It seems that several of you are following developments on the Impetus:Baroque release..
I saw their blog notice that Baroque (ENG) would ship to pre-orderers on March 14, 2016 but have found no way to order it.
I emailed D&P about four days ago but have not recieved a reply. Their website seems to be in flux at the moment.
So - does anyone know how to go about getting a copy?
Also - I have the free copies of Impetus Basic and Baroque Basic. Is it likely that I will have to buy anything other than Baroque to make the system work!
Incidentally I have noticed elsewhere that folks seem to be getting testy about Baroque. Not sure if this has to do with the glacial speed of the release or the rehashing of same. So - I really am not trying to irritate - I apologize if I do.
We forum members were given the opportunity to register for a pre-order.
We just received the payment request for that - here is the text of that email of 7th March:
Quote
Hello,
if you receive this e-mail it is because you have pre-ordered a copy (or more) of Baroque.
I will go to retire the books from the printers the next week-end and start shipping from Monday 14th.
To keep things faster, I have created a page with paypal links to buy the rules reserved for pre-orders. Just choose the geographic area were you are from to get the right price (that includes shipping).
If you need more than one copy, just buy again on the same button.
The page will be removed by the end of the month.
To buy the rules go to this link:
http://dadiepiombo.it/baroque-po.html
For any questions just drop me a line
Best regards
Lorenzo Sartori
D&P
To email Lorenzo directly use losart@libero.it
I expect the real order page will be up some time soon as today is the 14th !!!!!!!!!
Nice to know this is just around the corner. Stayed off the forum so had lost track of when it's due out. Does anyone know if there will be a UK distributer?
And just posted on the forum at 16:27
http://impetus.ativiforum.com/t746-baroque-released
Quote
Not time yet to updated the website (something that I plan to do tomorrow) but Baroque is officially out. First pre-orders shipped this morning. Other will follow tomorrow.
North Star, Caliver and (in Germany) Worean will have the rules in stock very soon.
So I have something to read for the weekend ;D
[it's like they woz answering Nosher before he (it?) asked]
Nice one. Northstar it is. Top service
Zippee,
Thanks! I hadn't thought to join the Impetus forum. Will probably wait now for their order site to have Baroque up ( or one of the rules companies in the states). Once you've had a chance to look at the full rules maybe you can advise on the need to buy other Impetus rules to use Baroque? ( you did say you would be reading this weekend :D)
No worries, will report back. ;D
To the best of my knowledge (and I'd be shocked if this is wrong) but Baroque are a full stand alone product - you don't need Ancients Impetus to play them.
The development sets tend to be just enough to let you test mechanics using the Impetus rules as a core - Baroque is no longer a development set of mechanics.
My only irritation is that the official basing changes size from Impetus - there's a number of troops that cross the period divide! I strongly suspect I'll continue to use Impetus bases but we'll see.
Quote from: Zippee on 14 March 2016, 08:02:49 PM
My only irritation is that the official basing changes size from Impetus - there's a number of troops that cross the period divide! I strongly suspect I'll continue to use Impetus bases but we'll see.
You really have to wonder what drives a design decision like that :o 8-}
Just to report that it has arrived - first impressions are good.
No time to read as tonight is D&D and tomorrow is my NEBOSH exam so I'm a bit pushed for reading time :D
Will report back later.
Thanks for the update Zippee - I did hear from D&P just a bit ago and my copy is now ordered - which means maybe two weeks yet.
Will await with interest your report. Incidently D&D and NEBOSH in the same 12 hour period requires a suppleness of mind I no longer possess. Good luck!
Quote from: d_Guy on 17 March 2016, 08:12:31 PM
Thanks for the update Zippee - I did hear from D&P just a bit ago and my copy is now ordered - which means maybe two weeks yet.
Will await with interest your report. Incidently D&D and NEBOSH in the same 12 hour period requires a suppleness of mind I no longer possess. Good luck!
Ha - I passed the exam but failed to kill any party members, so 50/50 :)
I've managed a skim read - hope to get a game in this Thursday.
