Hi chaps,
What suggestions do you have for using the LoA figures?
I've been looking at the new ECW set with cut out paper figures by Peter Dennis and it looks the right kind of level - simple but with period feel. It's not a period I know much about so would like the rules to guide the game to a period feel and result without the players needing to know the period too well.
I have Irregular Wars which might stretch this late - but these are more large skirmish rather than massed battle.
I suspect I am looking for a unit made of a few bases. 40mm square would be nice.
Thanks in advance.
What about Baroque. I think it caters for this period?...
Yes it does.
I like Pike and Shotte gives a good game in 3 hours
Cheers
Ian
Baroque for me, covers 1560-1700 - and there are official amendments in the pipeline to take them through WSS as well (I'm hoping that will give us GNW too)
Guys down the club say FOG R are really good for 17th century as well although I have never played them
I'd go FogR
Beneath The Billy Lily Banners is the only LoA specific rules I know of - but, whilst reasonably popular (see LoA blog and website), not everyone's cup of tea. :-\
I have not heard a single positive report for the above. FOGR are a good set, but far from simple. Pike and Shotte are a Black Powder derivative, thus they have a 'chatty' rulebook, which means crucial rules sometimes crop up in passing or are even where you'd least expect to fond them. Baroque are a very nice set, but only 3 bases to a unit, so not for those looking to mimic all sorts of formations (see FOGR for that).
First choice would be FoG R, second Baroque
Thanks chaps lots to look into.
Baroque sounds good, but I've looked at Impetus before and failed to under stand it. It's of interest that it covers ECW too.
FoGR - from what I've read about it, it sounds pretty complex and competitors orientated
Pike and Shotte - we have played lots of HC but really didn't get on with BP. Again these could be used earlier which is good. What is bad is the toolkit nature.
How about Donnybrook by League of Ausberg
Hello
I've always liked playing with Victory Without Quarter, an ECW rule set (https://gcooksonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/victory-without-quarter-rules.pdf (https://gcooksonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/victory-without-quarter-rules.pdf)). There is a forum at http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewforum.php?f=20&sid=a484943db2f8a5ff1cba8380bc1c45c1 (http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewforum.php?f=20&sid=a484943db2f8a5ff1cba8380bc1c45c1) that may be able to help with modification. They are a simple and fun rule set, card based activation, etc. I was always going to tinker with them to bring them up to Siege of Vienna 1680s but I needed to get one of these....
(http://www.xoterik.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tuit.jpg)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
I like Lily Banner.
Thanks GoM, VWQ look interesting - have printed a copy to peruse further. The idea of card activation appeals in theory. I will see how it feels in practise.
Beneath the Lily Banners - does anyone have a link to some favourable reviews - found 1 that was not too impressed - mainly due to lots of small turns, I think.
Donnybrook - this is smaller scale actions than I'm looking for.
I think you'll find Baroque a much easier set to get to grips with than the original Impetus - the Italian to English is much improved, although alas not perfect and the mechaniocs both more streamlined , easier and better explained.
If there's a particular aspect of the Impetus set that you need assistance with, happy to step you through it, at heart it's pretty straight forward.
I've heard good things about VWQ but not played them.
BTLB is rather old school, judging by your initial comments I doubt its what you're looking for (it is very pretty and has lots of good info, the guys know their stuff), neither is FOG-R I suspect, Pike & Shotte is too early, LOA is allegedly covered by BP but I think its a stretch. Maurice kind of covers it but it's not tailor made.
Decent late 17th C rules are a bit thin on the ground hence the relief at Baroque being released (FOG being far to fiddly for my taste), everything else is distinctly elderly or a bit of a stretch.
Donnybrook are fun but not the right scale - it'd be like doing Wagram with Sharp Practice, technically do-able but in reality just daft :)
You can pick Baroque up from Wargames Vault as a PDF for a tenner - probably worth the gamble.
Hello
Quote from: fred. on 03 July 2016, 09:05:17 PM
Thanks GoM, VWQ look interesting - have printed a copy to peruse further. The idea of card activation appeals in theory. I will see how it feels in practise.
Card activation works ok for small number of units (and I use it for this) but I think you need brigade cards for larger scale battles. Discussed here for VWQ http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3359&sid=b384aa76720cf836ae9b39bae01dc817 (http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3359&sid=b384aa76720cf836ae9b39bae01dc817)
Also saw these rules that might be interesting http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/twilight-of-sun-king.html (http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/twilight-of-sun-king.html) http://balagan.info/twilight-of-the-sun-king-2001-version (http://balagan.info/twilight-of-the-sun-king-2001-version) and http://balagan.info/optional-rules-and-musings-for-twilight-of-the-sun-king (http://balagan.info/optional-rules-and-musings-for-twilight-of-the-sun-king) they're the original Twilight of the Sun King, current version available from the P&S Society. Saw that Kaptan Kobold tried using a d10 and thought of you :).
