I'm considering a new project, Sudan at the end of the 19th century :-\
Can anyone point me at any good online sources?
At the moment I'm looking for orders of battle, including numbers and information of weapons used, particularly rifles types.
I assume all the British used Martini Henry rifles or similar but what about the Egyptians, Sudanese and Mahdi's forces...
Egyptians were using the Remington 0.433 rolling block rifle until 1885. The Mhadists got an awful lot of them after the the early Egyptian defeats. They also captured a lot of Krupp artillery and other nasty stuff.
As for online resources I am away South until Friday so can't access my links back home. What Order of battle are you after?
Thanks for the prompt response Maenoferren
So the Remington 0.433 rolling block rifle was a cartridge weapon with similar performance to the Martini Henry, was anyone still using muzzle loaded weapons?
I'm at the very beginning of this potential project so I'm not sure what I need ;)
I'm looking for orders of battles to get a feel for the size of the "typical" battles and also to confirm the typical strengths of units
My initial thoughts are to use Volley & Bayonet at the Battalion scale (each stand being a battalion 400-600 men and larger Mahdist units of 600-1200 men)
I'm attracted by the asymmetrical forces and the variety of troop types within each side :-\
I'm open to suggestions for other Colonial conflicts as well
Regarding other conflicts I prefer the Sudan to say the Zulu wars as for me there are lots of different ' native' troop types. Go strong into the desert ( Col Snook the Perry book) has orders for battle fro the early battles up to the fall of Khartoum. Snook's 'Beyond the Reach of Empire looks at the desert column battles. Also the Black Powder supplement gives most battles too.
I have very similar thoughts about the Zulu wars, the Zulu's would be very one dimensional
The terrain for the Afghan wars would be more challenging than Sudan
I'm looking for Internet resources until I have made up my mind
This thread aroused my curiosity, I have just read about the battle of Omdurman. My conclusion is that you will need a dustpan and brush to remove the casualties :(
Cheers
Ian
Omdurman was a pretty one sided affair with the odd exception. Hector Macdonald's Sudanese were hard pressed and he had to constantly reposition them. But at the end of the day the use of artillery opening fire at over a mile and a half followed by Maxim fire and hollow point bullets meant things would never end well for the Ansar.
As one eyewitness put it "They could never get near and they refused to hold back. ... It was not a battle but an execution."
One of the reasons I tend to stick to the earlier period.
That's the period of the war that interests me, small regular forces trying to hold off or force their way through larger irregular forces :-\
I am going to run an imaginary attempt to relieve Khartoum from Suakin to Berberin 1885. Lt. Col Stewart very kindly left information on distances, where the wells were and other useful things. Interestingly enough Wolsey had this information but decided on the longer and, to be honest, the wrong route.
The BBB Yahoo group has some people who've done scenarios for the Sudan, IIRC? Might be a good starting place for ideas!
When I did the whole nine yards as a games-mastered campaign a while ago, Omdurman was a welcome morale-booster for the British-Egyptian player, who never got near Khartoum in the earlier phase.
Science versus Pluck is currently available from Wargame Vault at a reasonable price. It is also written for small scale figures and focuses on desert columns. An interesting innovation is that you set up your column on table, and then instead of moving it forward you move the terrain past it. At some point the Fuzzies will appear and it then plays like a normal game.
Should probably mention Peter Pig's "Patrols in the Sudan" as well - it's aimed at about the level of SvsP (I think), a column's worth of troops in an irregular environment with much need for scouting and sense :D
We have had a fair few goes at SvP and I do like them. They worked quite well. We even had Dervish breaking and running down the face of a square.
Hello Paulr and Leman
Quote from: Leman on 30 March 2016, 02:44:31 PM
Science versus Pluck is currently available from Wargame Vault at a reasonable price. It is also written for small scale figures and focuses on desert columns. An interesting innovation is that you set up your column on table, and then instead of moving it forward you move the terrain past it. At some point the Fuzzies will appear and it then plays like a normal game.