I can confirm they're a stand alone set, very nicely produced, soft back spiral bound in full colour. The Italian-English language is somewhat improved over Impetus but still has the odd paragraph/sentence that makes the eyebrows rise until you turn it around and change the tense 8)
The basing scheme as recommended is different from Impetus, but has a built in flexibility, including breaking the big bases down into 3 smaller ones. The main thing being that the Measurement Unit has changed from being 1cm to being half a unit-base width, so whatever width bases you use, it's easy to rescale the game. That said as the rules are 1550 to 1700 there is less overlap with Impetus than one might think - too used to WRG rules splitting at 1485 I guess, all the early pike stuff and Italian Wars is in Impetus not Baroque. No idea off the cuff what that means for oriental/Asian armies though, I suspect much more overlap as a sipahi is a sipahi. . .
Rules wise there are some significant changes, for instance units are Fresh until VBU is reduced to half and Exhausted if less than half :-\
Reaction status has kind of replaced opportunity which essentially means any unit may react during the opponents turn but only once. So you record units that have reacted rather than test to go on opportunity. Subtle shift can't say how that changes the game without playing - obviously it makes reactions more likely though. Only specific reactions are available vs specified actions and exhausted units can't react.
Movement is pretty similar - except we now have Fast and Slow versions of troop types in the mix.
Charges have incorporated much of the advanced impetus terminology including potential charges et al
Firing is also familiar but there are far fewer missile types - musket, arquebus, bow, horse pistol/carbine plus 5 grades of artillery. Ranges and values change but the method is the same - opportunity fire remains and defensive fire is introduced along with reiter caracole - essentially shooting is better defined than in Impetus which is good as more units will be shooting :-\
Melee and the cohesion test look very familiar but re-edited and cleaned up a bit. The proof will be in the playing.
There are several "Special Unit Characteristics" available, such as "Iron Officers"; "Master Gunner"; "Recruits"; "Agitators & Preachers" and "Prostitutes" to name a few - make of that list what you will ;D
There are also special rules for regimental guns, lances, cuirass, salvo and caracole, etc.
There are 7 basic sample army lists included, more beta lists on the website and "official lists" are promised in a future supplement (the back cover says "special supplements"):
TYW German Catholic 1618-1632
TYW Swedish 1630-1634
ECW Royalist 1642-1643
ECW Parliamentarian 1642-1644
Ottoman Turk 1645-1700
Later Imperialist 1649-1700
Later Polish 1632-1700
And 4 pages of QRS 2 covering setup and terrain, 2 covering game mechanics
Hope that's useful, much is the same, much is subtly different, all looks good, can't wait to get the figures out :D
Thanks for that review, I hope to get a copy of those rules soon and I like what I read in your review.
I think one of the best aspects of Baroque is the dumping of opportunity. It was such a pain in Impetus that I have dumped it there as well and use the Baroque system for reaction.
Thanks for the excellent first reaction and overview of Baroque, particularly for confirming that it is a self-contained system.
I use 1"X1" base for everything which generally allows me to adapt to most systems by using movement trays and fiddling with distances.
Presumably this will work with Baroque (based on what I saw in Basic Baroque).
Untested reaction sounds plausible.
Thanks for mentioning the Army Lists - no Covenanters or Irish Confedrates then? :)
I should have my copy soon so anxious to try them also.
Still no sign of it on Northstar website
Quote from: Nosher on 22 March 2016, 04:05:39 PM
Still no sign of it on Northstar website
Thanks to the link in Zippee's first post in this thread I was able to pre-order Baroque and then buy it direct (with an immediate response ahead of the response to the email I had sent D&P). Apparently the pre-order offer will remain in place until the end of March. Possibly it will not go to other distributors until April. And, having now just checked the mail, my copy has arrived!
Very quick response!
Quote from: d_Guy on 22 March 2016, 04:37:40 PM
Thanks to the link in Zippee's first post in this thread I was able to pre-order Baroque and then buy it direct (with an immediate response ahead of the response to the email I had sent D&P). Apparently the pre-order offer will remain in place until the end of March. Possibly it will not go to other distributors until April. And, having now just checked the mail, my copy has arrived!
