6mm set form Peter at Baccus to compare size wise.
Kind regards
Edward
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 25 March 2017, 02:05:00 PM
Greetings
Thanks Andrew.
It is definitely a Pendraken sheet. I'll wait to get a new Pendraken set of flags and see what I can mix and match. I might get a 6mm set form Peter at Baccus to compare size wise.
Kind regards
Edward
Edward,
How odd! My only memory of an old Pendraken sheet also had a number of the more colourful flags carried by some of the Grenadier and Guard Grenadier Regiments in it. it was these whcih I found rather garish. Even more curious that it has such a similar breakdown to the Baccus sheet. As a matter of interest, if I may, how big are the flags?
Best,
Andrew
Greetings
Quote from: mollinary on 25 March 2017, 04:00:24 PM
Edward,
How odd! My only memory of an old Pendraken sheet also had a number of the more colourful flags carried by some of the Grenadier and Guard Grenadier Regiments in it. it was these whcih I found rather garish. Even more curious that it has such a similar breakdown to the Baccus sheet. As a matter of interest, if I may, how big are the flags?
Best,
Andrew
Andrew - about 1cm square.
Edward
Thanks Edward. The Baccus ones are a little smaller, at 9mm, but not much. As I say they work very well on the 10mm figures' flagpoles.
Andrew