There is a version available for free download at http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Science_Vs_Pluck if you'd like to 'suck it and see' :D. Pony Wars style game.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
One thing if you want a feel for the period then have a look at Churchill's "The River War". It does have some oob's if I recall correctly? (My copy is in the loft) Just remember that at this stage he was "a young man on the make". I always like the reference to his WW1 history by someone I'm too lazy to google. "Winston has written a big book about himself and called it 'The World Crisis'!"
Thanks Grumpy et al
Our group plays quite a bit of Volley & Bayonet and a friend of a friend down in Christchurch has developed a V&B variant for the Sudan so we will probably give that a bash before perhaps incorporating some parts of the other V&B Sudan variations floating around.
We already play about 8 different rule sets and 15-20 periods/variants :o
So would prefer not to add another rule set if we can avoid it ;)
I came across an OoB for El Teb and Tamai and could probably do those with about 400 figures but there weren't any Egyptians or Madhist cavalry or ...
Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures :o Not really a side project any more :-[ :-S
The battle of Ginnis is perhaps more the sort of battle I'm looking at; 6-10 battalions of various sorts in two Brigades with a small brigade of cavalry and supporting machine guns and artillery.
Any OoBs for this or similar battle would be of real interest.
Also any information on the mix of Mahdist forces would be useful, most of the info I have found so far talks in suspiciously round total numbers not even breaking down foot, mounted or guns.
I am back home drop me a PM and I will sort you some OOB's out
Quote from: paulr on 31 March 2016, 02:43:05 AM
Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures :o Not really a side project any more :-[ :-S
I know that feeling, I bought a few figures from the LoA range so I could do the battle of Vienna, nearly 4000 figures later... :o
Cheers
Ian
A couple of lists of the Mahdist oob
For Mahdist forces for Abu Klea...
Berber contingent:
250 horse + 1750 foot
Plus 60 'turncoat' Egyptian riflemen
Metemmeh contingent
2000 foot
Main force
4-6000 of which 400 were rifles.
For Abu Kru:
7-8000 of which up to 1000 could have been cavalry. 5 Baqqara emirs were killed in the battle.
The problem with the Mahdist numbers is that they seem to be guesswork. In the various reports or letters the numbers vary for example after Ginnis there seems to be no official despatches relating to this. Wingate gives the casualties as 500 killed and 300 wounded, but Haggard states the casualty claims were too high (but then again he normally give different figures to the official ones) but figures on the Mahdist forces on the frontier range from 4000 to 6000. They had both rifles and at least 5 cannon.
General Butler commanded the 1st Brigade with the 1st Berkshires, the West Kents, the 2nd Durham Light Infantry, one camel battery (six guns) Egyptian artillery, with a sixty-man escort from the 3rd Egyptians, and the 11th Company R.E. Colonel Huyshe,who commanded the Berkshires at Tofrek, commanded the 2nd Brigade with the Yorkshire Regiment, six companies of the Cameron Highlanders, two companies (152 men) of the IXth Sudanese, 278 men of the 1st Egyptians, the 3rd Company (39 men) of the Egyptian Camel Corps, a detachment of the British Camel Corps (the last time such a unit appeared in the Sudan), one mule battery (screw guns) of the 2nd battery, 1st Brigade, South Irish Division R.A., and two Gardner guns. ort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).
The mounted troops under Colonel Blake consisted of the 1st Company (11 men) Egyptian Camel Corps, one company Mounted Infantry (referred to in one dispatch as the Royal Highlanders Mounted Infantry), the 20th Hussars, and one squadron ~57 men) of the Egyptian cavalry. Two companies of the IXth Sudanese were left in Barrow's zariba opposite Fort Kosha on the west bank, 200 men of the 3rd Egyptians were at Mograka Fort, one company of the Camerons in Kosha fort and one company Camerons with one Krupp gun in the redoubt outside the fort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).
The Durham's had left their red coats in Cairo so we're in khaki.
I
Thanks for the help Maenoferren, PM sent ;)
My thinking now is to get a couple of representative forces which will hopefully not require too many figures.
The Imperial forces will need; Guards, Highlanders, British line (some in grey, khaki & one in red), Naval troops, Egyptian, Sudanese, British cavalry, Egyptian cavalry, Camels, Gatling guns, screw guns, normal guns [I better stop] Indain infantry, Bengal lancers, ...