Very quick response!
I went to their website, went to the shop, and bought a copy via PayPal. I will let folks know when it arrives.
Mollinary
OK first game played - ECW 600 point basic stuff, Gallopers, ironsides, Trotters and Pike & Musket, nothing weird but a sprinkling of specials like Motivated, feared, Agitators & Preachers, iron Officers, etc.
Basic first reaction: LOVE'EM :D
The Reaction system replacing Opportunity and ZOC is a godsend, simple, clean but much more nuanced, damn fine move.
Exhaustion after 50%+ VBU loss, good move, curs out those extreme results.
Change in measurement works well - we played in 6mm with units based 60mm x 30mm (what can I say I was deluded by the tedium that is Polemos ECW) and we could have played the game on a 3' x 3' table comfortably.
As it was we didn't get to the infantry engagement but had lots of fun with the horse wings. Very nioce balance of Gallopers vs Trotters and Reiters, the additional special rules really had impact and balance, very impressed. The Royalist fops did what they did and raced about chewing units up but the stolid trotters wore them down in the end.
All in all, very clean, very crisp and good historical flavoured results.
A big thumbs up :-bd from all concerned.
I cannot see us returning to ZOCs and opportunity for ancients now - this really is a significant improvement.
I'm often hesitant about rules with lots of special unit rules but in this instance they really are the icing on the cake, just enough flavour to make a difference.
All in all can't recommend them more - top notch game, top notch fun, nuff said :D
Sounds encouraging and thanks for the heads up. Spoke to Northstar yesterday and the rules should be with them in the next fortnight.
Good to hear that cavalry is balanced. One of the things I found frustrating with other sets covering the ECW is that gallops are all conquering. The only other rule set that evens this out is Fog Renaissance which is why I stick with them even though they are long winded.
Caliver already stocking. My copy arrived from Dave within 24 hours.
One thing we did miss was the complete change to the victory conditions - we had wondered why it was possible to withdraw units voluntarily from the field. :-\
Now I understand why - exhausted units count their VD to command loss, eliminated units count double VD to command loss. Once a command reaches 0 VDC all units test discipline every turn, failure means its eliminated, commands can disappear wholesale quickly! So as soon as you are close, start withdrawing the used up crud. Once the army VDT reaches 0 - game over, army routs. There are also nice touches in that Baggage and occupied villages count towards your army VDT (the prossies help here too :o)
Only down side is that it can lead to the command being reduced to a sort of single super unit with attached general - I'm sure that will be the tournament approach. Not that that worries me but I'm sure it'll get mentioned. :-B
The more we review the game the more completely sold on the revised Reaction system over the old Opportunity and ZOC system, no more geometry or micro measuring, just plenty of decision nodes. We hadn't appreciated at first that reactions were limited to one attempt per unit per turn, not one reaction. As you have different options depending on what the enemy is doing and different chances of success depending on what you are/they are doing it leads to some great narrative moments.
For instance we had gallopers watching trotters advancing past them - do they attempt to opportunity charge (allowed against moving units) but with a significant chance of failure, or wait for them to declare a charge when you can counter-charge (which for gallopers is pretty much a dead cert) but what if they just move into position and don't charge, lost opportunity. Not to mention you might want to keep the reaction for later, etc. Great stuff, total involvement all the time but without watching for geometric infringement, just observing for an opportunity. More like commanding, less like rules lawyering :D
In the end we had precisely one question unresolved, not bad for a first game and indicates how much more clearly written Baroque is compared to Impetus. Which bodes well for Impetus II.
Oh the question: once withdrawn does a unit still count as exhausted for VDC calculation if it was already exhausted. In fact do withdrawn units count as exhausted regardless. We could see this both ways. Anyway one question which is more clarification than anything, not bad for a first game.
:-bd Highly recommended :-bd
:D
Double VD? I don't think I want to know....
