Within a few years I doubt that we will have sculptors like the Perry's and Techno
As soon as we can print a master the modelling will be done on computer. Note I am not talking mass printing of figures, I mean the master. I don't know about materials, so there may be an intermediate stage Printed->mould-> master->current master, but the costs will be more than covered by the savings of not doing it by hand.
Modern 3d programmes allow you to easily modify a figure. Once you have the basic 'T-post' (that is arms outstretched to the sides), then manipulating the 'rig' is easy enough to produce any number of poses. A variety of head gear is easy enough to produce, as would be facial expressions and equipment.
Are you putting them out to grass?
I've seen some 10m scale 3d printed minis, and I'm not greatly impressed. There's a bit of time left yet...
Quote from: Wulf on 30 May 2016, 02:14:50 PM
Are you putting them out to grass?
I've seen some 10m scale 3d printed minis, and I'm not greatly impressed. There's a bit of time left yet...
Captive bolt pistol ... it's the only humane way :)
CAD packages and 3D printing for masters I can see. 3D printing of end products looks an awfully long way off to me. Too crude and too pricey compared to the alternatives.
That said the sci-fi stories of my teen years featured things I now use every day without a second thought. Perhaps the future is nearer than I think!
Quote from: Wulf on 30 May 2016, 02:14:50 PM
Are you putting them out to grass?
I've seen some 10m scale 3d printed minis, and I'm not greatly impressed. There's a bit of time left yet...
To quote Rick Blaine - maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday. Remember the Wright brother's first flight was less than the wing span of a 747. It was less than 20 years from the first CD to being able to record CDs yourself.
I'm working beside people who were born the same year I started here...
What we need, however, isn't technology, it's talent - we already have 3d minis, but they're just not very good. We need 3d sculptors, not 3d tools...
I've seen very nicely sculpted stuff that's been printed on a Envisiontech Perfactory machine (used in the jewellery trade) and you can barely see the build lines. From what I've seen this machine would work perfectly well for 10mm figures. As has been mentioned you just need talented sculptors who can use 3D sculpting programmes.
I'll have to learn that then.....And become talented as well. X_X
At the mo', from what I understand, having something 3D printed is way, way more expensive than having myself and my colleagues push putty about.... (Or make something out of plasticard.)
I'm sure it's more than perfectly feasible.....Though I can see a lot of potential teething problems.....Though those ought to be relatively easy to overcome.
(Be costly to start with though.....And out of range of the pockets of smaller manufacturers).
I think it WILL come....But by then, I reckon I'll be pushing up the daisies. ;)
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Wulf on 30 May 2016, 02:40:04 PM
I'm working beside people who were born the same year I started here...
What we need, however, isn't technology, it's talent - we already have 3d minis, but they're just not very good. We need 3d sculptors, not 3d tools...
I agree with this. It seems that many of the skills required will be quite different.
Also - think Techno,Jr. Meets Windows 14 - a possible need to re-learn skills every two or three years. (Although AI has probably taken over by that point)
Quote from: Techno on 30 May 2016, 03:08:36 PM
(Be costly to start with though.....And out of range of the pockets of smaller manufacturers).
The question is, how many BIG manufacturers of teeny toy soldiers are there? Very few, if any, working in smaller scales.
We already have the skills - watch any video game- 3d modelling is already here. I would imagine that there will soon be POD for 3d, like Shapeways. I'm not disputing the present problems, but many of you will be here on products that were science fiction 20 years ago- tablets/smart phones etc.
Yes we'll still have Techno Juniors, but they won't be sticking knives in themselves professionally (it will be purely for fun). There may be some post print clean up to do, but I'm talking about sculpting from fresh. This isn't like how painting survives in the time after photography- no matter how artistic the scuplts are, they are not the object - they are a means to an end.
From what I know (from reading, not doing) there is a big difference from being able to produce a 3d model that looks good on screen, and one that can actually be 3d printed, and then cast in metal. Stuff like undercuts, minimum resolution, minimum size to be cast etc.
Obviously this will come, but it seems that its not as straight forward as first appears, especially with organic stuff and clothing.
Vehicles seem to be easier with the current generation of software - but even with these it seems difficult to get details right with several test prints.
I think Forbes has hit the nail on the head there.
I would imagine (at the moment) a chap using a computer to produce a 3D master, would almost certainly be able to produce a much 'finer' and better proportioned figure than a traditional designer.
(With the exception of one designer I can think of......And he charges around 8 to 10 times what I charge Leon.....Allegedly.)
Then you'd need the traditional designer (at least at the true scale) to tell him why lots of it would just not work as a metal wargames figure.
"It'll snap there"......"These bits will never come out of the mould"......"No ! People want to actually paint these bits....They won't even be able to see what they're supposed to be."
You'd almost need myself, Clibby or one of our colleagues looking over his/her shoulder all the time.