Edit - Oops, just went to the P&S Society page and it doesn't look like they sell TotSK any more.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
An updated version of the Twilight of the Sun King rules is imminent, along with a scenario booklet with 10 LoA and WSS battles. A second scenario booklet with 10 GNW and Ottoman battles should follow.
Thanks for all the suggestions chaps, I have the following for perusal:
Wargame the English Civil War by Peter Dennis - this is a short set of fairly simple rules, but with some interesting stuff around multi-round combats, designed to work with the paper cut-out figures that come with the rules. The core of the rules are not dissimilar to VWQ, but straight IGOUGO rather than card activation.
Victory without Quarter - card activated, fairly straight forward rules, certainly look good for solo due to card activation
Baroque - picked this up on PDF, rather than the printed book. The most complex of the 3, and the broadest in coverage. Easier to understand than Basic Impetus that I really struggled with, but I'm still working though all of this - it could do with a simple outline of the core mechanisms, with the extra details and complexities presented after. Really like the big Tercio bases.
The good news is that all 3 would work with a unit of 3 x 40x40mm bases (wargame the ECW probably would like you to have 6 bases, but lots of the pictures show 3).
Next step is some trial games to see what actually works - and then sort some figures out. Well sort out the figures I already have to see what armies they would make (and buy the extras that will obviously be needed)
I still think that Tony Barr's RenaissanceMaster is worth a look...if you can't locate it, bung me an email & I'll zap over to you :)
Ta Nik, found it over on Rick's Warmaster Pages
Quote from: fred. on 08 July 2016, 11:18:20 AM
Ta Nik, found it over on Rick's Warmaster Pages
8)
It's what I keep going back to...
Thanks for that guys. I have now downloaded the Renaissance Master stuff. Shed load of army lists plus the advantage of same base frontage as FOGR and WITAOD.
I love Captain General published by the pike and shot society. http://www.pikeandshotsociety.org/
It really captures the difference between the rank and platoon firing. The basing really reflects the diff.
Here is a French Battalion
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2654/5745560982_04b79b7b0c.jpg)
And a Dutch Battalion
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2221/5745560882_53ae386e0a.jpg)
As you can see both have the same number of figures so the difference is frontage.
The rules have a great command and control system that really shows the difficulty of moving unit. Fire and combat are with out figure removal and the combat between lines is very dynamic.
The authors really know the period and Ian Stanford has written numerous articles about the period in the Arqubussier (the Pike and Shot Society journal)
The rules really show the advantage of designing for a specific period and are not a catch all d6 die rolling game.
William
Thank you for the plug William
kind regards
Iain Stanford
PS ... Issue 1 of Volume 35 will be out soon ... for those of you who have not resubscribed yet
I recently played a game with LoA armies using Warlord's Pike and Shotte, the game flowed very well and the game was very enjoyable.
I think I would like to get my hands on Baroque and see how they work too.
Missed those piccies above !
Very nice work, that man.
Cheers - Phil
I have looked at Baroque and found it more suited toward ECW.
I just ordered Captain general and will compare it to BLB.
BLB seems to capture the flavor of the 9 years war very well, IMHO.
Could you expand a bit more on your analysis, please?
I'm interested to hear the opinions of those who know more about this period, and how the different rule sets map to it.
BLB is designed for the period 1660 to 1721.
It would cover the wars of LoA, Scanian war, WSS and the GNW. For anything before or after those wars there are better period specific rules.
An infantry battalion is 18 figures and a Squadron is 9 figures using this as a base larger battles can be fought with brigades and armies. Ratio 1:40.
Casualties are determined by a bushel basket die throw. This has been declared "old school" but I kind of like it.
BLB covers the difference between fire by rank and platoon fire very neatly.
Orders are issued by chits.This seems cumbersome at first, but reduces the if you do that then I'll do this lawyer factor.
I find that it gives a game a conclusive result in about 3 hours for a large battle.
The rules flow very nicely, and like every set they take just a game or two to get down to just reference sheet.
Just as a note, Swedes are terrors of the battle field. Best out number them by a lot.
I hope this helps.
I'll try to point out more pros and cons when I receive captain general.
Thanks that helps - I'll have another look at BLB, but first impressions seem to show it was quite fiddly
The Pike and Shot Society are in the process of sending an updated version of Twilight of the Sun King called Birth of the Age of Reason to the Printers - there will also be a scenario book
The rules have been developed by Nick Dorrell and can be played on two levels - Brigade and Regimental - they can be played using all figure scales but I would suggest 10mm might be the best scale to use
We hope to get them out by early October at the latest
kind regards
Iain Stanford
There does seem to be a resurgence of rules for this period.