It's an unfortunate abbreviation but that's Italians for you ;D
And I've just had a clarification and update from Lorenzo on the Impetus Forum which I'll quote here as it's good news :D
Quote
oh, yes they count. Once a Unit is exhausted it immediately counts over the Victory Conditions. Then it is up to you to decide to withdraw or risk to loose more. Or you can also withdraw a Unit before being Exhausted.
Impetus 2 will be based on the same reaction system. Baroque was the occasion to test some different ideas. Impetus 2 should be a mix of Impetus (as we know now) and Baroque. Of course this in theory, as playtesting will help to tune the whole thing.
We have draft of more Baroque lists. Those published were those tested. Just the time to check the points (we changed here and there but working on the tested list and so I have to check that the other lists have the updated points) and I will upload.
In the future I will publish the official supplement but I prefer to test the lists before that as betas.
Also, in the official lists I want to add Characters like Wallenstein, Rupert, Gustavus Adolphus, Tilly etc
Well I think that's good news - Impetus II will have Reaction not Opportunity, huzzah! :-bd
That really is a bonus. Cheers for that Zippee.
Thanks for the play test and review. The reaction rules do seem well conceived and -as you said- add interesting sets of decision points (rather than simply mechanical responses). Also the way units degrade seems to have its own set of decision points.
I am about to do the "battle" of Fyvie with my own rules but will then redo with Baroque to see if I can fiddle my force structures to work.
I would like nothing better than a standard rules set that I can use with my eccentric (solo) gaming that would allow others to relate to it :)
Continuing to read through the rules and I'm beginning to see how Impetus could be tidied up and streamlined. I hope the competition boys don't get their teeth into these and ruin them with demands for this tweak and that tweak to satisfy their competetive whims. I have currently dumped all the tweaks to the original Impetus and just play the original rules, replacing opportunity with discipline reaction.
The competition heads on the Impetus Forum do not seem to be engaging with any discussion of Baroque.
Perhaps it's too new :-\
I actually quite like most of the "tweaks" presented in Advanced Impetus (naturally I ignore all the terrain placement and tournament deployment rule stuff) but things like the bonus support for covered flanks works well.
Obviously stripping ZOC and declared Opportunity for Discipline Test Reaction is a big change - not sure how my lads would feel about that. But as I think we'll be concentrating on Baroque for some while it's probably moot. With luck Impetus II will be out by then anyway ;D
Oh, I've just realised that in all my comments above I neglected to mention one other obvious and significant change from Impetus. There are no Group Moves or Group Formations in Baroque, each base (or collection of bases, depending on preference) is its own thing - kind of like Battlegroups in FOG I suppose.
And I failed my Will save and sent Leon a starter order for ECW/TYW stuff, oops! Better finish the last unit of Napoleonics quick then :D
What's an average Baroque army like in terms of size. Just trying to guage how many figures might be needed.
(And should I not bother with my ideas for an ECW variant of "Warband"?)
An interesting question. The author stipulates a relatively small number of figures needed (about 150). However, if you look at the 28mm photos in the rules the units look pretty thin for my taste. Even my 28mm units are twice the size of his, but with the same footprint. However my preferred scale is 15mm for ECW and I have modelled my armies along the lines of Fat Frank. I think this style would look terrific in 10mm as well.
There is a link to Fat Frank's site on the Peter Pig website at the end of the ECW section. Well worth a look for Baroque inspiration in any scale.
Hard to estimate numbers of figures as there is no relationship between troop type and numbers as there is in say FOG.
The 600 point (smallish but enough for an evening) ECW game we played as our trial was basically as follows:
Each side had 4 Horse units (Gallopers, Trotters or Reiters depending on doctrine but all essentially the same look); 6 Pike & Musket units, a light gun, 1 C-in-C and 2 Sub-Commanders.
