Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => Firelocks to Maxims (1680 - 1900) => Topic started by: pierre the shy on 22 February 2016, 08:06:47 AM

Title: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: pierre the shy on 22 February 2016, 08:06:47 AM
A few questions to those more knowledgeable than myself on depicting regular British Army regiments during 1715/19 and 1745 Jacobite rebellions.

I am waiting on a couple of V&B books on the Jacobite rebellions to turn up in the mail from the US before committing one way or the other to this project.  

I have found a very useful site http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Category:Land_Unit that shows both the Kings and Regimental colours of most regular regiments involved in the Seven Years War (as well as many other countries involved in that conflict).

Following on from Paul R's very successful 10mm AWI project using V&B wing scale rules I will use them for the '45 to start with, may go back to the eariler rebellions later.  

In wing scale each regular British regiment of around 400 men would equate to 3 stands of 16 figures each. My questions are as follows:

1. Can I use the British infantry and cavalry standards depicted on the SYW site above with confidence for the units in 1745 or did British infantry and cavalry standards change significantly from 1745 to the SYW period?

2. Were the Kings and Regimental colours grouped together in the centre of the unit when deployed or could/should I show more than one stand of the same unit with a separate colour?
Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: jimduncanuk on 22 February 2016, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: pierre the shy on 22 February 2016, 08:06:47 AM

2. Were the Kings and Regimental colours grouped together in the centre of the unit when deployed or could/should I show more than one stand of the same unit with a separate colour?


In real life the two colours would always be posted together, Kings colour on the right (facing forward). When deployed in line the colour party would be centred on the unit but perhaps withdrawn a little if under fire. In column they would be leading. In square they would be safe in the centre.

Guards however have their Kings and Regimental colours swapped over but still deployed as above.

In wargames life they are your figures and you can do what you like.

Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: pierre the shy on 23 February 2016, 09:24:07 AM
Thanks for the reply Jim - I will use one Regimental Colour per battalion   - how revolutionary!!  :o
Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: Bill Braham on 14 March 2016, 01:48:22 PM
pierre,

The system of Kings and regimental colours was only formalised by Royal Warrant in 1747 and subsequently reaffirmed in clothing warrants of 1751 and 1768. Before 1747 things were somewhat fluid and not quite as systematic as there was not a specific layout in the period before 47 warrant. What the warrant did was to lay down a specific size and format for the colours

So in answer to your question about using the SYW Koronoskaf material on British colours it is not really correct for 1745. However as we do not really know in detail what colours were actually flown in the '45 (with the exception one of Barrels which survives and a couple of dragoon guidons) I think you can probably get away with using the 7YW material.
Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: Zippee on 14 March 2016, 05:27:41 PM
And by the way that's Government and Jacobite Forces not British (nor even English, or German or lowland or highland or Scottish or Irish or protestant or catholic) - it's effectively a civil war  8)

Plenty of both (all) nationalities (viewpoints) on both (all) sides
Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: pierre the shy on 14 March 2016, 09:26:29 PM
Well the two v and b jacobite rebellion books arrived so I am currently producing some card stands for a test refight of Prestonpans.

I am using Government and Jacobite to discribe each side now Zippee ☺

Though we play war games with lots of different nations armed forces this does not mean that one subscribes to the actual political philosphy of the nation or period concerned.

I myself stick to conflicts prior to 1989 and anything after 1945 is usually "what if" stuff anyway.
Title: Re: Depicting British Army Regiments during the Jacobite Uprisings
Post by: Bill Braham on 15 March 2016, 12:26:16 AM
Zippee,

The 'Government Army' of the 1745 Jacobite rebellion is, however you slice it, the British Army. It was a force raised and maintained by taxation levied by the government of Great Britain and sanctioned by the army estimates and the annual passage of the Mutiny Act by the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Its members swore allegiance to bear faithfull and true the then King of Great Britain. Calling it a 'Government Army' is just sophistry.

I would agree that the rebellion was a civil war but pretending that the forces on one side was not the British Army really does no justice to anyone. As to the Jacobite forces for all I know they have every justification in believing themselves to be a Royal Army being commanded by, in their eyes, a prince of the blood on behalf of the Jacobite claimant to the thrones thrones of Scotland and England and displaying the Royal Standard.