I will continue to paint steadily and await further developments on the rule front.
Is it another case of good figures spawning appropriate rules
Quote from: iain1704 on 27 August 2016, 09:14:11 AM
The Pike and Shot Society are in the process of sending an updated version of Twilight of the Sun King called Birth of the Age of Reason to the Printers - there will also be a scenario book
The rules have been developed by Nick Dorrell and can be played on two levels - Brigade and Regimental - they can be played using all figure scales but I would suggest 10mm might be the best scale to use
Will these cover large armies, like my French?
First of all what a great army Sandinista.
On your question the rules are aimed at doing large battles and you define the unit size, usually a brigade is the unit. So you could use 1 of what appear to be your units as a unit or 2 or 3 or whatever. Our figures are based similarly to yours and we usually use 2 units to be a unit/brigade.
I think you have 40 infantry units so that could be 20 brigades if you do as above. You need 24 brigades for Neerwinden/Landen, i.e. one of the biggest battles. For the largest battles like Neerwinden/Landen I would suggest 2 players a side or having a longer playing time. But most other battles should be 1 player a side and fight it in an afternoon/evening.
If you fancy something large and quick, without too much bogging down, then there is a C17th version of Too the Strongest in the pipeline.
WTF?
Gå På may be another one to consider. Although initially designed for the GNW, the Swedish and Russian Foot (like the LoA) are organised in combined arms teams of Pike & Shot in a similar fashion to those in the LoA. These rules also appear to be closer in chronological terms to the LoA than, say, VWQ which was initially designed for the ECW.
As I recall (I've got these rules somewhere in the house but not immediately to hand so apologies in advance if I recall incorrectly), Saxon, Danish, Dutch, English and French armies and the WSS are also featured. Unfortunately, I've never played a game (only a few 'test' manoeuvres, so to speak) but one of the innovations they have as I recall, tries to replicate the deteriorating level of visibility that develops during a black powder battle as more and more guns are discharged. Although I liked other features such as the idea of units using separate officer / command figures to denote command status, one of the things that put me off them was the proscribed base sizes and number of bases per unit depending on nationality (understandable given the differing tactical doctrines and evolution of formations in that era from ranks of 6 deep at the end of the 16th century to 3 deep by the end of the WSS) - I like a more simple and standardised basing structure for my miniature war-games units (another reason was that I didn't fully fancy what was on offer from figure manufacturers in the scale I was looking for at the time I bought them - no excuse now with the release of Pendraken's LoA range!). Perhaps one of the forum members has a greater knowledge of the rules to describe them further?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 28 August 2016, 08:32:15 AM
WTF?
Does this mean, "I was not aware of that;" or is it, "That's a jolly bad idea" ?
It mean me no savvy "Too the Strongest".
It's a set of Ancient rules. Played on a table with 4" squares marked. Playing my first game with DaveL at the moment. So far seems easy to pick up, plays quickly but effectively.
Mollinary is more experienced than me on the rules and believe he recently played a large demo game. He might be able to fill in some 'blanks' so to speak.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 28 August 2016, 10:01:28 AM
It mean me no savvy "Too the Strongest".
I think you will find it's a comment on the use of 'too' instead of 'to'.
Quote from: cameronian on 28 August 2016, 10:36:59 AM
I think you will find it's a comment on the use of 'too' instead of 'to'.
I think Cam is at his most perspicacious! But just in case, TtS is a grid based set of Ancient rules which allow big battles to be played quickly (at 'The Other Partizan' we played Raphia to an exciting conclusion with six players, most of them unfamiliar with the rules, in two and a quarter hours). Dice throwing is replaced by drawing cards from a pack of 80 cards, eight each of numbers 1-10 ( so two normal packs put together with the court cards removed). Mechanisms are simple and quick to pick up. At present I am working with Simon Miller, the author, on producing an ECW variant. Currently being playtested.
Mollinary
Its this typilnmg thing - I often hither wrong keys and then have too apples put up with auyttogpehuyhrevt cutting on swell.
Quote from: fred. on 03 July 2016, 09:05:17 PM
Donnybrook - this is smaller scale actions than I'm looking for.
Granted, you will probably have made your decision long ago, but here's a new one that might be eligible for consideration. Although the cover suggests ECW/TYW, apparently these are usable up to the Great Northern War (which obviously surpasses the LoA). Basing
might be problematical (although the Rules may have something to say about that) but, for those starting from scratch, perhaps Leman's idea of multiple 10mm figures per base instead of 1 28mm figure per base might be the solution.
Well that's how I play both Dux Britanniarum and Contemptible Little Armies. Incidentally, although this may be some way off yet, I believe To the Strongest are being worked on to provide possibilities up to the Seven Years War. Basing would probably mirror the 3x40mm frontage base unit currently appearing in Baroque.