The ECW lists each allow for around 12 Horse, 12 P&M, 2 Dragoon, 2 Commanded Shot, 1 Forlorn Hope, 2 guns, 4 commanders and a Baggage Park if that helps
Basing convention for 10mm is not established as its brand new but the rulebook suggests two options:
a) use the 15mm sizes with more figures
b) use half the 28mm sizes with 15mm measurements
(usually measurement is in units equal to half the unit frontage, 9cm for 28mm figs and 6cm for 15mm figs - presumably they don't want to impose 4.5cm movement on you :o)
Anyway I'm going with the 15mm standard using more figures :D
As such each Horse unit will be a 120mm x 40mm (30mm as an option) base - I reckon that'll be 12 to 16 figures or thereabouts in 10mm. Each Pike & Musket unit will be 120mm x 40mm (60mm as an option) - I reckon I'll get about 48 figures on that. Guns are on 40mm square bases. Commanders how you see fit - I'll use circles with 2-4 officers.
Bear in mind this is theoretical until Leon gets my order in the post and I can do some mock-ups. We're testing the rules with my 6mm units (on 60x30mm bases which has the advantage of meaning the game plays comfortably on a 3' table) :o
Of course you can optionally use smaller bases to make up the units - so something like 6 FOG bases (to get the 40mm depth) which essentially means a Baroque unit is a FOG Battlegroup. I just like the diorama effect and ease of movement of one big base. It limits using them for other rules though, so horses/courses as usual. I think landsknechts and tercios on 120mm square bases, packed with deployed figures will look the business though ;D
The other option is to use half the size of 28mm units, which results in 90mm frontage for 10mm (presumably that could be multiple 30mm bases too). By the same token you could put any smaller bases together so long as you achieve a consistent unit frontage.
Quote from: Leman on 26 March 2016, 10:51:08 AM
There is a link to Fat Frank's site on the Peter Pig website at the end of the ECW section. Well worth a look for Baroque inspiration in any scale.
Hmm, I think you mean Fat Wally - not sure Kev will take to being renamed Frank :D
Direct link to Kev's Basic Baroque pages - http://www.fat-wally.com/BasicBaroqueECW.html
Quote from: Zippee on 26 March 2016, 12:02:14 PM
Hard to estimate numbers of figures as there is no relationship between troop type and numbers as there is in say FOG.
Basing convention for 10mm is not established as its brand new but the rulebook suggests two options:
a) use the 15mm sizes with more figures
b) use half the 28mm sizes with 15mm measurements
As such each Horse unit will be a 120mm x 40mm (30mm as an option) base - I reckon that'll be 12 to 16 figures or thereabouts in 10mm. Each Pike & Musket unit will be 120mm x 40mm (60mm as an option) - I reckon I'll get about 48 figures on that. Guns are on 40mm square bases. Commanders how you see fit - I'll use circles with 2-4 officers.
Well that is a fortunate coincidence! My 10mm are currently based for Volley and bayonet on 1 1/2" squares. I get three of these in one of my Warbases movement trays. So that is 3x37.5mm wide by 37.5mm deep. With the edges of the movement base that comes to just over 120mm by 47mm! I get between 15 and 18 horse on one of those bases, and 40 infantry (so few because my musketeers are in two ranks of 10 while the pikes are four ranks of 4. Add in officers and colours, and you get about 40.
I wish postie would hurry up!
Mollinary
Sounds like you're all sorted then :D
My postie has been - he had several bills for me!
Bills, they're no good to me, I can't play with bills. I can pay 'em but that's not as much fun. :'(
Sorry Zippee, your quite right. Fat Frank is the roads man and Fat Wally is the 15mm figure painter.
Thanks for the replies chaps. Much appreciated.
OK, I give in, just ordered a copy :)
Good man!
Pretty sure you wont regret it :-\
On the other hand it cost me a sizeable order with Pendraken ;D
But that's Ok as the profit from that will keep Leon in sun tan oil for the Summer :o
Quote from: Zippee on 28 March 2016, 04:50:51 PM
But that's Ok as the profit from that will keep Leon in sun tan oil for the Summer :o
Ah - the sun actually DOES shine there then!
Middlesbrough?
Sure it's all beach resorts and swimming pools down on the Teesside Riviera
You've never been there then Zippee?
A more wretched hive of scum and villainy .... :)
Quote from: mollinary on 22 March 2016, 08:40:06 PM
I went to their website, went to the shop, and bought a copy via PayPal. I will let folks know when it arrives.