What I am not so sure of is what would be a representative mix for Mahdists; warriors, rifle infantry, cavalry, camels, artillery, ...
I see there are multiple 'tribes', did they fight together or were they regional :-\
A couple of Imperial Infantry Brigades and a Cavalry Brigade seems a reasonable force, with enough extras to allow for a variety of forces.
If I get enough Mahdists to attack them that will be more than enough if they are on the defensive.
No Post Office Volunteers in blue?
Quote from: Leman on 31 March 2016, 08:09:14 PM
No Post Office Volunteers in blue?
I was tempted by the New South Wales Contingent but they didn't see much action ;) ;D
As was mentioned on another thread it is all about the variety of 'toys' on the table ;)
Throw them into the mix anyway - it is a game after all rather than a re-enactment.
I have a mix of grey, khaki and red..? Just for the look of the thing The Marines are in grey with pipe clayed leather and helmet cover. Some have black webbing, some khaki etc.
Regarding the tribes if we take the Berber contingent above it was made up of:
Ababda, Bisharin and Barabra tribes. Each would be led by their own emir in this case: Abu AL Majid Nasr AL Din Abu l-kailak who in turn was under command of the 'general' ( for want of a better word) Musa Wad Hilu (apologies for the lack of squigles over the different letters)
My different forces are on the painting forum ( I have far too many Dervish horse - but, as I ride I thought what the heck :) )
My progress can be found here:)
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9952.0.html
Thanks Maenoferren, I had a good look at that thread last night on the train home, very useful :)
This thread has got me all excited, and I could be found this morning starting to print out my copy of Science v. Pluck. But, should I go 6 or 10 (10 has naval brigade but 6 has Gardner guns).
What about 2nd El teb as a starting point? 2 infantry brigades plus a cavalry brigade with independent commands of Naval brigade Gardner guns, royal artillery and engineers against 6-8000 Dervish with artillery add in imaginary cavalry and a pretty good starting force.
Leman I am not sure which version I have as I didn't bother printing the front cover :)
I have done 15mm for the officers ( when things go wrong)
;D ;D ;D
Mine is 3rd edition, with a covering note saying a fourth is on the way, but that was a couple of years ago, so I'll just stick with the 3rd.
I got mine from Wargames vault so it is probably the same one.
Quote from: Maenoferren on 01 April 2016, 06:34:12 PM
What about 2nd El teb as a starting point? 2 infantry brigades plus a cavalry brigade with independent commands of Naval brigade Gardner guns, royal artillery and engineers against 6-8000 Dervish with artillery add in imaginary cavalry and a pretty good starting force.
That is the sort of "typical" forces I'm looking for :)
Given the cost of postage to NZ I try and do one order projects ...I did say try ;)
So I will want to include some extras that I can sub in to get some variety, Guards, Camels and Egyptians being the obvious candidates for the British
Cavalry and Camels for the Mahdists...
Inspired by your pictures I did some calculating last night and came up with 924 figures :o
That includes a couple of Bengal infantry battalions and a unit of Bengal Lancers and about 12,000 Mahdist
How widely were the Bengals involved, nice to have the variety but I could save over 70 figures if I drop them
The 15th Ludhiana Sikhs battle of Tofrek 1885 and Suakin 1888
28th Bombay Infantry as above ( if I remember correctly some of these chaps broke and ran at Tofrek causing a bit of a hole. The Sikhs and the Berkshires held firm. A squadron of the lancers heard firing and advanced. Seeing a maelstrom of men and baggage animals fleeing towards them went into extended order to allow them through and then counter charged the pursuing Dervish.
9th Bengal lancers basically Feb to June 1885. 150 officers and men (3rd Squadron) were ordered to remain in Suakin until November 1885. So if you are doing 1884 you won't need them.
Hope that helps :)
It wasn't the 28th, it was 17th Bengal I got North and South of the Zeriba muddled up, but to be fair the cavalry evading the Dervish rode straight through them followed by 2000 plus enemy warriors, a couple of ragged volleys isn't going to stop that lot.