It's knowing where you have to 'cheat' and 'compromise' that makes up a fair proportion of the sculptor's armoury.
I could write a book on this. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Actually I'll vote for you writing a book on the subject also - it would be interesting to read. You might want to condense all the injury reports into one or two chapters, however - don't want to discourage people :)
The tech, the skills, the printing is already here and works fine. Its the cost that's the issue. To get a print done is not expensive, to get one done that will be suitable for mastering is expensive. That will come down but for now its practical when the economics match up. Bear in mind too that the comparatively low fees available for historical sculpting aren't going to attract many good 3D sculptors who can earn a better living digitally.
The skills for producing a usable print aren't quite the same as just building models in a 3D program, practicalities have to be accounted for, as Techno and others have pointed out; nothing is to scale, you have to know where to exaggerate, you have to produce a "watertight" model (no holes or it won' print), those you see in games generally aren't; its not as simple as moving your T pose around. And you need the "eye" for sculpting, but most 3D artists have that to varying degrees. Again these are issues that are easily addressed.
3D sculpting will simply be one of the tools that sculptors learn. I'm in my thirties so if I want to continue sculpting I need to learn. I've been teaching myself slowly, and got the hang of Sketch-up in a couple of weeks, and was able to produce a tolerable Napoleonic gun.
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/clibinarium/cannon%20de%204%20Finished%201_zpswghakr5s.jpg)
Its been printed in 28mm, and the print was ok, but not great, its taking a fair bit of work to render into something that can be used as a master. Doing it in 10mm isn't as simple as shrinking it as many parts will become to thin; it will need exaggerating in places and that would mean a significant redesign. Pendraken will confirm this as they cast it from the print!
In summary; a very useful tool, probably the dominant (but not exclusive) approach of the future, but its not the Sampo! many people imagine it to be.
Hello
Quote from: Techno on 30 May 2016, 08:40:35 PM
It's knowing where you have to 'cheat' and 'compromise' that makes up a fair proportion of the sculptor's armoury.
Shoosh :-$ :-$ :-$ You're giving away too many secrets ;D ;D ;D
Agree totally. It's the knowledge of what will work, both technically and visually that sets the sculptor apart. Sometimes this entails a bag of broken bits sent back from the mould maker and marking it down to experience :'(
Also look at the differences in body part and equipment ratios between a typical 3d figure and 10mm figure.
(http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l17762-allied-soldier-55029.jpg)(http://www.pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/A24.jpg)
It would almost mean relearning 3d modelling to fit in with casting/visual requirements. Sometimes it's not the details, it's the impression of details that's important :D :D.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
I don't dispute there are differences. I have skytrex 1:200, and Pendraken look positively obese next to them. I suspect the Skytrex is the more accurate - they just don't look as good!
Note I did say 'last generation' - its not going to happen over night. Also point take re mould masters- vent points, robustness etc. But within a decade or two rgw tech will be affordable. I wouldn't be surprised if vehicles are the first- so called 'Hard modelling' (as opposed to soft - people). A computer can already work out shapes from photos, and I would imagine they are the easiest to plan moulds for, and they are set shapes, no poses, no flapping cloaks.
The thing is if Techno or Clib want a second pose, they have to model it anew. Same pose, different period - new model. Once we have a basic maquette in a computer, you always have it. It may well not be perfectly proportioned because of the needs of mould/scale, but it is always there. The computer can work out the vents- that is just physics.
I don't think they will be out of a job, but I don't think they will have successors who specifically do what they do (which is what I mean by the post title). SOMEBODY will be doing it, but they won't be chopping bits off themselves!
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 May 2016, 11:52:15 PM
SOMEBODY will be doing it, but they won't be chopping bits off themselves!
Where's the fun in that? BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! :)
Beer for the Beer god
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 May 2016, 11:52:15 PM
The thing is if Techno or Clib want a second pose, they have to model it anew. Same pose, different period - new model. Once we have a basic maquette in a computer, you always have it. It may well not be perfectly proportioned because of the needs of mould/scale, but it is always there. The computer can work out the vents- that is just physics.
I may well be getting the wrong end of the stick here, LH......But.......
Clib and I already work from a number of differently posed 'dollies'..(Each of our own individual 'style')....I'm sure the other guys do too.
These are relatively quick to make.
For myself, I've just made up a number of 'stick men', with 'finished' bald heads and faces...Bent the legs and torsos to the position I require, and then 'bulked out' each one out very slightly so that it casts a bit more easily.....Then stick those on bases.
I've got a packet of these 'nude dollies' sitting on the desk, ready to be used for any period/uniform.
I DID have to make a smaller selection of poses, in a slightly bigger size, for the Warband figures.....As the fantasy range is slightly, but noticeably, bigger.
If I
completely run out of dollies, before Leon has a chance to cast more up, I pick the green stuff from old masters, and reuse those.