Mollinary
Arrived this morning - a week isn't bad coming from Italy over the long holiday weekend. Looks good, but not yet had a lot of time to read through.
Mollinary
It still has a few quirks in the English version, where there appear to be literal translations rather than colloquial English, like what she is spoken, but it does play well, having had some games down the Liverpool club.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 28 March 2016, 09:27:02 PM
You've never been there then Zippee?
A more wretched hive of scum and villainy .... :)
I was born there mate. . .
OK - I really like Baroque! So much in fact that I am on the verge of making a total commitment to it. I have used my kit-bashed rules but simply can't get them to the point where I am happy (plus too much effort that could be spent on other things).
For my Celtic Fringe (17th century) stuff I have had to add a few new troop types AND I had to do one major breakage - allow some troop types to be grouped in a couple specific ways. Turns out that I now also own Impetus and discover that it allows units to be grouped! Baroque has the concept of "Massed Unit" but no mention of grouping. Any thoughts on grouping and why it was left out of Baroque?
Incidentally I have not play-tested (solo) with groups sufficiently to know if they WILL work.
I am going to join the Impetus forum but I now consider this home (for good or ill😀) and wanted to start here with my queries.
The absence of groups in Baroque is a good thing IMO.
Groups were a forced abstract to reinforce battlelines instead of firework displays of individual units, common in many ancients games under other rules.
With the larger bases and self-imposed battalia and tercio type units (and exactly what scale representation these are is left deliberately vague) which already have the subunits operating together the need to artificially glue stuff together is not needed.
Now in Impetus command range is much greater and the morale system is very different, such that a general's influence can be passed down entire lines of groups, so your warband of celts 12 bases/units long is still in command even if C class, as long as none of the units are disordered as the command range is automatic through contiguous ordered units.
In Baroque the VD concept of exhausted and withdrawn with much smaller command ranges from generals not permanently attached to specific units means that commands must form in greater depth in chequer board or multi wave formations if they are to stay in range. A Poor Command rating only has a range of 2BU - you just cant keep many units within that unless they are in front and behind - 3 wide is your limit.
In short groups don't stand alone they are integrated into the morale and command system.
Massed units are similar but not the same as Impetus Large Units - combat is entirely different as is the formation of the unit.
Many of the developments in Baroque are making their way into Impetus II but its unclear whether the refined morale system will and the jury is also out on the necessity to keep groups. I doubt large units will remain in the way they are currently.
There is a whole thread ion the Impetus Forum dedicated to suggestions for Impetus II and another for suggestions for inclusion in Advanced Impetus (the downloadable, annually updated errata and additional rules addition) wherein ideas are tested and then changed, adapted or dropped after a year's or so playtesting
Zippee thanks for the thoughtful and useful reply.
I have been sorting through the threads on the "New" Impetus forum and applied for posting privileges (maybe they'll let me on :))
While Baroque does not specify a specific ground scale or operational level it seems to me it would play best at brigade level. I am forcing it down one level (where so far it seems to work). The base (sabot) I am using with 10mm figures is 80mm x 40mm which comfortably accommodates three of my 1x1" stands. This gives the ability to easily assemble different unit types.
I am interested primarily in reproducing historic battles and playing them solo (out of necessity). My particular interest is warfare in Scotland and Ireland during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. This often deals with armies whose Command Structures (CS) are poor (you have already mentioned the 2BU control span and the constrains it imposes) AND widely varying unit size. My sabot bases produce horse units of about 75 (six figures), warbands of around 90 (12 -14 figures), and up to 300 (20-24 figures) for a Musket&Pike (P&M) unit. Frequently, of course, the historic Order of Battle will require around 600 for the P&M unit. So in this particular case I am grouping two P&Ms into a single unit aligned side-by-side (and won't wheeling be a glacial process!). I will admit that the side-by-side unit does reduce the problem of a poor CS but not sufficiently -IMO- to greatly effect the excellent point you made about rightly forcing you to use historic formations (Checker boarding, etc.). Greater depth to the base (as is done for tercios) would of course work but ignores the beginning of the transition to linear tactics in my period of interest.
