Started my Baroque 10mm project, early days but thought I'd share some WIP pictures - not the best just snapped on my phone but gives the idea.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/with/72157667670885881
Those are a bit good!
Very pretty!
Top tip, large mdf bases warp. To stop the 'curl up', score the underside and paint with diluted PVA glue. ;)
Looking really good ! 8)
Cheers - Phil
Very nice work 8)
Impressive looking units. A group of those are going to look the business.
just had a look through your albums, like the chaps, the table and especially your games room.
As with your other projects I quite admire the painting. You've said elsewhere that you use 120x40mm basing and I must say that is going to look really good for ECW. I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves. I notice that the white regiments appear to have an ensign next to the drummer but red has a pikeman (not that they can't be both). But assume that's where the flags are going?
Quote from: Luddite on 02 May 2016, 09:55:33 AM
Very pretty!
Top tip, large mdf bases warp. To stop the 'curl up', score the underside and paint with diluted PVA glue. ;)
Thanks,
I've heard of this but must say I've never had the problem - I have a load of 6" square 6mm terrain on MDF and haven't had any issues in the last 10 years.
That said I don't saturate my bases when adding sand/grit and foliage, maybe that's the key - I also don't paint them. . .
Quote from: d_Guy on 02 May 2016, 12:09:56 PM
As with your other projects I quite admire the painting. You've said elsewhere that you use 120x40mm basing and I must say that is going to look really good for ECW. I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves. I notice that the white regiments appear to have an ensign next to the drummer but red has a pikeman (not that they can't be both). But assume that's where the flags are going?
Thanks D_Guy - all the info on the units is in the description underneath the photos - must be a bad design choice by Flickr because no one is seeing it :o I list the codes, numbers and base sizes there.
All the units have standard bearers (same figure from EC05) - next to the drummer, just waiting on Leon for the flags. The front rank of the pike block (L-R) is Pike, Drum, Standard, Pike - I ummed and arred about doing the drum and flag the other way round so you could see the drum more easily but that would have meant the flag would look off-centre and the flag is the main visual thing on the table.
Quote from: Subedai on 02 May 2016, 11:58:11 AM
just had a look through your albums, like the chaps, the table and especially your games room.
Ah yes 25 square metres of dedicate gaming space - I need to update those pictures as it has two tables and is fully shelved and stocked now (although the beer fridge and wine cooler need a re-stock)
5 years of landscaping and construction hard-labour weekends but well worth it in the end :D
Very nice figures, Zippee. Also, interesting to read about sealing the bases (or not as the case may be). I've only started using pre-cut mdf bases in recent times and, whilst no where as large as the ones used or proposed below, my instinct is to seal them with paint anyway.
Quote from: d_Guy on 02 May 2016, 12:09:56 PM
I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves.
[Sorry to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons, here.] Before I sold my Pike & Shot collection (many years ago), I often deployed Pike elements that were deeper than the musket sleeves. Indeed, many rules (e.g., DBR) allow you to do so plus we often see war-games units on the table top similarly deployed.
However, now I am not sure that the Pike blocks in the ECW and later wars of Louis XIV were actually deeper than the musket sleeves.
Does anyone have any contemporary prints showing Pike blocks with a greater depth than the Shot elements? (this is not a challenge, by the way - I seriously don't know the answer). Somewhere buried in the link below, there is even an illustration or description of Pike & Shot arrayed in 'Swedish Brigade' order with pikemen arrayed in ranks of only 5 deep (the Shot still being in ranks of 6 deep - Dutch Brigade being, of course, 8 deep). The reason given for 5 ranks is that any deeper, even 6 ranks, would mean that the rearmost ranks could only serve as back-up since the distance between ranks is usually a metre and pikes are not usually longer than six metres .....
http://syler.com/drillDemo/menu.html (http://syler.com/drillDemo/menu.html)
p.s. If this link looks familiar to some of you, this was posted by me in November 2015. In the same thread, Rob also provided the following link which may also be of general interest to Pike & Shot fans. http://forum.milua.org/archive/TactiqueUk.htm (http://forum.milua.org/archive/TactiqueUk.htm)
Wow, that games room's a good size.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 02 May 2016, 03:30:29 PM
Very nice figures, Zippee. Also, interesting to read about sealing the bases (or not as the case may be). I've only started using pre-cut mdf bases in recent times and, whilst no where as large as the ones used or proposed below, my instinct is to seal them with paint anyway.
[Sorry to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons, here.] Before I sold my Pike & Shot collection (many years ago), I often deployed Pike elements that were deeper than the musket sleeves. Indeed, many rules (e.g., DBR) allow you to do so plus we often see war-games units on the table top similarly deployed.
However, now I am not sure that the Pike blocks in the ECW and later wars of Louis XIV were actually deeper than the musket sleeves.
