Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => Firelocks to Maxims (1680 - 1900) => Topic started by: Brotherdargon on 09 August 2016, 01:03:45 PM

Title: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Brotherdargon on 09 August 2016, 01:03:45 PM
All 3 regiments are waiting for painting. What are the uniform colours?
Options I found: blue jacket/ blue trousers, blue jacket/ white trousers. What about the cap/turban? Any differences between regiments?
Any help appreciated. :)
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 09 August 2016, 01:07:58 PM
Pale blue/turquoisey jacket, white pantaloons (looks good) red fez (or whatever its called) with pale blue tassel, no turban, brown men, white officers (red pants, pale blue/turquoisey coat, red kepi, blue sash). This is all you need to know, its 10mm  ;)
... and the 'hand of the prophet' flags from Pendraken look really spiffing.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Brotherdargon on 09 August 2016, 01:10:31 PM
Perfect. Now I can finish the elites of French army. :)
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 09 August 2016, 01:29:34 PM
Told you Cameronian would be straight there.  8)
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 August 2016, 02:27:00 PM
NO YOU DIDNA

IanS
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 09 August 2016, 02:32:41 PM
Did on faceache!  :P
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 09 August 2016, 03:03:20 PM
Mollinary will be along shortly to advise re the flags, fanions whatever they're called  ;)
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Chad on 09 August 2016, 03:44:07 PM
Cam

Most illustrations I have seen they are wearing the turban. Was it not worn on campaign?

Chad
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 09 August 2016, 05:04:47 PM
I don't think it was.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Leman on 10 August 2016, 07:27:24 AM
The turban was usually not worn in battle. The white linen trousers were for summer wear. From autumn onwards pale blue woollen trousers of the same cut were worn. Officers wore red trousers and kepi. The pale blue items of clothing had yellow trim.

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Froeschwiller%20Project/IMG_1311_zpse9232370.jpg)

Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 10 August 2016, 10:22:41 AM
Mollinary is lurking, I feel his presence.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Brotherdargon on 10 August 2016, 11:26:58 AM
Ok. The final uniform colours: trousers - white. Jackets - light blue.
Officers: Jackets - the same, trousers red.
It seems that one of the drummers is from SYW, in tricorne. This will make a perfect Easter egg.
Flags: standard blue-white-red
Photos pending, need better natural lighting.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: mollinary on 10 August 2016, 11:41:35 AM
Quote from: cameronian on 10 August 2016, 10:22:41 AM
Mollinary is lurking, I feel his presence.

Hmmm!  All I know, which is not much on this topic, is contained in the thread on this forum from 2014 entitled Zouave Fanions.  What is certain is that each regiment of the Tirailleurs Algeriens carried a normal Eagle and tricolour with their regimental name and number in the white section.

Mollinary
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Brotherdargon on 10 August 2016, 01:57:00 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 10 August 2016, 11:41:35 AM
Hmmm!  All I know, which is not much on this topic, is contained in the thread on this forum from 2014 entitled Zouave Fanions.  What is certain is that each regiment of the Tirailleurs Algeriens carried a normal Eagle and tricolour with their regimental name and number in the white section.

Mollinary

At my scale (2 square bases = 12 models) per regiment, tricolor is enough. :)
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: mollinary on 10 August 2016, 02:17:03 PM
Quote from: Brotherdargon on 10 August 2016, 01:57:00 PM
At my scale (2 square bases = 12 models) per regiment, tricolor is enough. :)

At mine too!  My battalions are three bases, each of four figures, and I have one eagle per regiment. The other battalions have to make do with an officer!   