I set up on a 5' x 6.5' surface which allows in 10mm for plenty of maneuver room for most scenarios. I had previously worked out a ground scale of 6" equals 100 yards (or meters) which gives me a systematic way to reproduce battlefields from maps (although selective compression is sometimes necessary). Because of the available space I am currently using base width (80mm) as 1 BU (rather than 1/2)
I Don't have enough data yet to know if the paired P&Ms will work. If it doesn't I will simply use two separate P&Ms and deal with it (in some ways it would be like using Pike & Shotte). I am continuing to like the Baroque system so much I'm ready to make a full commitment to it. (Let's not tell my wife! ;))
The other grouping applications I'm messing with involves "depth" grouping to form mass units. For example a clan levy warband grouped behind a "first line" highland warband (but without the VBU additive effect used in Impetus.)
I like the way the VDT works and will start incorporating it into the scenario work-ups that I do for historic battles. If I played against other humans it would be the way to go.
Also the action - reaction (and /or evasion) mechanism is very good - although reading the rules on these points was at first rather opaque and getting the meaning of some of the sentences a chore (Not that I write clear sentences either). Still - coupled with the initiative/activation and the decision to chance further movement - it seems to lend itself well to solo play.
No problem,
Playing solo you're very much free to dabble with tweaks to your hearts content.
Your area of interest is somewhat to the edge of mainstream, so it may well be that tweaks are necessary.
In fact I may go so far as to say that the level of warfare is such that Impetus is almost the more appropriate set of rules with some of the elements of Baroque grafted on.
I do think you tie yourself in knots trying to apply logical consistent ground and time scales to wargames, you say Baroque feels brigade based, I think it feels battalia based but the army size is bathtubbed so the battalia represent brigades.
If paired P&M units are the size you need for basic units then that should really be what one unit is. Your table size is pretty large by the standards of the game so I wonder if that's part of the scaling issue? As does the fact you're using 80mm bases with an 80mm BU - try switching to 160mm bases with 80mm BU, you effectively have your units fitting the same footprint as before.
I'm not convinced about the double base unit of massed foot. Baroque massed units are a very different beast from Impetus large units.
As I say you may be in a sub period that lends itself to Impetus with Baroque elements rather than Baroque itself.
I know that Lorenzo is talking about other armies and areas having supplemental rules alongside the lists so that may be true for you. For instance he's admitted to developing a WSS supplement with tweaks to extend Baroque into the 18th C.
Food for thought
Again appreciate your comments and your clear experience with the Impetus system. Have now read many of your posts at their forums (old and new) which are also helpful in informing my thinking. In fact they should consider making you a forum moderator over there :). I am still waiting to be approved to post.
Yeah - I am definately out of the mainstream in the selection of my wargaming focus. It is hard to glean lots of information about how some forces were armed, organized, and fought since they have such a mythic and cultural component (which in turn incites passionate opinion).
Also have reached back to Advanced Impetus for ideas and play-tested concepts - it may be that Impetus II will be a more seamless join with Baroque. I found yesterday an experimental list of armies that Lorenzo did for Baroque (still using the Impetus BU values) which includes some of the troop types I need. These will need work but a good basis for discussion.
You've again brought up good points about basing and ground scale. I still have the problem of larger P&M on one side opposing smaller P&M with some indigenous forces mixed in on the other (hence your suggestion about using Impetus I think). Incidentally I am now about to port my WoR to Impetus basing. In for a penny in for a pound.
You're very welcome, glad I've been of some assistance.
The Impetus Forum sadly isn't what it once was as there's quite a tournament crowd peddling their brand of interpretation and opinion :-\ these days and at times getting a bit snotty. To the extent that I'd pretty much demoted myself to lurker until Baroque finally arrived.
I took the basing plunge a few years back - it was an undertaking to be sure but worth it in the end, not least because everything now has a uniform basing scheme, same basing grit, same flock, same bases, etc.
Just got home from holiday to find my copy of Baroque waiting for me. I am looking forward to reading it later. :)