Thanks Westie,
Well my units are meant to be representational not 100% authentic. I assume that there was no consistent standard in the ECW, with the vagaries of numbers and equipment meaning battalia were deployed as available rather than to some perfect plan. Also there is no guarantee that the pikes are in the centre, it very much depends on how the battalia is deployed at the moment. However this is the classic look and the one I have gone for.
It's worth pointing out that these are (in Baroque terms) Early Pike & Musket bases, good for 1610 to 1660 or thereabouts. Prior to that you have Early Tercio (120mm x 120mm) and Late Tercio (120mm x 80mm) and afterwards Late Pike & Musket (120mm x 40mm) which have considerably fewer pikes on them - in my scheme 1660+ units will have a small pike centre of 4 pikes and 3 command with large wings of 28 shot. This will make them look markedly different from the Early period ones.
By comparison Early Tercios have 3 command, 46 pikes and 48 shot in 4 sleeves; Late Tercios 3 command, 28 pike and 30 shot in 2 sleeves. Oh and Pike blocks for late Swiss/Landsknecht types with 6 command, 12 halberd, 116 pikes and 10 sword/front rank types on a 120mm square)
The whole period is one of transition so I don't think we can be too pedantic about dates, especially not in the deployment and equipment of troops in the decidedly amateur armies of the ECW :D
@Zippee - I was using my iPad to look at your pics so just enlarged them on my screen IF you touch-open them all your notes appear (just tried). So NOT a Flckr problem :)
@Westie et. al. I have no idea either! The references you provided are excellent and I have looked through them before. I like 16th, 17thc warefare because of the transition to fire power and all the formations that were tried. I think that most contemporary "bird's eye" illustrations certainly suggest equal (or near equal) depth of musket sleeves and pike blocks AND I think in wargaming they are generally portrayed that way (in fact that's the way I do it).
All that aside I have not solved the problem of how the pikes protected the muskets. To me the deeper pike block suggests (maybe) that the musketeers could more easily "roll under" (sorry that's Napoleonic) the pikes or interleaved with them. In Zippee's formation we could simply argue that the pikes have doubled their ranks in preparation for defending against horse :)
And as I was writing Zippee has now answered and brought in the considerations for Baroque.
What I really really want to know is what "push of pike" means! Short of some postings at TMP not sure there is a firm answer :)
Good to find out more about Baroque's basing conventions, Zippee. What also comes out is that it looks like you can arrange as many of your wee men on the base as and how you want. Hopefully I wasn't being pedantic (but then again having some level of interest in detail - different from individual to individual - goes with the hobby. In fact, one might say one man's pedantic is another man's marvellously authentic!). But, as Zippee says, it is a period of transition and so helluva difficult for us to replicate "the look" on the table. My observation was made simply to point out that if we are looking for some level of authenticity in our Pike & Shot units, we might not have to paint as many Pike as we thought! :)
Of course, I've now found the link with 5 rank deep pike! #-o
http://www.syler.com/Breitenfeld/infantry/SwedeBrigade.htm (http://www.syler.com/Breitenfeld/infantry/SwedeBrigade.htm)
Quote from: Leman on 02 May 2016, 03:36:21 PM
Wow, that games room's a good size.
As it seems popular I just popped down and took a quick video - it's on Flickr here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/72157633554453675/with/9641167454/
and yes all those really useful boxes are full of figures (painted ones :o)
:D
Did anyone else hear an angelic choir when looking at Zippee's set-up or was it just me? O:-) O:-) O:-)
Quote from: Westmarcher on 02 May 2016, 04:39:04 PM
Good to find out more about Baroque's basing conventions, Zippee. What also comes out is that it looks like you can arrange as many of your wee men on the base as and how you want. Hopefully I wasn't being pedantic
For those that are interested this is the basing schema for Baroque - and the 10mm numbers I'm using (this uses the 15mm basing recommendations, 28mm bases are 180mm wide and deeper of course). In Baroque (and Impetus for that matter) the only thing that really matters is width, depth has very marginal impact on the game. The number and disposition of figures on the bases is also utterly at the whim of the player - most try and generate diorama style bases. That said, all Impetus bases are effectively 4 DBx/FoG style bases - Baroque is generally 6 (3 for mounted), so really a baroque base is a FoG battlegroup.