Mollinary
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Leman on 10 August 2016, 05:04:35 PM
But one eagle per regiment is what they had historically, and those little pennants they popped in the rifle muzzle are too small to bother with in 10mm.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 10 August 2016, 05:10:12 PM
No, the ones Pendraken do are proper flags, different colours with the prophet's hand in the centre and a crescent in each corner, might be worth checking that thread Mollinary mentioned earlier.
Later - sorry, its Fatima's hand (silly me); perhaps Leon might chip in as the flags are Pendraken, anyhow, point is they look quite spiffy, give the Turcos a bit more eastern exoticism.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: mollinary on 10 August 2016, 05:38:26 PM
Quote from: cameronian on 10 August 2016, 05:10:12 PM
No, the ones Pendraken do are proper flags, different colours with the prophet's hand in the centre and a crescent in each corner, might be worth checking that thread Mollinary mentioned earlier.
Later - sorry, its Fatima's hand (silly me); perhaps Leon might chip in as the flags are Pendraken, anyhow, point is they look quite spiffy, give the Turcos a bit more eastern exoticism.


I have never seen these in Pendraken's list, and Leman is right, they should be Fanions, so at most half the size of normal flags.

Mollinary
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 11 August 2016, 06:55:13 AM
Are you sure ? So where the hell did i get min then ?
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Leman on 11 August 2016, 06:57:05 AM
Flags R Us?
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Oat on 11 August 2016, 06:49:53 PM
I feel like I've got a bit to add to the conversation about fanions.

The regulations of 1857 laid down that battalion fanions were:

1st battalion: blue sheet
2nd battalion: red sheet
3rd battalion: yellow sheet
4th battalion: green sheet

When wartime expansion created extra battalions, these used the same sequence of colours, but had a central vertical white band down the sheet.

The devices were coloured by company (note that in the French army, companies were numbered consecutively through the regiment, and not the battalion):

1st, 5th, 9th, 13th: blue
2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th: red
3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th: yellow
4th, 8th, 12th, 16th: green

Here are two colour photos of 2 surviving examples which were captured in the frontier battles.

http://dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=5&fld_0=MI008197
http://dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=5&fld_0=MI010015

and because life wasn't meant to be easy I also found these anomalies to the official rules

The pennant of the 2nd Tirailleurs, 1st battalion, lost in Woerth (Franco-Prussian war, 6 August 1870), is 49 x 54.5 cm, with a red field and a light blue border of 5 cm width. The crescents and the hand of Fatima are light blue.
The pennant of the 2nd Tirailleurs, 2nd battalion, is 47 x 52 cm, with a blue field and a black border of 5 cm width. The crescents and the hand of Fatima are light blue, but they have their points oriented to the inside.
The pennants of the 3rd Tirailleurs, 3rd batallion, is red-orange with w white border and a white hand of Fatima.

Officially the crescents and the fatima hand on battalion fanions were green but the surviving examples show that it wasn't always the case!  

These fanions would be small compared to the TriColour, about half the size. Tricolours (1860 model) had official dimensions of 100 x 100 cm on a pole of 235 cm. Battalion fanions officially measured in at 50 x 50 cm ( for 1,3,4th battalions, 67 x 67 cm for 2nd battalion) on a shaft that measured 80 cm long. 20 cm's of the shaft was plugged into the barrel of the rifle.   So on 10 mm (or in my case 6 mm) the flags would be quite small by not so small as not to be seen.

Pierre Charrie's Drapeaux et Etendards du XIXeme Siecle book is an amazing resource for french military flags during this period.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: mollinary on 11 August 2016, 07:23:46 PM
Great Post!  As you say, the Charrie books on French flags are THE source, and in our 2014 discussion on Zouave Fanions we came to  the conclusion that, as rhey are not specifically mentioned in Charrie,then they probably adhered to the normal line regulations.  Unfortunately, as I don't have the 19th century Charrie I was not able to share his views on the Turcos' Fanions, a gap which you have filled superbly!

Mollinary (inadequate flag geek  :) )
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: cameronian on 12 August 2016, 07:25:10 AM
Excellent post, thank you.
Title: Re: 1870 Tirailleurs algeriens - uniform colours
Post by: Oat on 12 August 2016, 06:11:00 PM
Always glad to help share what knowledge I have. If any of you ever have any more questions about French flags I'll look in that wonderful book to see what he says!