Thanks again for all the help :)
What size bases did you use, 40x20mm?
Did you consider RT7 Turkish Bashi-bazook for your Bbashi-bazook? Which ACW Zouaves did you use, old RM15 Zouave, battle line or new ACW21 Zouaves in turban?
This is all good stuff - keep it coming. I think I am coming down on the side of 10mm.
Quote from: paulr on 01 April 2016, 11:53:02 PM
Thanks again for all the help :)
What size bases did you use, 40x20mm?
Did you consider RT7 Turkish Bashi-bazook for your Bbashi-bazook? Which ACW Zouaves did you use, old RM15 Zouave, battle line or new ACW21 Zouaves in turban?
40x20 for infantry and 40x30 for everything else.
I hadn't realised there was RT7 which is why I went for AC21.
I must get my Egyptian cavalry done. I didn't go for Egyptian artillery and as I am doing the earlier period I am not going to bother converting any Egyptian camel corps.
Paul, sent you a PM I think... Can't see any evidence of it being sent though. Give me a shout if it doesn't appear.
Quote from: Maenoferren on 04 April 2016, 09:21:05 PM
Paul, sent you a PM I think... Can't see any evidence of it being sent though. Give me a shout if it doesn't appear.
Shout, no evidence of PM arriving :(
I did however get a rather useful email from you ;)
Many thanks
Doh! No wonder the PM didn't appear. Thanks for letting me know. :)
No problem :) ;D
If you're just getting into Sudan gaming, the early period is definitely more fun, more of a challenge for the Imperial forces and offer a greater variety of troop types and uniforms.
Graham's Suakin Field Force (El Teb 2 etc) is a good basis for a typical British expedition. Once you've been lured in, 'Go Strong into the Desert' (Snook) is a great introduction, and the 2 Sudan Source Books produced by TVAG contain a wealth of information, including every orbat you're likely to need.
AND you get to use the thin red line one last time.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 April 2016, 10:18:14 AM
AND you get to use the thin red line one last time.
But not with 2nd Durham's who left theirs in Cairo :(
Which is why I have one battalion in red and one highland in red ( just for the look of the thing) :)
I don't use them anyway. The 54th Hampshire and the 33rd Sussex are in unimpeachable scarlet. I defy anyone to prove that they were in khaki.
Supposedly the New Zealand troops arrived in Scarlet into Suakin, but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it. They were cheered down the gang plank by the British troops who were in grey or khaki.
I'm aware of a New South Wales contingent that arrived in red tunics and blue trousers. I didn't know there were any New Zealanders involved :-\
Quote from: paulr on 09 April 2016, 12:34:44 AM
I'm aware of a New South Wales contingent that arrived in red tunics and blue trousers. I didn't know there were any New Zealanders involved :-\
My bad, I meant New South Wales....
😚
Quote from: Maenoferren on 09 April 2016, 01:04:07 PM
My bad, I meant New South Wales....
😚
They're from the WEST Island ;) ;D ;D ;D
I just purchased the armchair general's books as PDF.
They cover 1883-1885 in the first volume and 1886 -1899 in the second a good selection of maps, illustrations and OOB.
Wish I'd done that. I have Volume 1 on Kindle and it's a right dog's breakfast, with about 20% of the illustrations and maps being split up into horizontal strips by the text.
Quote from: Leman on 16 April 2016, 06:00:09 AM
Wish I'd done that. I have Volume 1 on Kindle and it's a right dog's breakfast, with about 20% of the illustrations and maps being split up into horizontal strips by the text.
I feel your pain! I have something similar on mine...
For some random reason I was looking up the various machine guns of the wars. I got to Gatling and on Wikipedia it places them as being used in various wars and conflicts. The Anglo Egyptian war is not mentioned(it does, however, mention it in the main text)... Strangely enough I was just looking at some of the sketches from the Sudan and the Gatling appears in a number of them, Baker lost some in his defeat and these were used in El Teb against the British. It makes on wonder how much damage would have been done against the Square if they hadn't been silenced along with the other heavy ordnance.