Frontage Depth Figures
Gallopers (GA) 120mm x 40mm 13 (3 cmd, 10 gallopers in single wave)
Trotters (TR) 120mm x 40mm 15 (3 cmd, 12 trotters in single rank)
Reiters (RE) 120mm x 40mm 18 (3 cmd, 15 reiters in double rank)
Reiters (RE) 120mm x 80mm 36 (3 cmd, 33 reiters in quadruple rank) - Massed
Sipahi (SP) 120mm x 40mm 13 (3 cmd, 10 sipahi in single wave)
Light Horse (CL) 120mm x 40mm 8 (8 dispersed light horse)
(Massed Horse units should have double the depth)
Pike Blocks (PK) 120mm x 120mm 144 (6 cmd, 12 halberd, 116 pike, 10 sword)
Early Tercio (ETE) 120mm x 120mm 97 (3 cmd, 46 pike, 48 shot in 4 sleeves)
Late Tercio (LTE) 120mm x 80mm 61 (3 cmd, 28 pike, 30 shot in 2 sleeves)
Early Pike & Musket (EPM) 120mm x 40mm 41 (3 cmd, 14 pike, 24 shot in 2 sleeves)
Late Pike & Musket (LPM) 120mm x 40mm 35 (3 cmd, 4 pike, 28 shot in 2 wings)
Musket (T) 120mm x 40mm 33 (3 cmd, 30 shot in a firing line)
Irregulars (WB) 120mm x 40mm 48 (3 cmd, 45 warriors)
Skirmishers (S) 120mm x 40mm 16 (16 shot in a skirmish line)
Dragoons (DR) 120mm x 40mm 24 (24 dragoons in a firing line)
(Dragoons can be up to 60mm depth if horse-holders and horses depicted)
Artillery (ART) 40mm x 40mm 4 (1 piece plus crew)
Baggage (BAG) 160mm x 80mm X Baggage Scene
( Baggage Composed of two 80mm x 80mm bases)
C-in-C 40mm Diameter 3 or 4 Vignette
CMDR 20mm Diameter 1 or 2 Vignette
CAS 20mm Diameter 1 Marker
And no concerns for pedantry from me - that would be hypocritical :D And I can't stand hypocrites!
It's just that ECW and Renaissance in general just isn't one of those areas that kicks of my pedantry gene.
OK. Think I've got it. :-bd
[must remember now ..... Baroque ..... never mind the depth, feel the width .... never mind the depth .... ] :)
Quote from: Luddite on 02 May 2016, 09:55:33 AM
Very pretty!
Top tip, large mdf bases warp. To stop the 'curl up', score the underside and paint with diluted PVA glue. ;)
Right I'm officially blaming you as you brought it up >:(
Never had this happen before - must be due to long thin bases :(
Only the first test base though - the remainder have been duly scored and PVA'd
So thanks for the tip [belatedly] ;)
I'm going for units made up of three 4omm bases to avoid this problem. Solve the warp problem Mr.Data.
So Jean-Luc Picard goes into the Singer shop to complain about his poor quality machine, "Make it sew!"
Well - you had to know this was coming
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg)
Quote from: Leman on 04 May 2016, 05:32:43 PM
I'm going for units made up of three 4omm bases to avoid this problem.
I think that will be a popular methodology far many reasons - however having made the change from DBX basing to Impetus basing (no small undertaking) the ease of play factor is so much better that I personally wouldn't consider it. For me it would seem a big step backwards.
The good news being that so far the tip has paid off, the slightly warped test base has levelled out and the others are looking OK. Will no for sure by the weekend when I'll post more WIP pictures.
Just need Leon to crank the old casting mill a bit faster :D
As for the rest I have no comment, but I think I'd look like Cpt Picard feels when I realised the SFA rules didn't allow me to space Mr Crusher
Not a lot of progress this week - real life issues intervening.
but I have mad some progress, including basing up the first two units - there are forlorn hopes, dragoons and various odds and sods on the workbench but I thought I'd upload a couple of nearly finished WIP images
https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/72157667670885881
Looking good :)
Coming along nicely Zippee.
Deleted Repeat post
Looking really good. 8)
Cheers - Phil.
So, in order to make my Louis XIV figs pedantically appropriate I am in luck. I can make nice 120x40 base trays for my 30x30 stands. Mdf and strips of 5mm triangular strips or some such stuff for the edges. That should do it, I suppose.
And now back to painting coulinarily inspired regiments. Brie and Beaujolais are on the table as we speak.
Cheers,
Aksu
:-bd =D> :-bd
Still awesome!
Another week, another update - some dragoons and skirmishers painted and based.
Still waiting on the main order, beginning to fear I'll run out of trial order figures before they arrive.
Note still waiting on flags and final varnish - so apologies for the slightly shiny photo finish :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/72157667670885881
Looking great!
Just catching up with your photos again - very nice looking. The finished bases really give a feel for the Baroque system. I wish I had another person within 150 miles to play Baroque - I would likely switch my basing. As it is I'm stuck with generally asymmetric battles using strange unit compositions assembled in sabots. Still Baroque is exceeding my expectations - a very enjoyable and clean system
Looking damn fine, that man !
Cheers - Phil
Wot he said