I have to boil them in a saucepan, first...to loosen the greenstuff........and make sure they don't come into contact with the saucepan itself. I tend to put them in to a plastic colander as well, nowadays, 'cos the first time I tried 'cooking' them, I almost let the saucepan boil dry and one of the wee men started melting.
Like I said above...I may have got the wrong end of the stick here....But we
don't make every new figure completely from scratch.
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 01 June 2016, 04:53:49 AM
I've got a packet of these 'nude dollies' sitting on the desk, ready to be used for any period/uniform.
I've got completely the wrong image now... ???
...I hope it's wrong... :o
Wulf
;D ;D ;D ;D
There's no point in putting on anatomical detail on these particular little dudes.
Cheers - Phil
You're not doing the Ancient Brits with Dangly Bits then...
I don't know masses re the masters- I was under the impression you needed a new base figure each time; it sound like you use those dollies up as you do each new model.
The 3D sculpting is coming on in leaps and bounds, but it's currently still an issue of cost for us. I've had a 28mm vehicle designed and printed in 3D at a reasonable cost compared to a traditionally modelled equivalent. Having that same vehicle made in 10mm though would have only reduced the costs by about 10%, making it completely unviable for Pendraken to do. The print quality was excellent, no striations at all, so the technology is there, just not at a price which we can work with.
To be clear, I'm not saying 'now', but as you say - leaps and bounds. 10 years ago you couldn't have got that vehicle.
I am NOT suggesting Dave just pack up, and kick Techno out etc (Orcs, yes, not Techno! :d) . Put it this way, if in 1996 you had said 'HMV etc are doomed, because music/books/stuff will be sent over the internet, and/or delivered by flying robots' people would have made the same sort of arguments. Again, I am not saying mass market stuff, just the one off masters, though no doubt mass market is coming. Once the resolution is dealt with, then you print sprues- makes more sense than individual figures. And then colour printing - the trousers tunic etc are already printed in colour, and the customer adds the details.
I think by 2030 (assuming there hasn't been a new Dark Age) you will be able to buy figure designs the same way you buy pdfs for buildings. I would suggest that what you may well find is a business model where you don't download the design, but you connect your printer to the vendor's server, and his computer prints on your printer- this would allow licences to be sold- a purchase ID that gives you 'y' prints, thus helping avoid piracy.
As I understand it the process from idea to painting table is long and fraught with pit falls. in 2030 this will be avoided - the seller will be paid for the right for you to make his designs- again like PDF buildings.
I'm sure Phill will be gracing us with tales of blade related accidents for some years. I just don't think we will have a Techno replacement in 2030 (only 14 years away!)
Put it this way- You all sit on chairs. When was the last time you heard of someone being employed as a 'bodger' - a skilled job before the word mutated into it's current usage.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 03 June 2016, 01:36:15 AM
Put it this way- You all sit on chairs. When was the last time you heard of someone being employed as a 'bodger' - a skilled job before the word mutated into it's current usage.
8 or 9 days ago, depending on whether this is "today" because I haven't been to bed yet or "tomorrow" because it's after midnight. :)
Friend does woodworking, metalworking and glasswork. The woodworking is largely chair making and he refers to himself as the Blackhall Bodger.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 June 2016, 10:03:08 PM
I was under the impression you needed a new base figure each time; it sound like you use those dollies up as you do each new model.
This is true, LH.
Having said that, quite a few of the green stuff/metal masters don't survive intact, once they've been pressed......So those dollies can happily be reused.
It doesn't
really matter if I recycle an
intact master either.
The master
mould is really more important than the wee men themselves.
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 June 2016, 02:28:18 AM
8 or 9 days ago, depending on whether this is "today" because I haven't been to bed yet or "tomorrow" because it's after midnight. :)
Friend does woodworking, metalworking and glasswork. The woodworking is largely chair making and he refers to himself as the Blackhall Bodger.
There's always one...
And they are usually here.
Well the new generation of injection moulded plastic figure has been around for quite a few years and people are still making and buying metal figures.
I agree some bulk out the army with plastics, but they are fiddly to put together as some are made up of 5 or more parts per figure. I much prefer the weight and feel of metal figures. I also prefer painting metal figures to plastic ones.
I have bought them occasionally for the sake of cost but even this cost is not quite so cut and dried. 12 plastic cavalry are around £22. You can get 12 metal cavalry for around £24. There are still far more ranges and manufacturers making metal figures than plastic.
I for one will have to see a much bigger cost saving than we are getting now.
Actually great sculptors will still be in demand as luxury X luxury good. There will always be people willing to pay a lot for the thing made by human hands. I am not saying many will be able to make money from this, but some will and probably quite a lot. I am a techno-optimist and believe the day will come when we will get many of the things we need, and a lot that we do not, either free or at very cheap prices. But I can still see markets for rare things that are valued for reasons other than need. So we will be seeing future sculptors and probably some genius stuff.